To Save Conservatism

 

shutterstock_461975242If one believes conservatism is the only cure for what ails the nation, then 2016 is a bleak year. We have before us a choice of a dedicated leftist whose entire public life has been dedicated to the destruction of our republic (and replacing it with yet another European-styel socialist welfare state), or a guy who can be charitably described as “not a conservative.” Because Hillary Clinton is such a well known statist and a threat to our way of life, it would seem obvious that the only viable option for conservatives would be to oppose her with everything they have. Under any normal set of circumstances that would be exactly the right course of action. Indeed, many have claimed that it’s so obviously correct that there can be no other argument. Ben Shapiro, however, takes a different view:

That brings us to the real reason to oppose Trump’s candidacy: the attempt to turn the conservative movement into a nationalist populist one, complete with shilling for Trump’s incomprehensible decisions and statements. If you believe that the only solution to America’s problems is true conservatism, your greatest fear is not a Hillary presidency: It’s the perversion of the conservative movement itself, the corruption of conservatism in favor of power. Hillary Clinton’s presidency does not snuff out conservatism, even though it provides a serious danger to the republic. Trump’s presidency does.

I share this view. Conservatism is the solution to our problems. Not voting for Trump increases the likelihood of for four more years of an anti-conservative president who will do everything she can to obstruct conservative ideas and policies. However, a vote for Trump is a vote against conservatism itself. If conservatism has outlived its usefulness and must pass then so be it, but I cannot take an active part in bludgeoning it to death while it still draws breath. Hillary is just another external threat against which we have established defenses. Trump represents an internal rot eating away the very foundation of what America is and what we fight to conserve.

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  1. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940.

    Well, since almost by definition “conservative victories” are mostly simply the blocking of Leftist victories, every day that the USA isn’t yet a totalitarian communist state could be considered a conservative victory.

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Shoulda been here in 2011.  The same thing was said about nonsupport for Romney, by many of the same people complaining about it now.  This amuses me greatly.

    • #31
  2. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Could Be Anyone: …and the threat of international socialism was too prominent at the time to weaken government expansion…

    Yabbut, during Eisenhower’s administration direct federal spending dropped from about 20% of GDP to about 17% of GDP.  It continued on a shallow descent towards 14% of GDP until 1975, at which point it started going up again.

    It’s not as good as the Clinton era when federal spending went from about 19% to 14% in only a decade, but it’s still pretty good.

    • #32
  3. Jocher Inactive
    Jocher
    @Jocher

    Conservative victories? Not many, but there are some.

    Highest marginal rate of income tax no longer in range of 70%

    De-regulation of airline travel

    Slow death of private sector unionism

    Revival of Originalism on Supreme Court (maybe not lasting… but it was good for a while)

    Defeat of Communism

    Squelching 1970’s stagflation

    • #33
  4. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940.

    Well, since almost by definition “conservative victories” are mostly simply the blocking of Leftist victories, every day that the USA isn’t yet a totalitarian communist state could be considered a conservative victory.

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    The lack of real victories is what has given us Trump. Real conservatives are tired of losing all the time and they are flailing around for a win. People do things when they are flailing they might not normally do. Other real conservatives are aghast at the action of those putting winning above conservative values. They cannot imagine that anyone would make those calculations. Some of those, in their sense of helplessness, are lashing out.

    If conservatives had been winning anything other than elections, they would be doing fine. But they have won elections all over the nation, and have not managed to make any changes. You cannot tell people “Vote for me now, and in 50 years things will be great.” Nor, can you call voters not listening to that a moral failing.

    This is not over in 2016. Trump will not fix it. Clinton will not fix it. The pain will continue. This is because the elite do not want to face the tough problems. None of them is willing to go to the American people and be honest. They might and be shot down, but I don’t seen any of them trying.

    The current malaise will continue until the citizens of the Republic have no choice but to make the hard choices.

    A massive part of the fight for conservatism that is not discussed as much as the political theater on Capitol Hill is the cultural fight beyond the beltway. Given that those more conservatively inclined Americans, even if they don’t self-identify as conservatives, but still adhere to and try to protect the rights of gun ownership, freedom of speech, association, religion are quite engaged and sometimes they are victorious beating back against onerous legislation, school mandates or fiats from city councils or county boards of supervisors. It helps, of course, that those fights can be highlighted and occasionally supported from the wells of Congress and the bully-pulpit of the Presidency. To the extent that we have a Republican (in name only) president who is more inclined to deal with Democrat socialists to shove down our throats more big government solutions and central control of the economy (not to mention his other numerous deficiencies) those more local and regional fighters for conservative values will be on their own. This is why a Trump presidency can have a deleterious effect on more than just what happens in Congress but more broadly some of the smaller but very important fights beyond the beltway.

    • #34
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940.

    Well, since almost by definition “conservative victories” are mostly simply the blocking of Leftist victories, every day that the USA isn’t yet a totalitarian communist state could be considered a conservative victory.

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Well, thanks for ignoring the gist of that whole post and making it all about a Trump thing.

    • #35
  6. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Bryan G. Stephens:I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940. There are many leftist ones.

    I am open to items where conservatism has advanced, if you have examples.

    Taxes. Crime. Welfare. Foreign Policy.

    • #36
  7. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: What we see here, in part, is that National Review really would not rather be ruled by the first 200 people in the phone book, that they too, really want experts in charge.

    They never argued that they didn’t prefer to have experts in charge, as long as they’re credible and honest experts, when that’s an option.

    The line is “I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”

    The line is a dig at Harvard (and arguably the Ivy League in general), not at experts. It was an attack on the Beltway idea that all the best experts come from the insular and out-of-touch world of the Ivy League.

    Which appears to be where our Conservative elite want their experts to come from. They appear just as out of touch.

    May I note that Donald Trump is an Ivy League graduate?

    • #37
  8. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens:I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940. There are many leftist ones.

    I am open to items where conservatism has advanced, if you have examples.

    Taxes. Crime. Welfare. Foreign Policy.

    Gun rights. Rollback of unfettered abortion. Right to work and the decline of union control.

    • #38
  9. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: What we see here, in part, is that National Review really would not rather be ruled by the first 200 people in the phone book, that they too, really want experts in charge.

    They never argued that they didn’t prefer to have experts in charge, as long as they’re credible and honest experts, when that’s an option.

    The line is “I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”

    The line is a dig at Harvard (and arguably the Ivy League in general), not at experts. It was an attack on the Beltway idea that all the best experts come from the insular and out-of-touch world of the Ivy League.

    Which appears to be where our Conservative elite want their experts to come from. They appear just as out of touch.

    May I note that Donald Trump is an Ivy League graduate?

    UPENN is ivy league?

    • #39
  10. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Jocher:Conservative victories? Not many, but there are some.

    Highest marginal rate of income tax no longer in range of 70%

    De-regulation of airline travel

    Slow death of private sector unionism

    Revival of Originalism on Supreme Court (maybe not lasting… but it was good for a while)

    Defeat of Communism

    Squelching 1970’s stagflation

    Also, deregulation of craft beer and interstate trucking! Woot woot!

    • #40
  11. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940.

    Well, since almost by definition “conservative victories” are mostly simply the blocking of Leftist victories, every day that the USA isn’t yet a totalitarian communist state could be considered a conservative victory.

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Well, thanks for ignoring the gist of that whole post and making it all about a Trump thing.

    Actually the comment is in keeping with the last paragraph of the OP.

    • #41
  12. rgbact Inactive
    rgbact
    @romanblichar

    Bryan G. Stephens:
    I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940. There are many leftist ones.

    This is the kind of mentality that Trumpsters are wallowing in and has led to this nightmare. Utter defeatism, leading to craving conservative destruction.

    • #42
  13. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Guruforhire:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: What we see here, in part, is that National Review really would not rather be ruled by the first 200 people in the phone book, that they too, really want experts in charge.

    They never argued that they didn’t prefer to have experts in charge, as long as they’re credible and honest experts, when that’s an option.

    The line is “I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”

    The line is a dig at Harvard (and arguably the Ivy League in general), not at experts. It was an attack on the Beltway idea that all the best experts come from the insular and out-of-touch world of the Ivy League.

    Which appears to be where our Conservative elite want their experts to come from. They appear just as out of touch.

    May I note that Donald Trump is an Ivy League graduate?

    UPENN is ivy league?

    Yes.

    • #43
  14. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Bryan G. Stephens: That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Define “real victory”.

    • #44
  15. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Misthiocracy:

    Guruforhire:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: What we see here, in part, is that National Review really would not rather be ruled by the first 200 people in the phone book, that they too, really want experts in charge.

    They never argued that they didn’t prefer to have experts in charge, as long as they’re credible and honest experts, when that’s an option.

    The line is “I am obliged to confess I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.”

    The line is a dig at Harvard (and arguably the Ivy League in general), not at experts. It was an attack on the Beltway idea that all the best experts come from the insular and out-of-touch world of the Ivy League.

    Which appears to be where our Conservative elite want their experts to come from. They appear just as out of touch.

    May I note that Donald Trump is an Ivy League graduate?

    UPENN is ivy league?

    Yes.

    holy hell.

    • #45
  16. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jocher:Conservative victories? Not many, but there are some.

    Highest marginal rate of income tax no longer in range of 70%

    De-regulation of airline travel

    Slow death of private sector unionism

    Revival of Originalism on Supreme Court (maybe not lasting… but it was good for a while)

    Defeat of Communism

    Squelching 1970’s stagflation

    By the numbers:

    The rate was never really that high thanks to loopholes. I admit taxes are better, but we now have the highest corp one in the world. Tax rates are always going up and down, and the real issue is that there is income tax at all.

    Air-travel is pretty well regulated to be de-regulated. Most everything people dislike about air travel is government caused. I will give it as a conservative “win” though.

    Private Sector Unions dying have more to do with changing economy than any policies. Federal DOL laws continue to force Union like effects onto even “at will” states. I am in an “at will” state, and I don’t feel like that at all.

    Supreme Court – none of that will last. It will die in the next two years, as cases are brought before a 5/4 split that will wipe out everything

    Communism is still alive and well in China. We beat the USSR, which is now resurgent

    We have had a decade of less than 3% growth. Not a lasting win.

    • #46
  17. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Guruforhire:

    Misthiocracy:

    UPENN is ivy league?

    Yes.

    holy hell.

    I dunno. I have a good friend who went to UPenn. He doesn’t seem like his soul is damned.

    ;-)

    • #47
  18. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jocher:Conservative victories? Not many, but there are some.

    Highest marginal rate of income tax no longer in range of 70%

    De-regulation of airline travel

    Slow death of private sector unionism

    Revival of Originalism on Supreme Court (maybe not lasting… but it was good for a while)

    Defeat of Communism

    Squelching 1970’s stagflation

    By the numbers:

    The rate was never really that high thanks to loopholes. I admit taxes are better, but we now have the highest corp one in the world. Tax rates are always going up and down, and the real issue is that there is income tax at all.

    Air-travel is pretty well regulated to be de-regulated. Most everything people dislike about air travel is government caused. I will give it as a conservative “win” though.

    Private Sector Unions dying have more to do with changing economy than any policies. Federal DOL laws continue to force Union like effects onto even “at will” states. I am in an “at will” state, and I don’t feel like that at all.

    Supreme Court – none of that will last. It will die in the next two years, as cases are brought before a 5/4 split that will wipe out everything

    Communism is still alive and well in China. We beat the USSR, which is now resurgent

    We have had a decade of less than 3% growth. Not a lasting win.

    When you define victory as “nothing short of perfection” you are guaranteed to be perpetually disappointed.

    • #48
  19. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens: That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Define “real victory”.

    I did define real victories for the left in #16, but to save you time scrolling here:

    • Income Tax
    • Direct Election of Senators
    • Expansion of the Commerce Clause
    • Expansion of Eminent Domain
    • Abortion as a right
    • Affirmative Action & Racial Quotas
    • Federal Control of Southern Voting Districts
    • Federal control of Education
    • EPA
    • ATF
    • Imposition of Same Sex Marriage
    • Federal Labor Unions
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Withholding
    • Social Security
    • #49
  20. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jocher:Conservative victories? Not many, but there are some.

    Highest marginal rate of income tax no longer in range of 70%

    De-regulation of airline travel

    Slow death of private sector unionism

    Revival of Originalism on Supreme Court (maybe not lasting… but it was good for a while)

    Defeat of Communism

    Squelching 1970’s stagflation

    By the numbers:

    The rate was never really that high thanks to loopholes. I admit taxes are better, but we now have the highest corp one in the world. Tax rates are always going up and down, and the real issue is that there is income tax at all.

    Air-travel is pretty well regulated to be de-regulated. Most everything people dislike about air travel is government caused. I will give it as a conservative “win” though.

    Private Sector Unions dying have more to do with changing economy than any policies. Federal DOL laws continue to force Union like effects onto even “at will” states. I am in an “at will” state, and I don’t feel like that at all.

    Supreme Court – none of that will last. It will die in the next two years, as cases are brought before a 5/4 split that will wipe out everything

    Communism is still alive and well in China. We beat the USSR, which is now resurgent

    We have had a decade of less than 3% growth. Not a lasting win.

    When you define victory as “nothing short of perfection” you are guaranteed to be perpetually disappointed.

    I have not done that. I defined the sort of lasting victory I want to see, based upon the lasting victories of the left. I just reposted them. Please review and get back to me.

    • #50
  21. Bob Laing Member
    Bob Laing
    @

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Well, thanks for ignoring the gist of that whole post and making it all about a Trump thing.

    Save the snark. No need to dismiss a comment made in good faith. In comment #26 you say,

    The lack of real victories is what has given us Trump. Real conservatives are tired of losing all the time and they are flailing around for a win.

    Some portion of professed “real conservatives” turned to Trump because of their incorrect belief that their conservative representatives hadn’t been fighting the good fight for the better part of the last century despite being outnumbered.  In many cases, slowing down progressive advances was the best possible outcome given the circumstances.  I think they deserve to be commended.  It seems that others think they should be condemned.

    • #51
  22. Misthiocracy Member
    Misthiocracy
    @Misthiocracy

    Guruforhire:

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Misthiocracy:

    Bryan G. Stephens: I cannot name one lasting conservative victory since 1940.

    Well, since almost by definition “conservative victories” are mostly simply the blocking of Leftist victories, every day that the USA isn’t yet a totalitarian communist state could be considered a conservative victory.

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Shoulda been here in 2011. The same thing was said about nonsupport for Romney, by many of the same people complaining about it now. This amuses me greatly.

    People were arguing that Romney would speed up the descent into a progressive dystopia faster than Obama would? Really?

    • #52
  23. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens: That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Define “real victory”.

    I did define real victories for the left in #16, but to save you time scrolling here:

    • Income Tax
    • Direct Election of Senators
    • Expansion of the Commerce Clause
    • Expansion of Eminent Domain
    • Abortion as a right
    • Affirmative Action & Racial Quotas
    • Federal Control of Southern Voting Districts
    • Federal control of Education
    • EPA
    • ATF
    • Imposition of Same Sex Marriage
    • Federal Labor Unions
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Withholding
    • Social Security

    At least 6 of those things would require Constitutional amendments to address – requiring more than just a simple political party to achieve. What would you consider victory on these items? Elimination completely? Because the problem is not conservatives or Republicans but “The American People”. Remember the Republicans tried to reform Social Security in a tiny way during the Bush Administration and the American People revolted against the idea. If you want to punish conservatism for the fact that large majorities of the American People like free stuff then I suggest you review how a Democratic Republic works.

    • #53
  24. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Bob Laing:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Critics of the #nevertrump position like saying that not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary. If that’s the case, not supporting “slowing them down” means that you are implicitly supporting “speeding them up”. Trump is “speeding them up” personified.

    Well, thanks for ignoring the gist of that whole post and making it all about a Trump thing.

    Save the snark. No need to dismiss a comment made in good faith. In comment #26 you say,

    The lack of real victories is what has given us Trump. Real conservatives are tired of losing all the time and they are flailing around for a win.

    Some portion of professed “real conservatives” turned to Trump because of their incorrect belief that their conservative representatives hadn’t been fighting the good fight for the better part of the last century despite being outnumbered. In many cases, slowing down progressive advances was the best possible outcome given the circumstances. I think they deserve to be commended. It seems that others think they should be condemned.

    There was so much more to that post than the mention of Trump though. You took the whole thing and boiled it down into a commentary on NeverTrump. It did not feel like you read the whole thing at all. I am sorry to sound snarky, but I felt totally unheard.

    I am not calling for anyone to be commended or condemned. All I am saying is, when you don’t win any big battles, you eventually lose your followers. Conservatism has now managed to do that.

    I think that the GOP has not fought the good fight, nearly as hard as they might have. The GOP has had the power to restore power in Congress and did not do so. They could have done all sorts of things, from breaking down the budget, to increasing the size of the House of Representatives. They have done none of that. Either that means the conservatives don’t control the GOP, or they are not willing to fight as much.

    What I saw, was Cruz fighting, and being attacked from the Right. I saw Rubio try to increase immigration. I saw many conservatives sign on to both of these things. Conservatives with power have been afraid to use it.

    I hate that Trump is it. The Republic is going to get a a lot worse, because the people running it no longer care about the people living in it. And that includes conservatives and republicans.

    • #54
  25. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens: That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Define “real victory”.

    I did define real victories for the left in #16, but to save you time scrolling here:

    • Income Tax
    • Direct Election of Senators
    • Expansion of the Commerce Clause
    • Expansion of Eminent Domain
    • Abortion as a right
    • Affirmative Action & Racial Quotas
    • Federal Control of Southern Voting Districts
    • Federal control of Education
    • EPA
    • ATF
    • Imposition of Same Sex Marriage
    • Federal Labor Unions
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Withholding
    • Social Security

    At least 6 of those things would require Constitutional amendments to address – requiring more than just a simple political party to achieve. What would you consider victory on these items? Elimination completely? Because the problem is not conservatives or Republicans but “The American People”. Remember the Republicans tried to reform Social Security in a tiny way during the Bush Administration and the American People revolted against the idea. If you want to punish conservatism for the fact that large majorities of the American People like free stuff then I suggest you review how a Democratic Republic works.

    I don’t want to punish conservatism for anything. I am saying that without victories, conservatism cannot maintain followers. I am not making a judgement call about that. Personally, I think there is a lot more they could have done that would have helped, and that I hold against them, but I don’t want to punish them.

    On a side note, ending you post with “I suggest you review how a Democratic Republic works.” is uncalled for.

    • #55
  26. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    The King Prawn: [quoting Ben Shapiro] If you believe that the only solution to America’s problems is true conservatism, your greatest fear is not a Hillary presidency: It’s the perversion of the conservative movement itself, the corruption of conservatism in favor of power.

    I find this an incredibly weak premise on which to cede the White House, Senate, and House to Leftists. Virtually nobody considers Trump a Conservative anyway. For the few who might, the taint will be there whether he wins or loses.

    Conservatism can survive a Trump presidency by loudly opposing any policy misbehavior. The Fourth Estate will certainly cooperate in that regard. Under Clinton, Conservatives will have the choice of either retreating into the shadows or being crushed at every turn.

    • #56
  27. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    I think some conservatives need to come to the realization that the majority of the American People just don’t agree with us and that its our job to stand athwart history yelling stop.

    The American People are the 300lb guy with a heart condition chowing down on bacon burgers and conservatives are the doctors. To quote the great Dr. Cox: “Sooner or later, you’re going to realize that everything we do around here, everything is a stall. We’re just trying to keep the game going, that’s all. But, ultimately, it always ends up the same way.”

    • #57
  28. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    Jamie Lockett:

    Bryan G. Stephens: That is not enough to keep me engaged. “We are slowing them down!” is not a fight I will support. You have to have real victories to maintain support.

    Define “real victory”.

    I did define real victories for the left in #16, but to save you time scrolling here:

    • Income Tax
    • Direct Election of Senators
    • Expansion of the Commerce Clause
    • Expansion of Eminent Domain
    • Abortion as a right
    • Affirmative Action & Racial Quotas
    • Federal Control of Southern Voting Districts
    • Federal control of Education
    • EPA
    • ATF
    • Imposition of Same Sex Marriage
    • Federal Labor Unions
    • Medicaid
    • Medicare
    • Withholding
    • Social Security

    At least 6 of those things would require Constitutional amendments to address – requiring more than just a simple political party to achieve. What would you consider victory on these items? Elimination completely? Because the problem is not conservatives or Republicans but “The American People”. Remember the Republicans tried to reform Social Security in a tiny way during the Bush Administration and the American People revolted against the idea. If you want to punish conservatism for the fact that large majorities of the American People like free stuff then I suggest you review how a Democratic Republic works.

    I don’t want to punish conservatism for anything. I am saying that without victories, conservatism cannot maintain followers. I am not making a judgement call about that. Personally, I think there is a lot more they could have done that would have helped, and that I hold against them, but I don’t want to punish them.

    On a side note, ending you post with “I suggest you review how a Democratic Republic works.” is uncalled for.

    I ask this in all good faith: What kind of lasting victories do you think you can achieve in a Democratic Republic where the majority of the population simply disagrees with you on the vast majority of things you just listed? How would such a victory be achieved?

    • #58
  29. The King Prawn Inactive
    The King Prawn
    @TheKingPrawn

    If you view humanity the way I do (Sowell’s constrained vision), and if you see conservatism as anchor against the tide pulling us inextricably toward destruction rather than sail driving us to where we’d rather go, and if you accept that Trump’s main effect would be cutting through the anchor chain, then he is something to fear greatly. I’m not wholly convinced we can survive Clinton, but I know for certain that we cannot survive conservatism itself being relegated to 5th place in political ideologies behind the Libertarian party and the Greens.

    • #59
  30. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Help me understand the argument that if there is no material difference between Romney and Trump, then why is Romney so objectionable and terrible? If their ideology is roughly similar then it does come down to a difference in temperament, style and intellectual bandwidth. And if that is the remaining criteria, then I can deal with Romney’s purportedly softer version of conservatism.

    If Trump ends up losing by a much larger margin than Romney, would it be because Donald was perceived as somehow too conservative? All over-the-board ideologically (read: unprincipled and shallow)? Or that Americans felt he was ill-suited psychologically, temperamentally and intellectually to be president?

    • #60
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