Samuel Francis and Middle American Radicalism

 

protectionvsfreetrade-554x330In the March 1996 issue of Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture, the late Samuel Francis (1947-2005) published an essay titled “From Household to Nation: The Middle American Populism of Pat Buchanan.” Francis wrote about Buchanan’s then-ongoing campaign for the 1996 Republican presidential nomination, framing it within the larger historical context of American conservatism and populism. He noted that the campaign had proved, up to that point, more viable and enduring than many political prognosticators expected. Francis observed:

… the courtiers and professional partisans miss the larger victory the Buchanan campaign is on the eve of winning. If Buchanan loses the nomination, it will be because his time has not yet come, but the social and political forces on which both his campaigns [1992 and 1996] have been based will not disappear, and even if he does lose, he will have won a place in history as an architect of the victory those forces will eventually build.

Francis saw Buchanan and his quixotic campaigns as the vanguard of a larger, emerging sociopolitical movement:

The reason Buchanan has not been submerged is that the torch he carries illuminates new social forces that only now are forming a common political consciousness. What is important about these forces is not that a campaign centered on them does not now win major elections (indeed, it would be a fatal error if they succeeded in winning prematurely) but that the Buchanan campaign for the first time in recent history offers them an organized mode of expression that will allow them to develop and mature their consciousness and their power.

Francis continued:

Those forces consist, of course, of the broad social and cultural spectrum of Middle America. Middle American groups are more and more coming to perceive their exploitation at the hands of the dominant elites. The exploitation works on several fronts—economically, by hypertaxation and the design of a globalized economy dependent on exports and services in place of manufacturing; culturally, by the managed destruction of Middle American norms and institutions; and politically, by the regimentation of Middle Americans under the federal leviathan.

Francis was taking note of the emergence of what, in other writings, he referred to as “Middle American radicalism,” borrowing and popularizing a term first coined by the late sociologist Donald Warren (1935-1997).

Are we now, in 2016, witnessing the maturation of this movement that Francis saw emerging two decades ago? That may indeed be the case. Like Pat Buchanan’s 1992 and 1996 campaigns, the Donald Trump campaign of 2016 defies easy categorization along the traditional left-right spectrum. But Trump seems to have struck a nerve that Buchanan either did not or could not. Francis believed that Buchanan himself was too closely wedded to the mainstream conservative movement, a belief borne out by Buchanan’s past association with Richard Nixon and his later (and still ongoing) career as a conservative journalist and commentator. Buchanan was either unable or unwilling to move out from under the conservative umbrella. Toward the end of his essay, Francis related this story from the very early days of Buchanan’s first campaign:

I recall in late 1991, in the aftermath of a wall-to-wall gathering at his home to discuss his coming campaign, I told him privately that he would be better off without all the hangers-on, direct-mail artists, fund-raising whiz kids, marketing and PR czars, and the rest of the crew that today constitutes the backbone of all that remains of the famous “Conservative Movement” and who never fail to show up on the campaign doorstep to guzzle someone else’s liquor and pocket other people’s money. “These people are defunct,” I told him. “You don’t need them, and you’re better off without them. Go to New Hampshire and call yourself a patriot, a nationalist, an America Firster, but don’t even use the word ‘conservative.’ It doesn’t mean anything any more.”

Needless to say, Buchanan did not take Francis’ advice. Whether wittingly or unwittingly, it would appear that Donald Trump has. Interesting times lie ahead.

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  1. EThompson Member
    EThompson
    @

    But Trump seems to have struck a nerve that Buchanan either did not or could not.

    True indeed. Terrific post and thank you for the historical background.

    • #31
  2. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Larry3435:Buchanan, like the John Birchers before him, was rightly chased out of the Republican Party. As Trump will be. Part of the reason I am a Republican (and, apparently, part of the GOPe) is that we are unlike the Democrats in that we do not kiss the ring of nutcases just to court their nutcase followers. We have had our own versions of Reverend Al or Socialist Bernie from time to time. We have always rejected them and chased them out. Good for us! God save the Republic if we ever stop.

    I dispute the characterization of Trump and his supporters as “nutcases.”  That characterization seems in line with Kevin Williamson’s  recent article for National Review.  A great number of white, working class Americans are suffering, and they are not racists, bigots, rubes, or bad people.  Both political parties have ignored their concerns for far too long.  That Trump is addressing those concerns explains why he has done so well thus far in the primaries.

    • #32
  3. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    EThompson:

    But Trump seems to have struck a nerve that Buchanan either did not or could not.

    True indeed. Terrific post and thank you for the historical background.

    Thanks, Liz!

    • #33
  4. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    katievs:Good post, Mike. Lots of food for thought.

    What worries me is that the movement seems to have become dissociated from moral values, a terrible development.

    One of the things that made Buchanan persuasive back then to the likes of me was that he denounced the moral relativism being pushed by the elite as much as the economic globalism.

    Now it seems the heirs of the movement couldn’t care less about moral values. That’s bad.

    We are ripe for statism.

    Thanks.  Yes, the shift away from moral values is troubling.  I think a big part of that shift can be explained by the federal government subsidizing single motherhood, and by doing so, essentially discouraging marriage.  It is quite shocking how quickly the institution of marriage has collapsed among the working class.

    • #34
  5. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    RightAngles: Go to New Hampshire and call yourself a patriot, a nationalist, an America Firster, but don’t even use the word ‘conservative.’

    The above excerpt is chilling.

    Yes, it is.  I think the conservative movement itself is, in part, responsible for the fact that more and more people are shifting toward populism and nationalism.

    • #35
  6. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Lazy_Millennial:Also explains a decent amount of the rise of Bernie Sanders, and the “Occupy Wall Street” types.

    Yes, and it’s entirely conceivable that some of Sanders’ supporters might shift their allegiance to Trump if/when Sanders ultimately drops out of the race.

    • #36
  7. EThompson Member
    EThompson
    @

    Mike LaRoche:

    katievs:Good post, Mike. Lots of food for thought.

    What worries me is that the movement seems to have become dissociated from moral values, a terrible development.

    One of the things that made Buchanan persuasive back then to the likes of me was that he denounced the moral relativism being pushed by the elite as much as the economic globalism.

    Now it seems the heirs of the movement couldn’t care less about moral values. That’s bad.

    We are ripe for statism.

    Thanks. Yes, the shift away from moral values is troubling. I think a big part of that shift can be explained by the federal government subsidizing single motherhood, and by doing so, essentially discouraging marriage. It is quite shocking how quickly the institution of marriage has collapsed among the working class.

    Couldn’t agree more. Illegitimacy is at the core of most poverty and criminal behavior.

    • #37
  8. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Jamie Lockett:A great post with much insight into what is driving the Trump Train. Of course there is a massive gulf between Buchanan and Trump on the understanding of the proper role of government and their grasp of policy. I may have disagreed with Buchanan on many things (his rejection of the modern global economy being one) but the man at least had concrete proposals the back up his rhetoric. It is true that Republicans have failed to explain how their policies and vision will benefit these Middle Americas as the OP calls them, but this does not mean that the policies and vision are wrong – just the presentation. Trump and Buchanan are often wrong on substance, but right in their focus – Republicans would do well to show how their policies are better at addressing these issues than Trumps Reign by Executive Action would be.

    Thanks, and yes, I think you are absolutely right about that.  The Republican Party has become too tone-deaf on many major issues of concern.

    • #38
  9. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Kay of MT:Very interesting post Mike. Thank you.

    Thanks, Kay!

    • #39
  10. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Hang On:Great find. And the tragedy is that Republicans went for two decades with the Bushes and neocons and all the disasters rather than with Buchanan. Maybe they will get it right and go with Trump.

    Yes, the whole Middle East nation-building process has to stop.  After a quarter-century it is clear that the whole project is one of high risks and low rewards.  Time for a new strategy.

    • #40
  11. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Paul A. Rahe:I was no more an admirer of Buchanan in the 1990s than I am of Trump today. You are right that there are elements of continuity.

    Another past political figure that Trump reminds me of is Dwight D. Eisenhower.  When Trump first used the term “common sense conservatism,” I immediately thought of Eisenhower’s “modern Republicanism.”  Trump’s agenda seems to be an amalgamation of populism, nationalism, and Eisenhower’s 1950s domestic policies.  And let’s not forget that Eisenhower was very much a hardliner on illegal immigration from Mexico.

    • #41
  12. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Tom Meyer, Ed.:Thank you, Mike. Like others, I thought this was thought provoking. I think this section you quoted is important, but it also left me frustrated:

    Huntington: Those forces consist, of course, of the broad social and cultural spectrum of Middle America. Middle American groups are more and more coming to perceive their exploitation at the hands of the dominant elites. The exploitation works on several fronts—economically, by hypertaxation and the design of a globalized economy dependent on exports and services in place of manufacturing; culturally, by the managed destruction of Middle American norms and institutions; and politically, by the regimentation of Middle Americans under the federal leviathan.

    On the latter two issues, pretty much all the Republicans seem to be on the right side of things, albeit to varying degrees and with different emphases. Much the same goes for the first half of the first (“hypertaxation”).

    That leaves the globalism thing. It’s important and I agree that shouting “Free Trade is awesome! Look, stuff!” doesn’t get us very far, but I’m sort of wondering what else people are really looking for. Also, the blaming of “elites” for a globalized economy just seems like scapegoating.

    Thanks, and yes, it is far too easy to resort to scapegoating when looking at the effects of such globalist/free trade policies as NAFTA more than two decades after its enactment.  I think the basic intent behind NAFTA was positive and laudable, but in reality it has had far more negative consequences than initially anticipated, and some of the expected benefits (such as reducing illegal immigration by making Mexico more prosperous) did not come to fruition.

    • #42
  13. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    MarciN:As I recall, Buchanan was as much derided and laughed at as Trump has been.

    Even back then, upper-class people described those who feared the negative effects of unchecked immigration and globalization as low-class ignorant people. How a person felt about these things was a status indicator.

    Yet the “Buy American” movement persisted, and every now and then the mainstream media itself would wonder if things were going according to plan and if all was truly well. I remember a spate of worried articles in the 1990s about how foreigners were buying up America–the big news was that a huge portion of Vermont was being bought by the Chinese. Today there is a concern about the Chicago Stock Exchange being bought by the Chinese. The reporters are saying, “Isn’t anybody going to do something about this?”

    I am and have always been in the camp of wanting more restrictive immigration and less globalization.

    I wish the other candidates were talking about this as much as Trump is, but I understand why they aren’t. They are afraid of the press.

    We just watched this type of national argument play out with the gay marriage movement. It reached the point at which opponents were immediately labeled “homophobes.”

    In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of Trump’s support is coming from the anti-gay-marriage movement, people who are really sick and tired of their community life being reshaped without their consent.

    I agree, and find it troubling that so many people are quick to assume bad faith on the part of those they disagree with, be it on the desire for more immigration restrictions or the belief that the federal government should not mandate gay marriage legalization.  Shouting “racist” or comparing every controversial figure to the leader of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party is rude and unhelpful.

    • #43
  14. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    The Cloaked Gaijin:For some reason I looked up the Southern Poverty Law Center website the other day.

    You may be contacted by the Southern Poverty Law Center: “Rush Limbaugh and the Breitbart News Network … promoting white nationalists? On January 20, Limbaugh read an excerpt from a 1996 essay penned by white nationalist Sam Francis, one of the most influential racist ideologues of the past quarter century. The essay, which Limbaugh claimed to predict the coming of a Donald Trump-type figure in American politics, was first published in Chronicles magazine. Limbaugh and Breitbart News are now playing an identical role pushing Sam Francis’ ideas and the Identitarian movement ideology into the conservative wing of American politics.”

    All Rush did was read part of what the article said on the radio, trying to help everyone understand this Trump phenomenon that perplexes most of the population.

    Southern Poverty Law Center publishes articles such, “No, the Ku Klux Klan Has Never, Ever Been a ‘Leftist’ Organization”.

    “Democrats set about frantically rewriting their own ugly history.

    Step 1: Switch “Democrat” to “Southerner”;

    Step 2: Switch “Southerner” to “conservative Democrat”;

    Step 3: Switch “conservative Democrat” to “conservative.”

    Contrary to liberal folklore, the Democratic segregationists were not all Southern — and they were certainly not conservative. They were dyed-in-the-wool liberal Democrats on all the litmus-test issues of their day. All but one remained liberal Democrats until the day they died. That’s the only one you’ve ever heard of: Strom Thurmond.” — Ann Coulter

    Well said.  The Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the most execrable organizations around.  Their sole function seems to be to convince gullible people to cough up money by scaring them with fairy tales about how the next incarnation of the Klan or the Nazis is imminent but for their “brave” exposes.

    • #44
  15. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Crow's Nest:So, where do I disagree?

    In the first place, there is a tone throughout Francis’ piece that all of the economic upheaval that what he terms “Middle America” has faced (which I would argue is not truly Middle America) is the result of a set of rigged policy choices by “globalist” interests. He doesn’t seem to recognize the extraordinary impact that technology has had on the economy in the last 60 years–raising barriers to trade without significant domestic costs is much easier in a world without airplanes. In an early age, imposing a tariff on foreign goods might well have hit the upper classes pining for the unique or luxury items the most–it might have been progressive. In our moment, any tariff would disproportionality affect the wallets of “Middle American” consumers, drastically raising prices. Instituting and collecting such a tariff would also require a large expansion of the administrative bureaucracy

    In the second place, Francis doesn’t really have a solution to the technocratic mindset his article criticizes. In place of the current “globalized” elite, he basically wants to keep the same apparatus of power in place, just make it work for “Middle Americans”. There is no argument here to restrain or replace the leviathan of New Deal or Great Society programs with a more sensible approach that doesn’t turn all Americans into serfs and proletarians.

    In the third place, there are sentences like this one:

    The Ruling Class uses and is used by secularist, globalist, antiwhite, and anti-Western forces for its and their advantage.

    Wait, what? Anti-white? ….

    Do a little more reading about some of Sam Francis’ positions–several are quite ugly. In thumbnail version: there seems to be an undertone (and not always an undertone) in his work that the problem with multiculturalism isn’t that differences in language and culture are important and must be respected, that one must have a melting pot style immigration policy or actively teach civics…..but rather instead that such differences are tied to something ineradicable like “race”.

    Samuel Francis held many controversial views, all of which I am completely aware of.  And much of what he wrote toward the very end of his life (such as about miscegenation) was simply inexcusable.

    But there is indeed an “anti-white” element on the left, and not just from fringe groups like the Black Panthers or pro-Aztlan radical Hispanic groups like MEChA.  If you are a graduate student studying such fields as history, you will be exposed to such nonsense as The Wages of Whiteness or “Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” which posit whiteness as an unearned privilege that all white people (however defined) benefit from to the detriment of various oppressed minorities.  It is absolutely poisonous and destructive nonsense.

    • #45
  16. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    TempTime: This is a great post, one of the best I’ve read! Thanks Mike. I’m also enjoying all the thoughtful commentary — pro and con — delivered in a tone respectful of the reader … makes me feel rather blessed that I ever found Ricochet within the chaos of the internet.

    Thanks, TempTime!

    • #46
  17. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    tigerlily:

    Mike LaRoche:

    Are we now, in 2016, witnessing the maturation of this movement that Francis saw emerging two decades ago? That may indeed be the case. Like Pat Buchanan’s 1992 and 1996 campaigns, the Donald Trump campaign of 2016 defies easy categorization along the traditional left-right spectrum. But Trump seems to have struck a nerve that Buchanan either did not or could not.

    No, I don’t think so. Buchanan and Trump are both protectionists. However, neither was/has been able to gain the support of anything close to a majority of Republican voters. Buchanan garnered about a third of the Republican primary voters in 1992 & 1996 in campaigns that were much more ideological than Trump 2016. Meanwhile Trump is also only able to garner about a third of the Republican primary electorate in a campaign devoid of any identifiable ideology except for the Cult of Personality surrounding Donald Trump. The difference is the Republican primary of 2016 featured too many contestants and the Republican primary voters were unable to settle on a candidate (or two) that had the ability to gain majority support within the party in a timely fashion, wasting precious time on such obviously un-serious candidates as Dr Ben Carson.

    This actually gives me a little hope that all is not yet lost in the 2016 election.

    And BTW, thanks for posting the Francis essay Mike.

    You’re welcome, Tigerlily.  See my comment above about the similarity I’ve noticed between Trump and Eisenhower.  While Trump’s strong personality does explain a good part of his appeal, I believe his pragmatic, no-nonsense, business-like approach is also attracting support.

    • #47
  18. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    Thanks again for all the comments.  I’m sure there will be some replies to my own comments here.  I’ll try and reply to them as time permits tomorrow.

    • #48
  19. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Mike LaRoche:

    Larry3435:

    Part of the reason I am a Republican (and, apparently, part of the GOPe) is that we are unlike the Democrats in that we do not kiss the ring of nutcases just to court their nutcase followers. …

    I dispute the characterization of Trump and his supporters as “nutcases.” That characterization seems in line with Kevin Williamson’s recent article for National Review. A great number of white, working class Americans are suffering, and they are not racists, bigots, rubes, or bad people. Both political parties have ignored their concerns for far too long. That Trump is addressing those concerns explains why he has done so well thus far in the primaries.

    I fully agree that people are hurting.  What makes them nutcases is their belief that Trump has the qualifications or the ideas to do anything about their issues.  I did not call Trump or his supporters racists or bigots, and the only people who I have noticed being called “rubes” around here are Rubio supporters.  But I do call Trump a snake oil salesman for selling three word answers to complicated questions.

    Yes, there are people who buy miracle beauty treatments off of late night infomercials because they beleive the treatment will make them look like Cindy Crawford.  Sorry, but those people are nuts.  Same with Trump.

    And by the way, Kevin Williamson is a smart guy.  As are all the #nevertrump writers who contributed to the NR issue.

    • #49
  20. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    I haven’t heard the name of Samuel Francis and Chronicles in years.  Yes, Mike I have to agree with you.  This sort of nationalism was very much a part of the conservative coalition up through the 1970s, and it seems to be resurrecting with Trump.  Even Ronald Reagan had what were called Reagan Democrats, though in my opinion they weren’t that strongly Democrats.  Somehow the Neoconservatives (of which I might consider myself part of) and Libertarians pushed these nationalists from our coalition, probably because they both considered them too low brow, and the nationalists had a subtle suggestion of racism.  The racism was for the most part not deliberate, but there were elements that were.

    We lost the nationalists to our detriment.  We have never been able to reconstitute the Reagan winning coalition.  We don’t have a national majority without them.  We need to bring them back in and form a new four legged conservative stool: economics, military, religious, and nationalists.

    • #50
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    MarciN:As I recall, Buchanan was as much derided and laughed at as Trump has been.

    Even back then, upper-class people described those who feared the negative effects of unchecked immigration and globalization as low-class ignorant people. How a person felt about these things was a status indicator.

    It”s not just the “upper-class people.”  In fact it’s not so much them, but the intellectual elites.  Look Conservatism has drifted too far into intellectualism and excluded the common folk.  Neoconservatives (of which I might consider to be part of) and Libertarians (of which I’m definitely not part of) have pretty much taken over the term “conservatism” over the last thirty years.  Both are intellectual based ideologies that have a disconnect with the daily lives of people who don’t engage in the world of ideas.  And though we say our ideas are best for all, yet, they don’t seem to agree.  And frankly I don’t blame them.

    I doubt I’ll be voting for him in the primary when it gets to my state, but there’s a part of me that wants to see Trump win to poke a finger in the faces of all the pointy-headed (Richard Nixon’s term) intellectuals that think they know better, including me!

    • #51
  22. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Manny, Nationalism is a bit of a two-sided coin.  Some nationalist policies, like a strong military, are a good thing.  And I cheer American exceptionalism.  I am disgusted by Obama running around the world apologizing for us.

    But in addition to all that, I think we have to be suspicious of politicians who make a big show of their nationalism.  As you say, sometimes nationalism can carry an implied taint of bigotry.  As done by Trump, it is more a matter of scapegoating than bigotry, but Trump’s propensity for blaming Mexico and China for all of America’s problems is still dangerous.  Also, if carried too far, nationalism can become jingoism, which also clouds clear judgment and gets in the way of implementing solutions that would actually do some good.

    • #52
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Larry3435:Manny, Nationalism is a bit of a two-sided coin. Some nationalist policies, like a strong military, are a good thing. And I cheer American exceptionalism. I am disgusted by Obama running around the world apologizing for us.

    But in addition to all that, I think we have to be suspicious of politicians who make a big show of their nationalism. As you say, sometimes nationalism can carry an implied taint of bigotry. As done by Trump, it is more a matter of scapegoating than bigotry, but Trump’s propensity for blaming Mexico and China for all of America’s problems is still dangerous. Also, if carried too far, nationalism can become jingoism, which also clouds clear judgment and gets in the way of implementing solutions that would actually do some good.

    I don’t think Trump has found the perfect formula for integrating nationalism (which I admit requires definition, and I’m not prepared to give one) but nonetheless conservatism has to stop being intellectually elitist if it wants a national majority.  My hunch is that most conservatives want to wallow in their fixed ideologies rather than form a majority coalition.

    • #53
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Larry3435:But in addition to all that, I think we have to be suspicious of politicians who make a big show of their nationalism. As you say, sometimes nationalism can carry an implied taint of bigotry. As done by Trump, it is more a matter of scapegoating than bigotry, but Trump’s propensity for blaming Mexico and China for all of America’s problems is still dangerous. Also, if carried too far, nationalism can become jingoism, which also clouds clear judgment and gets in the way of implementing solutions that would actually do some good.

    One other thing: you’re using nationalism as a verb – a process to unite through semi demagogic means – and I’m using it as a noun to describe Trump’s supporters.  They are a group of the American electorate who have the sneaky suspicion that what the intellectual elites promulgate as good policy only helps the intellectuals and not the common working folk.  These people don’t need demagoguery to be activated.  They really feel the negative effects of free trade and military excursions to “fix the world” while they bear the brunt of the negative side.  As I said above, I’m a neoconservative who supports free trade and American policing in the world.

    • #54
  25. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Manny:My hunch is that most conservatives want to wallow in their fixed ideologies rather than form a majority coalition.

    Manny, I’m all for big tents and winning coalitions and all that, but there are three problems here.

    First, a celebrity candidate like Trump might bring people in for one election, but he won’t help to build a lasting coalition.  We saw this in California where Republican Arnold won the Governor’s race.  As soon as Arnold left office, the voters went right back to electing all Dems, all the time.

    Second, while you want a majority coalition, you also want that coalition to have some kind of common policies and governing philosophy.  I want to draw people into the Party by persuading them that our philosophy is good and right; not by surrendering the Party to leftist philosophy.  (And no, the GOPe has not “already done that.”  That’s demonstrably false, no matter how many people say it.)

    Third, while you’re building a coalition you also have to govern.  Trump is manifestly unqualified to govern.  He lacks the knowledge, the temperament, and the skills to be President.  He is, simply put, a buffoon, and you don’t build a Party or a coalition by electing buffoons.

    Anyway, all of this is hypothetical.  Trump will lose to Hillary.  He may be the only guy in America (besides Bernie) who could lose to Hillary, but he will lose.

    • #55
  26. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Let me sstart out by saying I am not a Trump supporter.  I was actively against him here on Ricochet during the summer.  Somehow everyone else wrote him off until now.

    Larry3435:

    First, a celebrity candidate like Trump might bring people in for one election, but he won’t help to build a lasting coalition.

    You don’t know that.  That’s your speculation, and if you go back to the Perot and Buchanon campaigns, this sort of nationalism has been there for a coalition all this while.

    Second, while you want a majority coalition, you also want that coalition to have some kind of common policies and governing philosophy. I want to draw people into the Party by persuading…

    So all we need is better communication.  I’ve heard that losing strategy since I was a child.  You’re not listening to the people.

    Third, while you’re building a coalition you also have to govern. Trump is manifestly unqualified to govern.

    I would say he might just be very good at governing.  He’s got the right skill set.  And I don’t believe you build a billion dollar empire with a poor temperament.  Rudy Guilliani, who had a very similar temperament, did a great job as mayor of NYC.

    Anyway, all of this is hypothetical. Trump will lose to Hillary. He may be the only guy in America (besides Bernie) who could lose to Hillary, but he will lose.

    I’ve heard that before too.

    • #56
  27. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Manny:

    Larry3435:

    Anyway, all of this is hypothetical. Trump will lose to Hillary. He may be the only guy in America (besides Bernie) who could lose to Hillary, but he will lose.

    I’ve heard that before too.

    One more thing on that last point.  Obviously if Conservatives refuse to support Trump, then yes we will lose.  What you’re seeing in the polls is conservative pull back, the “never trump” crowd.  If conservatives don’t support Trump if he happens to win and Hillary gets elected, then they deserve everything she will bring.

    I’m not voting for him in the primary but I for one will support Trump if he wins.  This “never Trump” thing by conservatives is childish.

    • #57
  28. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    Manny, All that stuff you’ve “heard before,” there’s a reason you’ve heard it – because it’s true.  That doesn’t mean that we win every election, and it doesn’t mean (for most of us) that we give up when we lose an election and reject all accumulated wisdom (which is not a very conservative thing to do).  And as far as Perot and Buchanan go, you prove my point.  Both of them did lasting damage to the Party.  Neither of them brought in any voters.  And Perot handed the White House to Clinton.  Just as Trump is handing the White House to another Clinton.

    • #58
  29. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    You know, the more I think about this, the more I think I have to say something.  Sorry, Manny, if you find it offensive.  Offending you is not my goal.  But this is a simple fact.  I have been practicing law for 35 years.  I think I have heard every silly response to an argument that that a human being (or even a lawyer) can concoct.  But I have never heard a sillier “refutation” to an argument than saying “I’ve heard that before.”

    Really.

    • #59
  30. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Manny:

    MarciN:As I recall, Buchanan was as much derided and laughed at as Trump has been.

    Even back then, upper-class people described those who feared the negative effects of unchecked immigration and globalization as low-class ignorant people. How a person felt about these things was a status indicator.

    It”s not just the “upper-class people.” In fact it’s not so much them, but the intellectual elites. Look Conservatism has drifted too far into intellectualism and excluded the common folk. Neoconservatives (of which I might consider to be part of) and Libertarians (of which I’m definitely not part of) have pretty much taken over the term “conservatism” over the last thirty years. Both are intellectual based ideologies that have a disconnect with the daily lives of people who don’t engage in the world of ideas. And though we say our ideas are best for all, yet, they don’t seem to agree. And frankly I don’t blame them.

    I doubt I’ll be voting for him in the primary when it gets to my state, but there’s a part of me that wants to see Trump win to poke a finger in the faces of all the pointy-headed (Richard Nixon’s term) intellectuals that think they know better, including me!

    It is intellectualism to say that doing Meth is a bad thing?

    This gets back to Fishtown. Fishtown stinks mostly because the people there are failing at the basics of being human beings.

    • #60
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