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  1. BrentB67 Inactive
    BrentB67
    @BrentB67

    Frank Soto:

    BrentB67:

    Frank Soto:

    BrentB67:

    Son of Spengler:

    BrentB67:

    I will trust you are correct, but this is part of the problem. It is always easier to defer to arcane procedures to protect big government than take risks to repeal it entirely.

    What risks?

    Associated with eliminating the filibuster.

    Okay, so let’s play this out as a general strategy, while acknowledging that Ryan is a member of the house, and has no say over Senate rules.

    There are good arguments on both sides of the issue of whether to eliminate the filibuster. Let’s say that Sal successfully convinces me (he came close) that we should ultimately do away with it.

    There is no question that you should wait to do so until you hold the house, senate, and the presidency. Doing so at any other moment is a waste as the democrats may well hold all three again before you do, and despite heated rhetoric from the right, they have largely obeyed it. We would potentially be untying their hands instead of our own. There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    There is also no upside to talking about doing it. You remove it like a band-aid. All at once, and then let the media cry themselves out after the fact, rather than give them a year or more to demonize ahead of time, creating cold feet in some members.

    Agree. I go back and forth on eliminating it. Very opportunistic.

    • #91
  2. BrentB67 Inactive
    BrentB67
    @BrentB67

    Frank Soto:

    Mike H:

    Does Sal’s argument appear anywhere on Ricochet? Does he believe it would ultimately make the government somewhat more libertarian or for some other principled reason, or does he think the democrats are going to do it sometime anyway so we might as well do it strategically when it maximizes gains?

    He explained it to me on an AMU night cap. Not sure if it’s in writing on Ricochet.

    He believes that a deadlocked congress leads to a runaway executive, which is ultimately a greater threat to liberty than congress. That doesn’t do the argument justice, but it’s the gist of it.

    I would have to read his argument.

    I don’t think it automatically follows that in a deadlocked Congress the executive runs away and usurps power.

    • #92
  3. BrentB67 Inactive
    BrentB67
    @BrentB67

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    The media will simply portray every veto as heroic for stopping the Republicans from doing all manner of evil.

    It changes nothing fundamental about the coverage or narratives. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

    That is true, but the media will portray anything republicans do as negative. That is a battle we will never win.

    The best we can hope for is to go direct and somehow circumvent the media.

    • #93
  4. Quinn the Eskimo Member
    Quinn the Eskimo
    @

    Aaron Miller:I’m heartened by his use of YouTube to bypass traditional media when making his case for budget reform. Republicans must control the narrative to win voters. And it’s nice having an unfiltered record of policy arguments.

    It is the seed of something.  It’s good to know that some people recognize that we need more outlets than the MSM (where our message is blocked and distorted) and talk radio (where we are only talking to allies and not the the population as a whole).  I don’t think YouTube is nearly enough, but it’s a start.

    • #94
  5. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    On the reconciliation vs. eliminating the filibuster thing, keep in mind that Ryan was the VP candidate, not top of the ticket. If Romney didn’t want him to talk about dumping the filibuster, he wasn’t going to do it. I’m not sure Ryan’s ever waded in either way on that one. From his current post, he’d probably say it’s a decision for the Senate. He can work on reconciliation; he can’t change Senate rules. So of course he’s going to talk more about the thing he knows.

    The Democrats could have abolished the filibuster already and didn’t — because it’ll be incredibly easy to present as a massive power grab. If it stays intact it’s still some protection if and when we lose the Senate. Now if they have anything they want to do, they’ll likely enough do away with it themselves, but in that case by all means they should be the ones to take the heat for it, too.

    Totally, totally worth it if you accomplish anything substantial at all, but probably not just to give Obama a bill to veto. It would be political malfeasance to abolish the filibuster just in time for the Democrats to win the Senate majority.

    • #95
  6. BrentB67 Inactive
    BrentB67
    @BrentB67

    Eric Hines:

    BrentB67:

    Frank Soto:

    BrentB67:

    Son of Spengler:

    BrentB67:

    My question is if he was speaking of having the House, Senate, and President Romney, why is the goal to only repeal 85% of the ACA.

    Because reconciliation only allows you to amend provisions of the ACA that have budget impact.

    I will trust you are correct, but this is part of the problem. It is always easier to defer to arcane procedures to protect big government than take risks to repeal it entirely.

    What risks?

    Associated with eliminating the filibuster.

    I’m interested in a different aspect regarding the filibuster than Mr Soto’s. Assuming it’s a good idea to get rid of the filibuster, what’s your plan, Brent, for the Senate eliminating it? What’s your path for achieving that?

    Eric Hines

    Eric, I don’t have a plan or interest in eliminating it. I am trying to square Son of Spengler’s comment regarding Ryan as VP candidate saying they could eliminate 85% of Obamacare through reconciliation with both ends of Pennsylvania Ave and assuming <60R’s in the Senate.

    If that is correct, and I have no reason to doubt SoS, then we begin to address the risk of repealing the filibuster to repeal 100% of it.

    I think we would be better off without the filibuster in general, but that is as much emotional opinion as anything.

    • #96
  7. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    BrentB67:

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    The media will simply portray every veto as heroic for stopping the Republicans from doing all manner of evil.

    It changes nothing fundamental about the coverage or narratives. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

    That is true, but the media will portray anything republicans do as negative. That is a battle we will never win.

    The best we can hope for is to go direct and somehow circumvent the media.

    Which is fine.  But circumventing the media should work (or not work) regardless of whether Republican reforms are dying in the senate or to vetoes.

    • #97
  8. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    BrentB67: I don’t think it automatically follows that in a deadlocked Congress the executive runs away and usurps power.

    Not automatic, but it is a very probable outcome in 21st century America, at least to some degree.

    Constitutionally, and in actual reality, “Congress” can block the President doing almost anything. But for the most part that power lies in Congress as a body, not with a simple majority. A deadlocked Congress can’t wield it.

    A simple majority can’t do so fully, either. Conservatives keep looking at what the Constitution says Congress can do and are frustrated that Republicans won’t do it — but we have to take into account that Republicans do not have the full power of the Congress. The most powerful tools to restrain a president require a supermajority.

    Sure, Republicans have been flailing. They’re disunited and have leadership problems. But they are also flailing because they are denied the tools the situation requires. The larger travesty for the country is the Democratic Party’s complete unwillingness to hold this president accountable for absolutely anything whatsoever. It would take only 1/3 of the Democratic caucus in each chamber willing to draw some lines in the sand — and likely enough the president would never cross them.

    Conservatism and the country would be far, far better served if the movement focused slightly less on Republican failings and slightly more on the Democrats who fail to do their job out of party loyalty or ideology.

    • #98
  9. Quinn the Eskimo Member
    Quinn the Eskimo
    @

    Leigh: The larger travesty for the country is the Democratic Party’s complete unwillingness to hold this president accountable for absolutely anything whatsoever.

    The MSM is also partly responsible on this account.  And some portion of the American people are responsible.  I’m not sure this would happen if more people weren’t outraged.

    • #99
  10. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    The media has a huge part of the responsibility.

    • #100
  11. Eric Hines Inactive
    Eric Hines
    @EricHines

    ctlaw:

    Eric Hines:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    Congress could pass separate bills with noncontroversial items (e.g., funding critical services). If the President vetoes, he gets the blame.

    Right now, it’s easy for the Senate Democrats to block something noncontroversial (because they want to use it as leverage to get something controversial) and then have President blame the blockage on Republicans.

    This doesn’t wash. The Democrats had no problem figuring out how to beat up the obstructionist Republicans for filibustering. And they didn’t have to go crying to Daddy President to start the blame game; they did it from the Senate. Nor is the degree of controversy or “cleanliness” of the bill a factor.

    Currently, the weight of the MSM allows the blame to fall on Republicans whether it is the Republicans or Democrats filibustering. It also allows the concepts of clean and unclean to be inverted. This just makes it more difficult for the MSM to blame Republicans

    The Republicans could just as easily more clearly focus the blame on obstructionist Democrats. Which is what some of the right-side Republicans are on about now–pass the stuff, force the filibuster/veto, and then focus the blame.

    Eric Hines

    Not through the MSM filter.

    Blaming Republicans’ failure to communicate effectively on a hostile MSM is a copout.  There are lots of ways for a Republican to talk to his constituents and to his Democrat neighbor’s constituents than simply relying on the press.

    Eric Hines

    • #101
  12. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    The media will simply portray every veto as heroic for stopping the Republicans from doing all manner of evil.

    It changes nothing fundamental about the coverage or narratives. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

    Those media lies would be easier to penetrate.

    • #102
  13. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    The media will simply portray every veto as heroic for stopping the Republicans from doing all manner of evil.

    It changes nothing fundamental about the coverage or narratives. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

    Those media lies would be easier to penetrate.

    Based on what?

    • #103
  14. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto:

    ctlaw:

    Frank Soto: There is no upside to removing it while a democrat is president.

    It would more clearly focus the blame for things at the foot of the President.

    The media will simply portray every veto as heroic for stopping the Republicans from doing all manner of evil.

    It changes nothing fundamental about the coverage or narratives. It is wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

    Those media lies would be easier to penetrate.

    Based on what?

    Common sense.

    Which would you prefer to argue when confronted with an assertion that the Republicans shut down funerals for veterans:

    1)  You: The Republicans passed a funeral funding bill and Obama vetoed it because he wants to hold the dead vets hostage to get funding for unrelated stupid program X.

    2)  You: The Democrats won’t let the Republicans pass a funeral funding bill because Obama wants to hold the dead vets hostage to get funding for unrelated stupid program X.

    The problem with 2) is that the leftist then says: “Well that’s just what you say. I heard that the Republicans wanted to do something evil in the bill and thank Gaia the Democrats stopped them!” In 1) you have the passed bill as proof that there was nothing evil included.

    • #104
  15. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    ctlaw:  In 1) you have the passed bill as proof that there was nothing evil included.

    You can say the something about the bill that was killed in the senate.  You’ve drawn no distinction, let alone a useful one.

    • #105
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