Europe, the Refugee Crisis, and Conservatives

 

web-refugee-crisis-5-epaI noticed yesterday on the Member Feed that Ricochet member F-18 was wondering why we hadn’t been discussing the refugee crisis on Ricochet. In fact, we have — quite a bit — but he’s right that some of the most interesting discussions have been coming up in the comment threads, and thus aren’t so easy to find.

I’m in Europe now, and was living in Turkey as the Syrian war began and the refugees began streaming across the border. So I thought I’d open this thread to anyone who wants to ask questions about what exactly happened and what’s happening now in Europe.

Before that, though, I thought I’d put up links to some of the posts I wrote here on Ricochet as the crisis began. It would take you a few hours to read them all and watch all of the video interviews, but if you have them to spare, you might find them useful: You can see from them how absolutely clear it was, even in 2011, that a disaster of this scale was inevitable.

So when I read now that thanks to a single photo of a drowned Syrian toddler the world has realized it has a very big problem on its hands, I think you’ll understand why I feel … well, I don’t know what I feel. And I guess what I feel isn’t really the point.

July 10, 2011: Mike and Bob From Hama

… I suppose the place to start is at the end. I know the look he gave me when I left. I see it a lot: “You’re a journalist. Please, make the world understand what’s happening to us. If they understood, they wouldn’t let it happen.”

July 11, 2011: “Hama Doesn’t Forget or Forgive

… He was groping for any kind of hope, but realistically hopeless. “The whole world wants Assad to stay. Everyone is too afraid of what will happen if he falls.” He was well aware that this fear wasn’t baseless. Overwhelmingly, he thought, the most likely outcome of this was civil war. “There is a huge hatred for the Alawites.”

He stressed that anyone who thought compromise or reform possible at this point was delusional. “They don’t understand the Syrian mentality. Hama doesn’t forget or forgive.”

Bob had joined us by this point. I asked, again, why they were talking to the media. “Governments won’t listen,” Mike said. “But the message has to get out to people. People can make their governments put pressure on Assad.”

I told him that I thought the likelihood of this was close to zero, and I explained why. Bob tried to insist I was wrong.

Mike interrupted him and said, “No, she’s right. I agree with her. She’s right.

“Rationally, there’s no hope.”

June 18, 2011: When Syria Explodes

… It’s not a secret that Syria is imploding. But the key thing to grasp is that it won’t stop there: There is a real possibility that this regime will take its neighbors down with it. I’m not sure that the West — which from what I can tell is now completely preoccupied with itself and its economic problems — is sufficiently grasping this. …

February 2, 2012: The Evil Regime: A Report From Syria

… Having been told that the videos of carnage coming out of Syria were doctored or manufactured to exaggerate the scale of the catastrophe there, he decided he had an obligation to see for himself. He disguised himself as a naive Turkish restauranteur and went to Syria undercover. He was there for two weeks before being arrested and deported. He’s in Istanbul now, and I saw him last night. Physically he’s fine, but …

February 3, 2012: What Ilhan Tanır Saw in Syria, Part I

…  “Conditions are far worse than I expected. … They come house by house and they arrest every single person … it’s far worse than anything you can imagine. … the civil war has not arrived yet, but it looks like maybe a few weeks … I definitely think Assad forces must be distracted, must be distracted, they’re using all their resources on the people … but they’re doing this because there’s nothing else they worry about right now … Yes, Assad might play whatever he’s got — Kurds, PKK, it’s a risk … Everyone is waiting, Assad does what he does best … “

February 3, 2012: What Ilhan Tanır Saw in Syria, Part II

“I had no idea what they were going to do to me … they wouldn’t let me call my embassy, no way. … I thought, ‘Okay, this is not going well.’ … They took me downstairs, which is a terrible, terrible place … smells, I cannot describe how disgusting it was … people are coming in chained, like ten, five, ten people … they were really angry at me, I can see … they only hit me in the chaos, and it wasn’t too bad, compared to other people … I have no idea who did it, they did it from my back … it could have been much worse, it was chaos.” …

February 4, 2012: Let Me Save You Time on Syria

Let me put this to you simply. Assad is a monster. He is evil beyond comprehension. No one is going to stop him until he and everyone around him is dead. But you’re out of your minds if you convince yourself the FSA is comprised of potentially friendly, liberal democrats. There’s not a liberal democrat between here and the Horn of Africa, just trust me on this; they don’t even know what those words mean, they just know that you have to say them if you want to have any hope of being saved by those weird but freakishly powerful Americans for whom the words “liberal democrats” are the magic elixer. There will be no friendly, moderate, secular regime in Syria, ever, and the first thing the FSA will do if anyone helps them is slaughter Alawites and Christians. Everyone knows it, and at this point, who could possibly be surprised and who could blame them. They hate the world in this descending order, with allowances for overlap: Shia, Jews, Christians, Iran, America, Israel, Russia, Turkey. They’ll probably hate each other, too, soon enough.

The only options here are unbearably awful and unspeakably awful. There’s no happy outcome. The United States remains the only country in the world with anything like the military power to change this situation in a meaningful way, and nothing but military power will affect it, and the US isn’t going to use it. Our economy is in the tank, we’re tied down around the world, we’re hamstrung by Russia and Iran. We’re done with this region; we’re not even interested.

We will be blamed for not intervening, just as we were blamed for intervening in Iran and Iraq, and everyone will forget that both intervening and not intervening are moral choices; and the US was never presented — ever — with a choice between supporting good and supporting evil in this part of the world, just between supporting evil and supporting slightly-less-evil. In a choice between supporting evil and supporting slightly less-evil, slightly-less-evil equals good. That’s the real world.

… So, yeah, they’re Islamists, not the shy flower of the Scottish Enlightenment, but they seem to have some interest in democracy, and they talk about the Turkish model, which I’m sure they don’t understand, but which, if it means to them, “Islamic and democratic,” is probably a good thing. Maybe if you could get enough UN peacekeepers in there fast enough after Assad falls, you could prevent some of the slaughter of the minorities that would otherwise ensue. Maybe you could get a functional state up-and-running fast enough that Syria doesn’t become the Somalia of the Levant, maybe not.

The risk right now to Syria’s neighbors, if it tries to help, is extreme: Assad holds the PKK card, it has huge stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. The regime is going bankrupt, at the very least there will be floods of refuges if this continues, Turkey certainly can’t absorb them. The Russians would be perfectly happy for every man, woman and child in Syria to be tortured and killed so long as nothing gets between it and its warm water base at Tartus. The French and the British will make very stern noises, but what are they going to do. UN? Useless. Arab League? Useless. GCC? Useless.

Meanwhile, those kids are dying. I’ve met some of them, Ilhan has met many more, and they’re kids who have been pushed into radicalism because they’re going to be killed tomorrow, so you better well hope there’s a better life on the other side. It’s that simple, really.  …

And so here we are, on September 23, 2015. Please feel free to ask me any question you have about the refugee crisis — how it began, how Europe is reacting to it, what conservatives should think about it, and what might happen next.

Sadly, I know a lot about it.

And I know that for reasons I’ll never understand — as long as I’m alive — people are surprised by it.

 

Published in Foreign Policy, General
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  1. Robert Lux Inactive
    Robert Lux
    @RobertLux

    These politicians, led by Herr Gauck and Frau Merkel, presume that out of these migrants will immediately emerge motivated, intelligent, educated and employable skilled workers, who then will replace aging German employee. It is a laughable assumption. It stands in gross opposition to each and every experience that Germany has had in the past with migrants and guest workers.

    –article just published by Vaclav Klaus, “A Multicultural Imperium Built on Childish Fantasy.”

    • #91
  2. Addiction Is A Choice Member
    Addiction Is A Choice
    @AddictionIsAChoice

    Greece appears to be paying a heavy price in the migration drama. I’m wondering if there are German strings attached to Greece’s apparent acquiescence.

    • #92
  3. Robert Lux Inactive
    Robert Lux
    @RobertLux

    Kozak:

    Heavily populated by Muslims with vicious anti Israel and frankly anti semitic propaganda, once in Vienna, and once in Berlin within 100 yards of the Holocaust Memorial.

    I read the other day of a German school exempting Muslim students from attending field trips to a concentration camp for fear of upsetting delicate Muslim shibboleths about denial (or is it salubriousness?) of Jew extermination.

    Bottom line in all of this, I don’t think Claire really appreciates that if imams in places like Germany or Sweden somehow devised an Islam devoid of political and ethnic separatism/chauvinism — in other words, devoid of subjugations of women, of Sharia hudud punishments, of Jihad terror — then other Muslims would denounce them as heretics and apostates, and they’d live thereafter under a death fatwa.

    Once Muslim in places like Germany and Sweden —  far more besotted with multicultural ideology than France with her republican institutions/traditions — reach, say, 20 percent of the country’s population, the societies as a whole will probably start to behave in ways more “Islamic.”* More social dislocation and strife, poorer quality economic goods produced, etc.  “Made in Germany” as an imprimatur of quality will, in a few decades, be something of the past.

    * Out of 16 nations in which Muslims form between 20 and 50 percent of the population, only three rank as free: Benin, Serbia & Montenegro (as it was then), and Suriname. 2005 Freedom House study.

    • #93
  4. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Xennady:

    The reality of events is summed up by the Saudi offer to build mosques in Germany, but not to accept any refugees.

    I think they should do a lot more, but from Al-Monitor:

    Abu Dhabi’s government-owned The National newspaper recently ran an editorial to remind the world that since the Syrian civil war began in 2011, 100,000 Syrians have moved to the United Arab Emirates. A total of a quarter-million Syrians now live in the UAE.

    Saudi Arabia is defending its record more forcefully. On Sept. 11, an unnamed official at the Saudi Foreign Ministry claimed Saudi Arabia had received around 2.5 million Syrians, though the actual number is probably between 100,000 to 250,000. The Saudis also claim to have provided approximately $700 million to Jordan and Lebanon — although that figure falls far short of the $5.5 billion Turkey has spent.

    • #94
  5. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    John Penfold:What do others you respect and who have deep experience in the region but opposite opinions from yours, think is doable? If we had the will, knowledge, staying power and military to do something about this what could we do other than take over and remain for a century? Is there a way to contain the damage and spread to neighboring countries, the impact of the refugee crisis? Is there any coalition, including one with Russia that could contain the spread? What should we stop doing?

    Sorry for taking so long to answer this; it’s a complicated question and I didn’t want to be incomprehensible by saying, “Well, this guy is smart and I respect him and he has deep experience in the region. He suggests we do this, which is totally idiotic.”

    I think maybe you meant something like, “What are the range of policy options that serious people might be considering,” right? Let me see if I can come up with a short reading list from the people who I think know the region best and post it, including those who disagree with me — I’ll let them defend their views themselves, rather than trying to explain what they’re arguing for and probably doing it poorly because I don’t agree with them. Stay tuned.

    • #95
  6. Mike LaRoche Inactive
    Mike LaRoche
    @MikeLaRoche

    It’s déjà vu all over again.

    • #96
  7. Byron Horatio Inactive
    Byron Horatio
    @ByronHoratio

    I have followed the goings-on in Syria religiously the past year. The miracle of modern communication has even afforded me the opportunity to make some pen pals in the northern part of the country.

    I asked one of them recently, an Assyrian girl in the Christian militia, if she had ever considered trying to seek asylum in the West. I was surprised by her answer, which I have paraphrased:

    “No. All of us have lost loved ones and know people in ISIS captivity. If we all leave, our culture will be destroyed forever. I feel safer in Syria now than I would if I moved to Europe. The Christians there have no means to defend themselves. But here? We are all armed. And we kill any Daesh (ISIS) who threaten us.”

    About Assad:

    “We lived well under the regime. Christians were protected. If we didn’t rebel, we were left alone. When the revolution began though, many of us supported it and hoped for democracy. But we didn’t realize how good we had it. What has the revolution brought us? Our homes destroyed, our girls forced into slavery and marriage, and constant death. We don’t like Assad, but what other choice do we have have? The U.S. will never recognize an independent Assyria or Kurdistan here.”

    And about the refugees:

    “Europe is killing itself. They are letting in the same people who destroyed our country. One day, the Chrisrians there may be the ones fleeing to the Assyrian lands for protection.”

    • #97
  8. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Byron Horatio: I have followed the goings-on in Syria religiously the past year. The miracle of modern communication has even afforded me the opportunity to make some pen pals in the northern part of the country.

    If she’d like to join Ricochet, we’d offer her a free membership. Would you invite her on our behalf?

    • #98
  9. Xennady Member
    Xennady
    @

    Zafar:I think they should do a lot more, but from Al-Monitor:

    On Sept. 11, an unnamed official at the Saudi Foreign Ministry claimed Saudi Arabia had received around 2.5 million Syrians, though the actual number is probably between 100,000 to 250,000. The Saudis also claim to have provided approximately $700 million to Jordan and Lebanon — although that figure falls far short of the $5.5 billion Turkey has spent.

    Kudos to the government of Abu Dhabi and the rest of the Emirates as well, but the Saudis- nope.

    They should be allowing every single Muslim driven out of Syria to go live in their land, and collect those generous welfare benefits the Saudi Kingdom gives to its citizens.

    After all, they plainly expect the European nations to extend the same gratuities to the Christians driven out of Syria.

    I kid, because I know that’s not what they really mean. They expect the Europeans to pay for the Muslims driven out of Syria, and care nothing for the Christians, if any survive.

    But I’ll be charitable myself, and pretend as if they also want the Europeans to keep any Christian refugees alive.

    Hence, I will suggest that my plan has some basis in reality, and suggest that the US government propose it as official policy.

    Again, I kid.

    • #99
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Xennady:

    Kudos to the government of Abu Dhabi and the rest of the Emirates as well, but the Saudis- nope.

    Frankly they could all do better.  Let’s not forget that allowing Syrians residence is not the same as giving them citizenship or a permanent right to remain and build a home.  It can all be withdrawn at whim.

    Wrt the Saudis – I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    • #100
  11. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    SoDakBoy:  Syria becomes worse because most of their human capital (entrepreneurs, professionals, physicians) leaves

    This is a big concern and is always a big concern with civil wars: The people who are most needed to rebuild it when it’s over leave. I’m not sure there’s an easy answer.

    But I’d say the very easy calls, when it comes to charitable donations, are the refugee children, especially in Jordan. They need food, clean water, vaccination against epidemic disease (especially polio), medical care (many have been gravely injured), protection from sexual exploitation — the girls in those camps will be raped — protection from Islamist indoctrination (many will get aid from Islamist groups, so they’ll imprint on the people who feed them, as children do); and as much education as they can possibly get under the circumstances. They’ll otherwise be a completely illiterate generation, and that’s a ticking time bomb for the world, so even if one is entirely cold to their suffering, there’s a clear national security interest in helping them.  Here’s a description of these camps from Senator Chris Murphy, and it tallies exactly with every other description, so I believe it. (I haven’t seen the camps in Jordan, personally, but there’s real unanimity in the way they’re described, so I’m not in much doubt that this is the situation.)

    Outside the camp, hundreds of thousands of other refugees are living in the streets, and life is about to get much harder for them too since the World Food Program has run out of money and will no longer be able to supply the vast majority of refugees who live outside the camp with food.

    This explains why so many refugees are giving up on the camps and fleeing for Europe. They see no end to the civil war, and little real humanitarian assistance on its way to make life in the camp better. We head out to see the camp for ourselves. It is hard to describe with words what we saw. Make no mistake — the UN team is doing its best. They’ve replaced the tents with small tin box-like structures. There is decent medical coverage. There is little evidence of abnormal violence.

    But half of the 80,000 who live in the camp are kids. And this is no place for a child to grow up. They get electricity for maybe 6 hours a day. Sewage and feces run through little trenches dug into the sand — we see 6 year old boys out in the heat digging and re-digging the pathways. Some girls and boys go to school, but most are forced by their parents to work for meager wages selling bread or doing hard labor. Girls have it the worst — many of them are sold into marriage in the mid-teens as a means of income for their family. Desperation and want emanate from every corner of the camp.

    We visit one of the schools. Girls, who go to school for a few hours in the morning so the boys can go for a few hours in the afternoon, are packed three kids to a desk. There must be a hundred in the fourth grade classroom they visit. Peters asks them what they want to be when they grow up, and just like any classroom in the U.S., their hands spring up. “A doctor,” one yells. “A teacher,” say most.

    Walking out of the classroom, the UNICEF head grimly tell us, “They want to be teachers and lawyers and doctors. That’s just because they haven’t realized what’s really in store for them. In a few years, they’ll be sold into marriage or forced to work on the streets for money. And that’s if they’re lucky enough to still be alive.

    So my sense is that any charitable donation that goes toward feeding, vaccinating, educating or protecting these kids from abuse is a worthy one. Over the years, I’ve found that the most effective charities — everywhere — are small, Christian ones that have had a longstanding presence; but in this case, it may well be that only the huge bureaucracies like the World Food Programme and UNICEF have the ability to work on this scale, even if they’re notoriously imperfect and sure to waste a lot of it.

    So I would donate to the groups working in Jordan. That’s where the need is greatest. (And to anyone who tells me that children facing the prospect of polio, starvation, or rape are someone else’s problem and we don’t want Muslim immigrants in America because they don’t share our Judeo-Christian values? Look, it’s one or the other: either we’ve got Judeo-Christian values, in which case they’re our problem, or we don’t, in which case why bother worrying about people with inferior values.)

    • #101
  12. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    John Penfold:What do others you respect and who have deep experience in the region but opposite opinions from yours, think is doable? If we had the will, knowledge, staying power and military to do something about this what could we do other than take over and remain for a century? Is there a way to contain the damage and spread to neighboring countries, the impact of the refugee crisis? Is there any coalition, including one with Russia that could contain the spread? What should we stop doing?

    John, I’ve been thinking about this since you asked. I respect the International Crisis Group: they are very serious in their research and always deeply knowledgable about the conflicts they report on. This report is well worth reading, and will give you a sense of what quite a number of diplomats and analysts are debating. This is their conclusion:

    The Syria conflict presents policymakers with excruciating choices. Available options for shifting course tend to be limited and unappealing. Decision-makers within and outside the country have generally preferred to stick with status-quo approaches. Yet that, too, is a choice, and the status quo – it cannot be emphasised enough – is disastrous. Hundreds of Syrians continue to be killed each week, in addition to well over 200,000 already dead in the conflict. More than twelve million need assistance inside the country, and there are more than four million refugees. The war fuels radicalisation, generating a boom in extremism and sectarian polarisation with capacity to destabilise the surrounding region far beyond Syria’s borders. As the war goes on, the viciousness of that radicalising cycle increases; so long as the military stalemate continues, we should expect that to remain the case.

    Ending this war and escaping that vicious cycle is not a matter of time – it is a matter of decisions. Resolving the conflict requires fundamental shifts in approach by state backers on both sides: the U.S. must recognise that it cannot contain Salafi jihadi flames while ignoring the regime’s role in stoking the fire; the opposition’s regional backers must recognise that neither they nor their rebel allies can eliminate Iran’s influence in Syria via military means; and Iran must recognise the unsustainable costs of upholding Assad’s rule through the expanding military intervention of its Revolutionary Guard Corps and proxies.

    It is the U.S. that is best placed to take the initiative to positively transform the status quo. Provided the July 2015 nuclear deal survives its test in Congress in September, the White House will have a fresh opportunity to turn to the Syrian portfolio. Steps to deter (or otherwise halt) aerial bombardment of civilian areas would help create conditions on the ground more conducive to an eventual negotiated resolution and also help answer critics at home and abroad who doubt its will to address the role of Iran and its proxies in Syria.

    These steps should be paired with a diplomatic initiative aimed not only at Moscow (with which Washington is more comfortable engaging on Syria) but also at Tehran, building on relationships developed during nuclear negotiations. Iran and the opposition’s regional backers are less capable themselves of shifting the status quo. That the former will receive (via sanctions relief) additional resources to spend in Syria if it so chooses, and that the latter fully expect Tehran to do so suggests that their short-term incentives to invest in current approaches will continue to overshadow the long-term imperatives of addressing the fundamental shortcomings of their respective strategies.

    In southern Syria, the U.S. has an opportunity to build on a positive local trend whose reinforcement could strengthen alternatives to Salafi-jihadis while clarifying the incentives and constraints perceived by the conflict’s other external players. Both are vital for improving prospects of a negotiated resolution. Given the prevailing currents of this war, however, there is no reason to assume that the conditions creating this opening will remain for long.

    The whole report is worth reading, because they’re not just coming up with that advice out of nowhere. But it isn’t their job to say “This is utterly hopeless,” so they’re grasping at straws, I think, in suggesting that a diplomatic overture to Moscow and Tehran might bear fruit. I’m all for trying, but nothing whatsoever in the recent (or historic) behavior of either Moscow or Tehran gives me any reason to feel optimistic on this score.

    I agree completely that there is no way to destroy ISIS while ignoring the regime’s role in stoking the fire. Russia’s increased involvement will only serve to make a disaster even worse — they won’t be able decisively to intervene on Assad’s side and end the war. ISIS is infinitely self-replenishing as long as Assad survives.

    • #102
  13. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Guruforhire:What does the migrant problem have to do with the Syrian civil war?

    Some of the migrants are Syrian refugees. More are economic migrants taking advantage of sympathy for the Syrian refugees.

    • #103
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    ISIS is infinitely self-replenishing as long as Assad survives.

    What about in Iraq or North Africa or anywhere else ISIS cognates seem to be springing up?  Do they all have Assad equivalents?

    • #104
  15. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Zafar:

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    ISIS is infinitely self-replenishing as long as Assad survives.

    What about in Iraq or North Africa or anywhere else ISIS cognates seem to be springing up? Do they all have Assad equivalents?

    No, but certainly the carnage in Syria is central to the recruiting narrative. This is obviously not to say it’s the sole cause: Boko Haram antedates ISIS by more than a decade, so it’s ridiculous to say that Assad brought Boko Haram into being. But these groups are pledging their allegiance to ISIS because ISIS has been so spectacularly “successful” — by its own grim terms — and it’s been so successful because of Assad. (Blame to go around abounds — and obviously ISIS itself is to blame for ISIS — but ISIS needs Assad, and vice-versa: they’re the others’ raison d’être.)

    • #105
  16. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Kozak: My dad was born in the Austro Hungarian Empire, grew up under a Romanian King, went to college under Romanian Fascists, was annexed to the USSR, married in the Third Reich, was under the Military Occupation in Austria, and finally was a citizen of the United States.

    Quite a life.

    • #106
  17. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: John Penfold:What do others you respect and who have deep experience in the region but opposite opinions from yours, think is doable?

    Here’s another report from RUSI (the Royal United Services Institute) with which I largely agree. That isn’t what you asked for: You asked if I could point you toward arguments with which I disagree but nonetheless respect. But this makes many of the arguments I’d make toward people who say things like, “The solution is arming proxies/bolstering the Kurds/doing nothing and hoping this burns out on its own” — and there are many people who say things like that. But the fact is, I don’t respect them, because I reckon they’re delusional.

    • #107
  18. Manfred Arcane Inactive
    Manfred Arcane
    @ManfredArcane

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    Manfred Arcane: Yes and no. They can begin slowly disengaging. If Peter Zeihan is right, and the US becomes progressively disinterested in the ME as it becomes completely energy independent over the next 5-10 years (due to fracking), and hence disinclined to exert itself to maintain the Saud family in power, the Saudis might see that they need to scramble to find their protector elsewhere.

    Sure. But they’re in a shooting war right now. And those refugees need a place to go right now. Ten years’ time, who knows: A lot can happen in ten years.

    There’s no such thing as a risk-free foreign policy decision, but I don’t see the Saudis turning to the Russians as their protector, chiefly because I don’t see the Russians having the slightest reason to want to be their protector. Not like Russia’s energy poor, and not like the Saudis have been anything but trouble for the world, is it?

    You surprise me here.  First off, cartelizing oil production between the two would make lots of sense.  Also driving a wedge between SA and US tends to diminish US influence over Sunni heartland.  Secondly, Iran is a competitor for influencing the Caucasus, so Russian influence with SA would afford them leverage with Iran…I mean one could probably think of several more reasons.  Just making Russia a bigger player on the world stage works to stroke the ego of Russian people – hence advantaging Putin.

    • #108
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