A Few Thoughts on Indiana and Coercion

 

imageConservatives are allergic to government coercion. This allergy informs all of our positions on public policy. It informs out position on religious freedom. The reason liberals can’t tell the difference between the promotion of liberty and promotion of “hate” all comes down to our differing views of coercion. For conservatives, political coercion is the original sin of authoritarian governments. For liberals, it is the glue that binds their entire moral identity.

Consider two pillars of the progressive left: Social Security and Obamacare. Would either of these programs survive even a month if they weren’t compulsory? Would any liberal program survive? And if this kind of coercion represents a social good, then it would not seem at all unethical to force a business owner into an involuntary transaction. Once you cross that line, “hate” is the only logical explanation for opposing their policies.

(Incidentally, I used to allowed for the possibility that the charge of “hate” is just an attempt to shut down debate by casting conservatives as unreasonable, but I have talked to enough liberals to know that they actually believe this stuff).

This is how a group of people convinces themselves that a law that allows free choice on all sides is like Jim Crow, but a law that limits choice and compels involuntary transactions is the opposite of Jim Crow. What is consistent then and now, is that the same party is pushing the coercion.

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  1. True_wesT Member
    True_wesT
    @TruewesT

    I think it’s a trap to talk about our differing views on marriage when it comes to public policy. Do these debates ever end in agreement? That’s why I wanted to focus on the matter of coercion, and how much we are willing to tolerate. This is the nucleus of all debates about government action from the right.

    Fred is correct to point out that labels confuse the discussion. The issue is statism, and you either support it to some degree or you don’t.

    This is why I find the 13th amendment angle interesting. This will (or should) come down to an interpretation of the law, and not normative conceptions of marriage.

    • #151
  2. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Ed G.:

    …..

    Several responses:

    1) “Centered around” isn’t the right question. Something north of 90% of people are heterosexual. In some sense everything is “centered around” heterosexuals and that is just an inevitable consequence of the math. As a homosexual, I ask only that the majority make room for us, not that universal institutions be “centered around” us.

    2) I don’t really have a dog in the fight over whether, when or how often something that can fairly be called “same sex marriage” has existed across time and cultures. I haven’t even tried to do the research. Given the relatively widespread anathematization of homosexuality I strongly suspect that more is lost, suppressed, or unknown, than known though. I do doubt that my generation is the first generation of homosexuals with a desire to make permanent family commitments, but I also don’t doubt that in many times and places there has been the same kind of wider social opposition to that desire that is exhibited on Ricochet every day in 2015.

    3) I also don’t really care about the history. I think we in the United States have in many ways improved upon the past in our social relations and would like to see that continue. Greater equality for and decency towards homosexuals seems to be the movement for improvement du jour and as a gay man I feel fortune not to have been born 40 years earlier than I was an envious of those born 40 years after me.

    3) I don’t care whether you care about the history or not. This little tangent was specifically related to claims about history, though.

    I know, and I didn’t start the tangent.  I’m just saying I’m not wedded to it or depending on it for my argument.

    • #152
  3. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Augustine:…..

    ….. You’re also stuck in a western, Christian mindset. Pagan, eastern, and native cultures in other parts of the world have all exhibited a lot of variety in how they approach the messy and various institution(s) that we gather together and label with the word “marriage.” In very, very many of them, heterosexual coupling has looked very different from what we recognize as “marriage” today too. ….

    Yes, but they all still centered around male/female coupling even if the specific forms and customs varied. Marriage served a particular purpose.

    I honestly think that in most Western societies it had more to do with preservation of capital.

    • #153
  4. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Augustine:

    Fair enough regarding the Symposium itself. But if it’s really true that I

    Yeah.  You’ve read the complete Plato.  When do those manuscripts date from?

    • #154
  5. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Cato Rand:

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Ed G.:

    …..

    Several responses:

    1) “Centered around” isn’t the right question. Something north of 90% of people are heterosexual. In some sense everything is “centered around” heterosexuals and that is just an inevitable consequence of the math. As a homosexual, I ask only that the majority make room for us, not that universal institutions be “centered around” us.

    2) I don’t really have a dog in the fight over whether, when or how often something that can fairly be called “same sex marriage” has existed across time and cultures. I haven’t even tried to do the research. Given the relatively widespread anathematization of homosexuality I strongly suspect that more is lost, suppressed, or unknown, than known though. I do doubt that my generation is the first generation of homosexuals with a desire to make permanent family commitments, but I also don’t doubt that in many times and places there has been the same kind of wider social opposition to that desire that is exhibited on Ricochet every day in 2015.

    3) I also don’t really care about the history. I think we in the United States have in many ways improved upon the past in our social relations and would like to see that continue. Greater equality for and decency towards homosexuals seems to be the movement for improvement du jour and as a gay man I feel fortune not to have been born 40 years earlier than I was an envious of those born 40 years after me.

    3) I don’t care whether you care about the history or not. This little tangent was specifically related to claims about history, though.

    I know, and I didn’t start the tangent. I’m just saying I’m not wedded to it or depending on it for my argument.

    Ok. Besides, it would be illegal in 44 states for you to wed your argument.

    (These are the jokes, people. They can’t all be golden.)

    • #155
  6. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Fred Cole:

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Augustine:…..

    ….. You’re also stuck in a western, Christian mindset. Pagan, eastern, and native cultures in other parts of the world have all exhibited a lot of variety in how they approach the messy and various institution(s) that we gather together and label with the word “marriage.” In very, very many of them, heterosexual coupling has looked very different from what we recognize as “marriage” today too. ….

    Yes, but they all still centered around male/female coupling even if the specific forms and customs varied. Marriage served a particular purpose.

    I honestly think that in most Western societies it had more to do with preservation of capital.

    …. because of the realities of male/female sex. Otherwise, last wills and testaments aren’t a new invention, nor are options for desired titling and joint ownership of property.

    • #156
  7. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Ed G.:

    Cato Rand:

    Ed G.:

    …..

    Several responses:

    1) “Centered around” isn’t the right question. Something north of 90% of people are heterosexual. In some sense everything is “centered around” heterosexuals and that is just an inevitable consequence of the math. As a homosexual, I ask only that the majority make room for us, not that universal institutions be “centered around” us.

    2) I don’t really have a dog in the fight over whether, when or how often something that can fairly be called “same sex marriage” has existed across time and cultures. I haven’t even tried to do the research. Given the relatively widespread anathematization of homosexuality I strongly suspect that more is lost, suppressed, or unknown, than known though. I do doubt that my generation is the first generation of homosexuals with a desire to make permanent family commitments, but I also don’t doubt that in many times and places there has been the same kind of wider social opposition to that desire that is exhibited on Ricochet every day in 2015.

    3) I also don’t really care about the history. I think we in the United States have in many ways improved upon the past in our social relations and would like to see that continue. Greater equality for and decency towards homosexuals seems to be the movement for improvement du jour and as a gay man I feel fortune not to have been born 40 years earlier than I was an envious of those born 40 years after me.

    3) I don’t care whether you care about the history or not. This little tangent was specifically related to claims about history, though.

    I know, and I didn’t start the tangent. I’m just saying I’m not wedded to it or depending on it for my argument.

    Ok. Besides, it would be illegal in 44 states for you to wed your argument.

    (These are the jokes, people. They can’t all be golden.)

    I hear things are changing in Massachusetts though!

    • #157
  8. user_836033 Member
    user_836033
    @WBob

    True_wesT:I think it’s a trap to talk about our differing views on marriage when it comes to public policy. Do these debates ever end in agreement? That’s why I wanted to focus on the matter of coercion, and how much we are willing to tolerate. This is the nucleus of all debates about government action from the right.

    Fred is correct to point out that labels confuse the discussion. The issue is statism, and you either support it to some degree or you don’t.

    This is why I find the 13th amendment angle interesting. This will (or should) come down to an interpretation of the law, and not normative conceptions of marriage.

    Bob W:

    I agree.  The problem is that we are letting our modern day hangups with “discrimination” and same sex marriage etc. trump the Constitution, which really doesn’t even address “discrimination” in the way we think of it today.  If we want to pass all kinds of laws against discrimination, it is incumbent on us to first make sure they fit within the limits of the Constitution. 

    • #158
  9. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Bob W:

    True_wesT:I think it’s a trap to talk about our differing views on marriage when it comes to public policy. Do these debates ever end in agreement? That’s why I wanted to focus on the matter of coercion, and how much we are willing to tolerate. This is the nucleus of all debates about government action from the right.

    Fred is correct to point out that labels confuse the discussion. The issue is statism, and you either support it to some degree or you don’t.

    This is why I find the 13th amendment angle interesting. This will (or should) come down to an interpretation of the law, and not normative conceptions of marriage.

    Bob W:

    I agree. The problem is that we are letting our modern day hangups with “discrimination” and same sex marriage etc. trump the Constitution, which really doesn’t even address “discrimination” in the way we think of it today. If we want to pass all kinds of laws against discrimination, it is incumbent on us to first make sure they fit within the limits of the Constitution.

    The Constitution does contain an “equal protection” clause which pretty clearly addresses discrimination.  We can argue about exactly how to apply it, but to suggest that the Constitution has nothing to say about the subject is wrong.

    • #159
  10. True_wesT Member
    True_wesT
    @TruewesT

    When our current president indulges in his coercive impulses, do you really think that he (or the judges that love him) cares about the constitution?

    • #160
  11. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    True_wesT:When our current president indulges in his coercive impulses, do you really think that he (or the judges that love him) cares about the constitution?

    Was that question to me?  (No, would be my answer, BTW.)

    • #161
  12. Ricochet Member
    Ricochet
    @SaintAugustine

    Fred Cole:

    Yeah. You’ve read the complete Plato. When do those manuscripts date from?

    I don’t know.  I’ve never studied Plato textual criticism.

    • #162
  13. FridayNightEcon Inactive
    FridayNightEcon
    @FridayNightEcon

    Fred Cole:

    So, I can definitely appreciate this.

    But alcohol causes problems too. Alcohol ruins people. I’ve seen it. It ruins families. It harms children. It does all these horrible things. We tried banning it, and that was an utter failure, and the consequences were horrible.

    Fred, I’m trying to get informed, not argue.  You compare alcohol and heroin use.  Can there use really be closely analogized?  Sure it can on the “destructive” side.

    But is there really a significant portion of the population that uses heroin daily in moderation, with some suggested health benefits, as part of healthy social interactions?

    • #163
  14. user_309277 Inactive
    user_309277
    @AdamKoslin

    FridayNightEcon:

    Fred Cole:

    So, I can definitely appreciate this.

    But alcohol causes problems too. Alcohol ruins people. I’ve seen it. It ruins families. It harms children. It does all these horrible things. We tried banning it, and that was an utter failure, and the consequences were horrible.

    Fred, I’m trying to get informed, not argue. You compare alcohol and heroin use. Can there use really be closely analogized? Sure it can on the “destructive” side.

    But is there really a significant portion of the population that uses heroin daily in moderation, with some suggested health benefits, as part of healthy social interactions?

    I mean, it’s not precisely heroin, but from what I understand morphine and a bunch of other potent painkillers are heroin’s kissing cousins.  Opiates, all of ’em.

    • #164
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