Amnesty and America’s Bottom Line—D.C. McAllister

 

As an Investor’s Business Daily editorial said at the beginning of this year, major businesses are calling for immigration reform because it’s good for their bottom lines even though it’s bad for America’s. 

Politicians and big business have colluded in the push for amnesty: “Businesses like cheap labor. And politicians like political contributions from business. So they’ve formed an unholy alliance to push the idea that costs for amnesty for illegals would outweigh the benefits. But they don’t.”

According to the Heritage Foundation, illegal immigrant households cost U.S. taxpayers $55 billion per year. Some argue that those costs would go away after amnesty because illegals would become taxpayers. But that doesn’t pan out. The costs would actually go up to nearly $160 billion. And that’s just for illegals already here. 

Why would the costs go up? Because “amnesty would provide unlawful households with access to over 80 means-tested welfare programs, ObamaCare, Social Security and Medicare. The fiscal deficit for each household would soar.”

So why do businesses want amnesty even though it will hurt America? The bottom line is cheap labor. They want to increase the flow of low-skilled workers willing to work for minimum wage and “do the job Americans won’t do.”

But why won’t Americans do those jobs? It’s because they get more money from welfare benefits than going out and working.

It is isn’t that there are jobs Americans won’t do. It’s that there are jobs Americans on welfare don’t want to do.

If we open the borders so that businesses can have their cheap labor (and politicians can continue to get their checks from big business), what happens when all those new workers figure out that they can get more money sitting on the couch rather than working minimum wage jobs?

Human nature is what it is. If we already have a bunch of people unwilling to work because government benefits make it easier not to, it’s logical to assume that immigrants will one day do the same. What happens to our deficits then? What happens to the country?

Both big business and its allied politicians need to look past their short-term interests and consider the future implications of what they’re asking for—because it ain’t pretty. If they don’t, one can only assume they care more about the bottom line than the future of the country.

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  1. Carey J. Inactive
    Carey J.
    @CareyJ

    Mike H:

    rico: Does this “human right to self determination” trump the human right to self-determination that a country’s people agree on collectively? That is, the right to determine how many people, possessing what types of skillsets to welcome into the country?

    I’ve answered this many times. Yes it does. People would have to aggregate their individual personal property to decide to exclude others. It’s wrong to restrict my neighbor from inviting certain people to live with them. It is also wrong to say that existing in the country we were born in is equivalent to consent to the violations of human rights the people choose to impose by the rules the country follows.

    By this logic, a convicted criminal’s right to self-determination trumps society’s right to incarcerate him as punishment for his crimes. The right to say who can go where, when they can go there, and under what circumstances they they can go there is a fundamental characteristic of a society. Society tells us to drive on the streets, not through peoples yards. Try to take a flamethrower into a courthouse. Let us know how it works out for you.

    • #61
  2. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    I think Mike H. or Yandusha needs to start an open borders thread and lay out their vision(s) on the matter.  I would like to see the logic for it, any references to advocating philosophers and their explanations, and most importantly, how to make it work practically.

    • #62
  3. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Carey J.:

    Mike H:

    I’ve answered this many times. Yes it does. People would have to aggregate their individual personal property to decide to exclude others. It’s wrong to restrict my neighbor from inviting certain people to live with them. It is also wrong to say that existing in the country we were born in is equivalent to consent to the violations of human rights the people choose to impose by the rules the country follows.

    By this logic, a convicted criminal’s right to self-determination trumps society’s right to incarcerate him as punishment for his crimes. The right to say who can go where, when they can go there, and under what circumstances they they can go there is a fundamental characteristic of a society. Society tells us to drive on the streets, not through peoples yards. Try to take a flamethrower into a courthouse. Let us know how it works out for you.

    Sure, if you uncharitably assume there is nothing more to the logic than a couple specific <200 word comments. Your right to self determination ends at my personal property. Violate that and I’m allowed to stop you.

    • #63
  4. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Carey J.:

    Mike H:

    Arahant: The gang member? Sorry, but no.

    I agree if you can prove he’s a gang member. But having low skills does not make you unworthy of the same opportunity as those with high skills. I thought this was an American value.

    And if you simply throw the border open to everyone, you don’t find out who’s the gang member until he’s in the country, committing mayhem. That’s too late for his victims.

     Why aren’t we rounding up suspected/know gang members and putting them in jail or deporting them to a 3rd world country? It would be logically equivalent.

    • #64
  5. Carey J. Inactive
    Carey J.
    @CareyJ

    Mike H:

    Carey J.:

    Mike H:

    I’ve answered this many times. Yes it does. People would have to aggregate their individual personal property to decide to exclude others. It’s wrong to restrict my neighbor from inviting certain people to live with them. …

    By this logic, a convicted criminal’s right to self-determination trumps society’s right to incarcerate him as punishment for his crimes. The right to say who can go where, when they can go there, and under what circumstances they they can go there is a fundamental characteristic of a society. …

    Sure, if you uncharitably assume there is nothing more to the logic than a couple specific <200 word comments. Your right to self determination ends at my personal property. Violate that and I’m allowed to stop you.

    If someone violates your personal property, society has a say in how you respond. If a kid cuts across your yard going home from school, you can’t just shoot him. And your right to shelter anyone you please on your property is not unlimited, either. Hide a fugitive from the law and the cops will be all over you like ants on spilled maple sugar.

    • #65
  6. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Arahant:

    I think Mike H. or Yandusha needs to start an open borders thread and lay out their vision(s) on the matter. I would like to see the logic for it, any references to advocating philosophers and their explanations, and most importantly, how to make it work practically.

    Michael Huemer is probably the best philosopher. Then there’s just about any economist at George Mason University. Bryan Caplan is my personal favorite. Then there’s Ricochet member Nathan Smith, son of Merina Smith and sister of Rachel Lu (I think), who argues from a Conservative perspective. He’s a major blogger at openborders.info which is a site that takes the critisisms seriously and provides counterarguments.

    Here’s me taking on Mark Krikorian. He joined in! Which was awesome.

    • #66
  7. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Carey J.:

    Mike H:

    Carey J.:

    By this logic, a convicted criminal’s right to self-determination trumps society’s right to incarcerate him as punishment for his crimes. The right to say who can go where, when they can go there, and under what circumstances they they can go there is a fundamental characteristic of a society. …

    Sure, if you uncharitably assume there is nothing more to the logic than a couple specific <200 word comments. Your right to self determination ends at my personal property. Violate that and I’m allowed to stop you.

    If someone violates your personal property, society has a say in how you respond. If a kid cuts across your yard going home from school, you can’t just shoot him. And your right to shelter anyone you please on your property is not unlimited, either. Hide a fugitive from the law and the cops will be all over you like ants on spilled maple sugar.

     I agree, but the appropriate response stems from proper morality, not whatever society says is proper.

    • #67
  8. Carey J. Inactive
    Carey J.
    @CareyJ

    Mike H:

    Carey J.:

    Mike H:

    Arahant: The gang member? Sorry, but no.

    I agree if you can prove he’s a gang member. But having low skills does not make you unworthy of the same opportunity as those with high skills. I thought this was an American value.

    And if you simply throw the border open to everyone, you don’t find out who’s the gang member until he’s in the country, committing mayhem. That’s too late for his victims.

    Why aren’t we rounding up suspected/know gang members and putting them in jail or deporting them to a 3rd world country? It would be logically equivalent.

    We do deport some foreign gang members. We also jail some of them. We’d have to do it less often if we took the time to identify them before we let them in the country. Must America make itself a dumping ground for the worlds violent criminals?

    The America of today is not the America of Ellis Island. It was easier to hire people or start a business back then. Today, we have a weak jobs market and a regulatory regime designed to destroy small businesses.

    • #68
  9. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Carey J.: Must America make itself a dumping ground for the worlds violent criminals?

     Mariel boatlift, anyone?

    • #69
  10. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Carey J.: Must America make itself a dumping ground for the worlds violent criminals?

     No, we don’t have to let in violent criminals, that would be sufficient to overcome the presumption of free migration.

    • #70
  11. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Wanna read something that will boil your blood ?

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/03/big-chicken-in-mississippi-politics/

    Here’s Haley Barbour, spouting K Street wisdom:

    Working at a slaughterhouse is “nasty, dirty work where every day the [workers] come home covered in blood and guts, veins and feet and feathers,” Barbour said at an immigration-boosting event held by the Bipartisan Policy Center, an D.C-based business advocacy group.

    Not even convicts in the state’s work-release program will do the job, Barbour added. “The inmates, they won’t stay two days, they’d rather be in a penitentiary than work in a chicken plant,” he said.

    The conditions are so terrible that Americans won’t work in the slaughterhouses, and the companies have to hire illegals, Barbour suggested.

    “You go into a chicken-processing plant anywhere in Mississippi, and if you can find somebody on the floor who speaks English, I’ll give you $100,” he said, before making a pitch for a new immigration reform that would allow companies to hire more foreign workers in place of Americans.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/03/big-chicken-in-mississippi-politics/#ixzz30fOnlnyW

    • #71
  12. D.C. McAllister Inactive
    D.C. McAllister
    @DCMcAllister

    Randy Webster:

    I’m confused about what the $55 billion means. Per year? Per decade? I hate it when the gov’t tells us what a program will cost over ten years. What’s it going to cost next year? And savings over 10 years really piss me off.

     per year. sorry, thought I put that in. fixed it.

    • #72
  13. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Mike H:

    Carey J.: Must America make itself a dumping ground for the worlds violent criminals?

    No, we don’t have to let in violent criminals, that would be sufficient to overcome the presumption of free migration.

     …and how do we know who is and who isn’t a violent criminal? And why draw the line at “violent?” Should we welcome petty thieves and vandalizers? How about substance abusers and deadbeats? What standard do you suggest and how would it be implemented? What is the “proper morality?”

    • #73
  14. TKC1101 Member
    TKC1101
    @

    There are no big donors who care about 92. Million long term unemployed American citizens. The only voice they had was the Tea Party. The single biggest fear of the donor class is organizing their voices.

    • #74
  15. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    rico:

    Mike H:

    No, we don’t have to let in violent criminals, that would be sufficient to overcome the presumption of free migration.

    …and how do we know who is and who isn’t a violent criminal? And why draw the line at “violent?” Should we welcome petty thieves and vandalizers? How about substance abusers and deadbeats? What standard do you suggest and how would it be implemented? What is the “proper morality?”

    It’s that the presumption is to allow people to move where they want. Why don’t we lock up thieves and vandalizers their whole lives? Aren’t we putting ourselves at undue risk by letting them roam around the countryside? A person must pose an highly curtain threat before someone is justified in stopping them. The vast majority of people in the modern world do not meet that criteria.

    • #75
  16. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Mike H:

    rico:

    Mike H:

    No, we don’t have to let in violent criminals, that would be sufficient to overcome the presumption of free migration.

    …and how do we know who is and who isn’t a violent criminal? And why draw the line at “violent?” Should we welcome petty thieves and vandalizers? How about substance abusers and deadbeats? What standard do you suggest and how would it be implemented? What is the “proper morality?”

    It’s that the presumption is to allow people to move where they want. Why don’t we lock up thieves and vandalizers their whole lives? Aren’t we putting ourselves at undue risk by letting them roam around the countryside? A person must pose an highly curtain threat before someone is justified in stopping them. The vast majority of people in the modern world do not meet that criteria.

     In other words, you are proposing an honor system. There would be no system to screen out violent criminals. You would like us to welcome everyone and deal with problems as they arise. Anything more prohibitive would be unjust.

    Mike, I’m sorry but you’re just not selling this.

    • #76
  17. user_358258 Inactive
    user_358258
    @RandyWebster

    Mike H,

    I want to make sure I understand your position.  Is it that you think that there should be no borders?  That nations are constructs that should not exist?  I can’t quite follow where you’re leading.  You seem to be saying that citizenship means nothing.  Is that the case?

    • #77
  18. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Randy Webster:

    Mike H,

    I want to make sure I understand your position. Is it that you think that there should be no borders? That nations are constructs that should not exist? I can’t quite follow where you’re leading. You seem to be saying that citizenship means nothing. Is that the case?

    Borders are fine for delineating jurisdiction. I just think it’s wrong to keep people out of your borders for the sake of protectionism/xenophobia. The laws here will still apply to them, but a law saying they can’t come here in the first place is immoral.

    Citizenship is also fine when it furthers freedom/solves disputes, but just as things can be unconstitutional, they can be uneconomic or violate human rights. These are immoral types of laws. This covers Obamacare and all types of forced charity. But this also covers denying people from taking a job from a willing employer because they were born in the wrong country and don’t have the right connections. Immigrants don’t need to be given citizenship, or welfare, nor their children, in theory. They just need to be given the opportunity to live here if they choose.

    • #78
  19. user_358258 Inactive
    user_358258
    @RandyWebster

    And you think that there is no reason to control your borders other than protectionism/xenophobia? 

    I’m glad you’ve taken it upon yourself to declare that wanting to control the border is immoral.  I think that our definitions of immoral will differ on this point.  I’ll take mine, thank you.

    • #79
  20. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Mike H: Citizenship is also fine when it furthers freedom/solves disputes, but just as things can be unconstitutional, they can be uneconomic or violate human rights. These are immoral types of laws. This covers Obamacare and all types of forced charity. But this also covers denying people from taking a job from a willing employer because they were born in the wrong country and don’t have the right connections. Immigrants don’t need to be given citizenship, or welfare, nor their children, in theory.

    Statelessness.

    • #80
  21. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Mike,
    You haven’t explained why it is ‘immoral’ to regulate national borders, nor have you explained the source of people’s ‘human right’ to go wherever one pleases. You simply assert these things. Until you can explain the basis of these claims, no reasoning person can take your theory seriously.

    • #81
  22. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    rico:

    Mike, You haven’t explained why it is ‘immoral’ to regulate national borders, nor have you explained the source of people’s ‘human right’ to go wherever one pleases. You simply assert these things. Until you can explain the basis of these claims, no reasoning person can take your theory seriously.

     The only way to understand Mike’s philosophy is to listen to John Lennon’s Imagine a few times. And start chanting “property is theft.”

    • #82
  23. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    rico:

    Mike, You haven’t explained why it is ‘immoral’ to regulate national borders, nor have you explained the source of people’s ‘human right’ to go wherever one pleases. You simply assert these things. Until you can explain the basis of these claims, no reasoning person can take your theory seriously.

    Really? A series of terse comments haven’t convinced you to radically change your opinion on immigration? Shocking. :)

    I’ve already linked to this once, but this fleshes out the whole rational better than I can in bits and pieces.

    • #83
  24. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Petty Boozswha:

    rico:

    Mike, You haven’t explained why it is ‘immoral’ to regulate national borders, nor have you explained the source of people’s ‘human right’ to go wherever one pleases. You simply assert these things. Until you can explain the basis of these claims, no reasoning person can take your theory seriously.

    The only way to understand Mike’s philosophy is to listen to John Lennon’s Imagine a few times. And start chanting “property is theft.”

    This always perplexes me. That a philosophy based solely on protecting the property rights of individuals can be construed to mean property is invalid. Property is the fundamental human right that everything else stems from.

    • #84
  25. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Mike H:

    rico:

    Mike, You haven’t explained why it is ‘immoral’ to regulate national borders, nor have you explained the source of people’s ‘human right’ to go wherever one pleases. You simply assert these things. Until you can explain the basis of these claims, no reasoning person can take your theory seriously.

    I’ve already linked to this once, but this fleshes out the whole rational better than I can in bits and pieces.

    If you, as a proponent,  are unable to answer a few simple questions, why should I waste time on this bizarre paper:

    My strategy is to argue, first, that immigration restriction is at least a prima facie violation of the rights of potential immigrants. This imposes a burden on advocates of restriction to cite some special conditions that either neutralize or outweigh the relevant prima facie right.

    So when I looked in: “2. Immigration Restriction as a Prima Facie Rights Violation,” the author fails to even make an argument supporting his proposition. He simply restates it. Or did I miss something?

    • #85
  26. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Mike H:

    This always perplexes me. That a philosophy based solely on protecting the property rights of individuals can be construed to mean property is invalid. Property is the fundamental human right that everything else stems from.

     Property without a prohibition on trespassing is not property, illegal aliens are to real property what shoplifters are to chattel property.

    • #86
  27. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    rico: My strategy is to argue, first, that immigration restriction is at least a prima facie violation of the rights of potential immigrants. This imposes a burden on advocates of restriction to cite some special conditions that either neutralize or outweigh the relevant prima facie right.

     That was a peer-reviewed journal?  That just goes to show there is something broken in the peer-review process.  Maybe instead of review by peers, we should have it reviewed by someone sensible and trained in logic.

    • #87
  28. rico Inactive
    rico
    @rico

    Arahant:

    rico: My strategy is to argue, first, that immigration restriction is at least a prima facie violation of the rights of potential immigrants. This imposes a burden on advocates of restriction to cite some special conditions that either neutralize or outweigh the relevant prima facie right.

    That was a peer-reviewed journal? That just goes to show there is something broken in the peer-review process. Maybe instead of review by peers, we should have it reviewed by someone sensible and trained in logic.

     AAHHH!!
    Just to clarify, that’s a quote from the paper Mike H. linked to. It’s not mine.

    • #88
  29. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    rico: AAHHH!! Just to clarify, that’s a quote from the paper Mike H. linked to. It’s not mine.

     No, I know that.  I traced it back to where it was published in Social Theory and Practice.  Scary stuff.

    • #89
  30. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    The real question is whether Mike H. is the same as Michael Huemer.  Profile says Columbus, OH.  Paper on Colorado.edu.

    Editing post to add:  The reason that question matters is because it would be easier to engage in a critical discussion of the paper with the author than a mere fan of the author.

    • #90
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