How does a ship lose power this way?

 

This is going to end up being declared a preventable accident. My prediction is that money was saved on maintenance and had a catastrophic failure at the wrong time and people died.

Whomever owns this company should be extradited when it all comes out.

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  1. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Addiction Is A Choice (View Comment):

    Thankfully, we have qualified, expert personnel in the Department of Transportation.

    Has Pete issued his verdict, or is he on maternity leave again?

    • #61
  2. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    People are trying to make something of the drastic turn but someone speculated it was dropping anchor to drag and brake.  I’m looking for confirmation. Other than unfortunate series off circumstances, I doubt if anything else is found.

     

    • #62
  3. Globalitarian Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Chris O (View Comment):

    I think it was NBC said the wind caught it and turned the ship after it lost power. Wind conditions seemed almost placid if you look at the video I shared earlier. The water isn’t showing any gust and just a light breeze. That could be enough to have a small effect, but it would need more than a minute of power loss.

    I think the pilot (reportedly, two pilots were consulting on the bridge, but they were not at the helm) or captain was taking the channel at an angle and hadn’t completed the turn to go through. He might be hot-dogging it (not following exact procedure) just a bit because there is no port traffic, then the unthinkable happens.

    Controlling a single-prop (screw) vessel is all about mass and inertia. Unlike a ski boat, the prop doesn’t turn so you need propulsion power to do it. If you’ve ever tried to steer a paddle boat without paddling, then you know the problem. The rudder is near useless without that paddle propulsion.

    There was a trend for a while in outfitting ships with thrusters (starboard and port propellers for better controlled movement in port). I’m not sure I’ve seen them on ships of this size. At any rate, the Dali doesn’t have them and I’m not sure they would have been enough. It’s an expensive add on.

    A tug escort might have been able to help the turn and might have also trimmed enough momentum that the ship could have avoided the pylon once the propulsion came back. We’ll never know. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

    There’s the portside anchor, but if the ship were restarted and put into reverse a single screw would create propeller walk.  I’ve seen boats walk the stern to port when highly revved, pivoting on its center of resistance, even while moving forward.

    • #63
  4. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    So therefore all other accidents can be assumed, before few facts are known, to be the result of cost-cutting measures?

    • #64
  5. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I am not saying companies should not make profits. I am saying that when they cause people to die because they cut costs to make more money, that is a problem.

    Or do all the people defending companies think if people die, that’s OK?

    zero lives lost? zero risk? The world cannot be Nerf’d to that extent.

    Did not ask for that either.

    You kind of did.  It will always be possible for a company to spend “more money” to reduce the possibility of a death from use of their product.  How do you define the legal/moral boundary between “we’ve spent enough” and “you’re cutting costs just to make money”.

    Do you think it is acceptable for a company to mess up and people die?

    Companies and people will always mess up and people will always die.  That’s a 100% unavoidable fact of life.

     

     

    • #65
  6. David Foster Member
    David Foster
    @DavidFoster

    Information about the ship in question:  Construction started in 2014, power is a single MAN 55000 horsepower diesel. Fixed pitch propeller.  Owned by a Greek company, chartered to Maersk.

    Link

     

    • #66
  7. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Ricochet Lawyers,

    In your professional opinion, might Bryan’s recommendation of extradition be at all premature at this point in the criminal trial?

    Maritime law is it’s own thing. Shipping has run the world the last 400 years and the laws are setup accordingly.

    Sorry, I was joking.

    • #67
  8. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Ricochet Lawyers,

    In your professional opinion, might Bryan’s recommendation of extradition be at all premature at this point in the criminal trial?

    Yes.

    There are probably a few corporate layers to wade through, issues of who was in charge (e.g., MAERSK or nominal shipowner?) and complicated nationality. All that also makes it unlikely and also very hard to prove that the guy at the top knew that the ship was not in proper condition.

    Civil jurisdiction will be much easier to establish and big cash judgments are more painful to a corporation than a failed criminal prosecution of a couple of executives or managers. Every box on that ship is a potential claim. The ripple effective of losses will spread widely and there will be some seriously creative tort lawyering as a result.

    It just feels like that is just not good enough.

     

    Sorry to both OB and Bryan. My Comment was meant to be ironic.

    • #68
  9. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    Totally? Are you sure you haven’t been listening to the sensationalist news media? Here’s a WSJ article by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. It’s kinda vague, which isn’t a good sign, but maybe that’s all we have now.

    Understanding the Boeing Mess : An overlooked NTSB report and why the two 737 MAX crashes were different.

     

     

    Well that link on crashes does not have to do with the Alaska Airline incident I was talking about.

    • #69
  10. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    Totally? Are you sure you haven’t been listening to the sensationalist news media? Here’s a WSJ article by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. It’s kinda vague, which isn’t a good sign, but maybe that’s all we have now.

    Understanding the Boeing Mess : An overlooked NTSB report and why the two 737 MAX crashes were different.

     

     

    Well that link on crashes does not have to do with the Alaska Airline incident I was talking about.

    I thought you were talking about this.  If not, it was my bad.  

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    • #70
  11. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    Totally? Are you sure you haven’t been listening to the sensationalist news media? Here’s a WSJ article by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. It’s kinda vague, which isn’t a good sign, but maybe that’s all we have now.

    Understanding the Boeing Mess : An overlooked NTSB report and why the two 737 MAX crashes were different.

     

     

    Well that link on crashes does not have to do with the Alaska Airline incident I was talking about.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    • #71
  12. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    So therefore all other accidents can be assumed, before few facts are known, to be the result of cost-cutting measures?

    I made a prediction based on the following:

    A. Many companies are pushing more and more ways to cost save above all else. We have seen it in several places. 

    B. Container ships are actually not the best built or maintained ships in the world. I have seen more than one report to that effect. 

    So, yeah, I have made a prediction. 

    That does not mean I think “only evil companies seek to cut costs”. My OP has nothing remotely like that. But, it was so important to you to castigate me, you had to put words into my mouth.  

    I have not called all cost cutting evil. What I have said, quite clearly, is I expect we will find out that cost cutting is the ultimate thing to blame. That is perfectly fair prediction, as much as someone blaming DEI would be. Your comment was no more warranted than Vol’s calling me a Marxist.

    Apparently, either I am 100% behind every single attempt to boost profit, or I am a commie! 

     

    • #72
  13. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I am not saying companies should not make profits. I am saying that when they cause people to die because they cut costs to make more money, that is a problem.

    Or do all the people defending companies think if people die, that’s OK?

    zero lives lost? zero risk? The world cannot be Nerf’d to that extent.

    Did not ask for that either.

    You kind of did.

     

    No. I. Did. Not. 

    It will always be possible for a company to spend “more money” to reduce the possibility of a death from use of their product. How do you define the legal/moral boundary between “we’ve spent enough” and “you’re cutting costs just to make money”.

    Obviously this is not what I meant. There is a huge difference between demanding, say, a totally redundant power plant on standby just because, and demanding a reasonable standard of keeping things maintained. Saving money by not paying for upkeep is not acceptable. 

    Do you think it is acceptable for a company to mess up and people die?

    Companies and people will always mess up and people will always die. That’s a 100% unavoidable fact of life.

     

    I did not ask if it happens, I asked it it was acceptable. 

     

     

    • #73
  14. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    Totally? Are you sure you haven’t been listening to the sensationalist news media? Here’s a WSJ article by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. It’s kinda vague, which isn’t a good sign, but maybe that’s all we have now.

    Understanding the Boeing Mess : An overlooked NTSB report and why the two 737 MAX crashes were different.

    Well that link on crashes does not have to do with the Alaska Airline incident I was talking about.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Excuse me, but the comment he was responding too was this:

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    That is what I was talking about when cost cutting. That.

     

    Edit: Oh and the man you defending understood after I corrected him. I think he can fight his own battles.

    • #74
  15. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    Totally? Are you sure you haven’t been listening to the sensationalist news media? Here’s a WSJ article by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr. It’s kinda vague, which isn’t a good sign, but maybe that’s all we have now.

    Understanding the Boeing Mess : An overlooked NTSB report and why the two 737 MAX crashes were different.

     

     

    Well that link on crashes does not have to do with the Alaska Airline incident I was talking about.

    I thought you were talking about this. If not, it was my bad.

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    Thank you, Yes, and that is because of cost cutting.

    • #75
  16. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I thought you were talking about this. If not, it was my bad.

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    Thank you, Yes, and that is because of cost cutting.

    How do you know that?   

    Mind you, every company should always be thinking about cost-cutting, but that’s not the same as cost-cutting above all else.   

    • #76
  17. Globalitarian Misanthropist Coolidge
    Globalitarian Misanthropist
    @Flicker

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I am a commie! 

    Yes !  I knew it!!  You finally admit it!

    (The above quote may have been taken out of context or be a part of a longer quote that the reader may want to investigate independently.)

    • #77
  18. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I thought you were talking about this. If not, it was my bad.

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    Thank you, Yes, and that is because of cost cutting.

    How do you know that?

    Mind you, every company should always be thinking about cost-cutting, but that’s not the same as cost-cutting above all else.

    Instead of assembling the fuselage in Boeing plants, they’ve outsourced it to a company called “Spirit.” Only final assembly is done in Boeing plants.

    I’ll add that as a cost-cutting measure, Boeing no longer has engineers on test flights for QA/design issues. They’ve outsourced that to an Indian company that runs simulations.

    I’m sure I can find other cost-cutting items that would seem to bear on the overall safety and reliability of Boeing aircraft, but I have more productive things to do. I’ll say that Bryan has some strong points as they relate to Boeing, and we don’t know if similar issues are at play in the Dali vs the FSK bridge incident. After all, it’s been less than 24 hours.

    • #78
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    But if all vehicle traffic had cleared the bridge first, who got killed?  How many people WALK across that bridge?

    • #79
  20. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I thought you were talking about this. If not, it was my bad.

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    Thank you, Yes, and that is because of cost cutting.

    How do you know that?

    Mind you, every company should always be thinking about cost-cutting, but that’s not the same as cost-cutting above all else.

    What I have seen reported on it.

    • #80
  21. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    kedavis (View Comment):

    But if all vehicle traffic had cleared the bridge first, who got killed? How many people WALK across that bridge?

    There were eight workers on the bridge fixing potholes, and six are still missing. 

    • #81
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    But if all vehicle traffic had cleared the bridge first, who got killed? How many people WALK across that bridge?

    There were eight workers on the bridge fixing potholes, and six are still missing.

    Okay, but the media sound like it’s dozens or hundreds.

    • #82
  23. Comfortably Superannuated Member
    Comfortably Superannuated
    @OldDanRhody

    Globalitarian Misanthropist (View Comment):
    There’s the portside anchor, but if the ship were restarted and put into reverse a single screw would create propeller walk.  I’ve seen boats walk the stern to port when highly revved, pivoting on its center of resistance, even while moving forward.

    Correct, I’ve done it myself.  But a 20 foot work boat is several orders of magnitude away from a ship nearly 1000 feet long and displacing 95000 tons.

    • #83
  24. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I thought you were talking about this. If not, it was my bad.

    January’s nonfatal door-plug blowout of an Alaska Airlines 737 appears to have been a one-off when Boeing workers failed to reinstall the plug properly after removing it to fix faulty fuselage rivets. Not a one-off, apparently, are faulty rivets as Boeing has strained to hire new staff and resume production of half-finished planes.

    Thank you, Yes, and that is because of cost cutting.

    How do you know that?

    Mind you, every company should always be thinking about cost-cutting, but that’s not the same as cost-cutting above all else.

    Instead of assembling the fuselage in Boeing plants, they’ve outsourced it to a company called “Spirit.” Only final assembly is done in Boeing plants.

    I’ll add that as a cost-cutting measure, Boeing no longer has engineers on test flights for QA/design issues. They’ve outsourced that to an Indian company that runs simulations.

    I’m sure I can find other cost-cutting items that would seem to bear on the overall safety and reliability of Boeing aircraft, but I have more productive things to do. I’ll say that Bryan has some strong points as they relate to Boeing, and we don’t know if similar issues are at play in the Dali vs the FSK bridge incident. After all, it’s been less than 24 hours.

    Some part of the software is being done overseas too. I don’t know how much. I don’t have the contacts with them that I once did.

    • #84
  25. DonG (CAGW is a Scam) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Scam)
    @DonG

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Kudos to the local LEOs. There are reports from WJZ in Baltimore that the pilot radioed in about the loss of power and the possibility of hitting the bridge and within two minutes traffic had been blocked at both ends. It seems the last of the traffic on the bridge cleared just before the collapse.

    So much for all the talk of ISIS-K ramming the bridge.  Often, an accident is just an accident.

    • #85
  26. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Boeing aircraft are dropping parts from the sky after several of them decided to fly themselves into the ground.

    Like Boeing issues, I believe we will find the root culprit is cost cutting measures.

    Yeah, because only evil companies seek to cut costs.

    Honestly, isn’t it a bit premature to rush into this? They’re still looking for survivors (increasingly less likely in these cold temps), and you’re already pronouncing the company guilty.

    Boeing’s panel fell off totally because of cost cutting measures.

    So therefore all other accidents can be assumed, before few facts are known, to be the result of cost-cutting measures?

    I made a prediction based on the following:

    A. Many companies are pushing more and more ways to cost save above all else. We have seen it in several places.

    B. Container ships are actually not the best built or maintained ships in the world. I have seen more than one report to that effect.

    So, yeah, I have made a prediction.

    That does not mean I think “only evil companies seek to cut costs”. My OP has nothing remotely like that. But, it was so important to you to castigate me, you had to put words into my mouth.

    I have not called all cost cutting evil. What I have said, quite clearly, is I expect we will find out that cost cutting is the ultimate thing to blame. That is perfectly fair prediction, as much as someone blaming DEI would be. Your comment was no more warranted than Vol’s calling me a Marxist.

    Apparently, either I am 100% behind every single attempt to boost profit, or I am a commie!

     

    I have known two people who worked on the style container ship that this thing was. Both of them stated that there were crews of six people max.

    Whether they were misinformed, which seems unlikely as they worked on the ships or else the statement of 29 people being on board the ship that took out the bridge is not at all representative of how things often are.

    • #86
  27. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

     

    Legalman on “X” weighs in on the event:

    • #87
  28. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    DonG (CAGW is a Scam) (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Kudos to the local LEOs. There are reports from WJZ in Baltimore that the pilot radioed in about the loss of power and the possibility of hitting the bridge and within two minutes traffic had been blocked at both ends. It seems the last of the traffic on the bridge cleared just before the collapse.

    So much for all the talk of ISIS-K ramming the bridge. Often, an accident is just an accident.

    If you’re going to use a ship to ram a bridge as a terror attack, you don’t do it at 1:30 AM on a Tuesday morning.

    • #88
  29. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    https://www.businesstoday.in/amp/industry/aviation/story/used-dish-soap-as-lubricant-in-door-seal-faas-boeing-737-max-audit-finds-unacceptable-lapses-422794-2024-03-26

     

    • #89
  30. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

     

    Legalman on “X” weighs in on the event:

    And what pray tell do you expect this thwarted investigation to have revealed?

    • #90
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