Voluntary Involuntary Disarmament

 

For those (like me) who have concerns about what American interest is served by our financial and military material support for Ukraine, there is a theory that the American arms establishment is pushing the conflict and looking to goose their bottom lines by selling the US government arms to replace those sent to Ukraine. But what if that isn’t so?

There is a Powerline post out today that raises questions about the ability of arms providers to rearm America. Quoting from the Wall Street Journal:

[T]he largest ground war in Europe since World War II isn’t translating into boom times for U.S. defense contractors. Hobbled by supply chain disruptions, a tight labor market and a Pentagon procurement process that can take years, arms makers have been struggling to respond to the soaring demand. . .

When the Pentagon ordered new Stinger antiaircraft missiles—widely used in Ukraine—in August, it was the first U.S. order from Raytheon for the weapons in 18 years. By December, Ukraine had burned through 13 years of production, said Greg Hayes, chief executive of Raytheon. Five years worth of Javelin missiles had also been used in the conflict.

Raytheon was still making some Stingers for an overseas customer before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but found some suppliers had gone out of business and had to redesign parts to boost production.

Couple that with the chart from Center for Strategic & International Studies and you begin to wonder whether arms merchants really are behind Biden’s actions or whether they are untethered from reality:

When they say “follow the money,” whose money should you be following? If the cupboard is bare and it will be a while before you can fill it up again, how are the arms merchants profiting in the near term from sales that can’t be completed for months/years? If America is to avoid a nuclear exchange with Russia, the theory is it is because the Russians know that we could defeat them even with just conventional weaponry. But what if the Ukrainians have already thrown our conventional arms at the Russians? What is the deterrent then?

I once had a boss that said, “Don’t let your mouth promise something my *ss can’t deliver.” If arms producers are pushing this conflict, has the sales department been talking to manufacturing? Russians have spreadsheets, too. They can calculate the tipping point where either we, or the Ukrainians, don’t have enough armaments to finish the job.

And don’t take your eyes off the CCP.

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  1. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Several things can be true at once and I think many of them are when it comes to Ukraine. I don’t think our support for Ukraine is primarily because it is sound US policy to get involved in Ukraine. I think primarily we are in Ukraine because the Russian collusion narrative created Putin as a boogey man for the Left in the US. A secondary reason we are in Ukraine is because it has apparently been a “piggy bank”/ playground for western elites for a while. This makes Ukraine a virtue signaling opportunity for the international and America Left.

    This doesn’t mean that I don’t think there are legitimate US interests in stopping Russian aggression and in preventing Putin from gobbling up Ukraine, or at least making sure it is a bone that sticks in his/ Russia’s throat. It does mean that we aren’t operating from a well thought out foreign policy objective and with a sound strategic plan and goal for Ukraine. I think we, like so many other issues, are acting on an emotional position.

    Finally the left doesn’t do second order thinking well. It is totally conceivable to me that they don’t understand that all of this equipment needs to be replenished, and how long that will take. A word of caution though I think the estimates of how long it will take may be a little inaccurate. I suspect if we had a competent administration and a sober plan we could probably get that estimate down.

    It is not why I want us to support Ukraine, but one side benefit is that it is teaching us a lot about our own military readiness. It isn’t always a good picture. I hope we learn some lessons from it.

    I agree that is a good side benefit if we learn lessons and take them to heart.  In many ways I am not against what we are doing in Ukraine.  I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly.  I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now.  I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    Two points on that.  I think it takes longer because we are downgrading the Abrams to the export version.  Also we are trying to make sure the Ukrainians are trained on how to use them.  Finally the US doesn’t really want to do this so like every other thing Biden has done in this war we are slow walking it. 

    As for the logistics tail of the Abrams.   American philosophy of war is that very capable highly survivable platforms are the key for success.   We are extremely good at logistics and have no concerns about using that capability to solve problems.  It makes sense because losing aircraft or tanks doesn’t bother American citizens losing lives does.   Also I think it is a better strategy in the long run.  It takes 18 years to replace a US soldier it takes 18 weeks to build a new M1.  America is wealthy enough to be able to afford technology to solve problems and good enough at logistics to be able to keep complex systems fighting in the field.   The way to beat the US military is to inflict enough human losses that it saps the political will for the fight. 

    • #61
  2. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly.  I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now.  I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    This.

    • #62
  3. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    I agree that is a good side benefit if we learn lessons and take them to heart.  In many ways I am not against what we are doing in Ukraine.  I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly.  I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now.  I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    Two points on that.  I think it takes longer because we are downgrading the Abrams to the export version.  Also we are trying to make sure the Ukrainians are trained on how to use them.  Finally the US doesn’t really want to do this so like every other thing Biden has done in this war we are slow walking it. 

    As for the logistics tail of the Abrams.   American philosophy of war is that very capable highly survivable platforms are the key for success.   We are extremely good at logistics and have no concerns about using that capability to solve problems.  It makes sense because losing aircraft or tanks doesn’t bother American citizens losing lives does.   Also I think it is a better strategy in the long run.  It takes 18 years to replace a US soldier it takes 18 weeks to build a new M1.  America is wealthy enough to be able to afford technology to solve problems and good enough at logistics to be able to keep complex systems fighting in the field.   The way to beat the US military is to inflict enough human losses that it saps the political will for the fight. 

    Thanks for the comments.  I was hoping somebody who knew more about American military matters than I do would comment, and someone did!  If you aren’t so concerned about fragile, overly-complicated logistics for the Abrams tanks, then maybe I don’t need to be, either. 

    I suppose there are multiple reasons that Poland is trying to become less reliant on American military technology, so is making a major investment in tanks from South Korea, and in in-house facilities to maintain and even do part of the manufacturing of those tanks.  I hope that turns out well, and it kind of gives the lie to those who say the war is driven by American munitions makers. At least it isn’t driven by the makers of Abrams tanks. 

    • #63
  4. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    I agree that is a good side benefit if we learn lessons and take them to heart. In many ways I am not against what we are doing in Ukraine. I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly. I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now. I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    Two points on that. I think it takes longer because we are downgrading the Abrams to the export version. Also we are trying to make sure the Ukrainians are trained on how to use them. Finally the US doesn’t really want to do this so like every other thing Biden has done in this war we are slow walking it.

    As for the logistics tail of the Abrams. American philosophy of war is that very capable highly survivable platforms are the key for success. We are extremely good at logistics and have no concerns about using that capability to solve problems. It makes sense because losing aircraft or tanks doesn’t bother American citizens losing lives does. Also I think it is a better strategy in the long run. It takes 18 years to replace a US soldier it takes 18 weeks to build a new M1. America is wealthy enough to be able to afford technology to solve problems and good enough at logistics to be able to keep complex systems fighting in the field. The way to beat the US military is to inflict enough human losses that it saps the political will for the fight.

    Thanks for the comments. I was hoping somebody who knew more about American military matters than I do would comment, and someone did! If you aren’t so concerned about fragile, overly-complicated logistics for the Abrams tanks, then maybe I don’t need to be, either.

    Actually to be clear on two points.  First I have no direct knowledge of the American military I am just a student of history and a lover of war games.  Second I am concerned about the overly complicated logistics for the Abrams in the context of Ukraine.  I just understand the complicate logistics of the Abrams within the framework of the American Military and why I don’t worry about it when we deploy them.  Ukraine will have to learn how to keep the Abrams fighting.  The real challenge is keeping it in fuel.  

    I suppose there are multiple reasons that Poland is trying to become less reliant on American military technology, so is making a major investment in tanks from South Korea, and in in-house facilities to maintain and even do part of the manufacturing of those tanks. I hope that turns out well, and it kind of gives the lie to those who say the war is driven by American munitions makers. At least it isn’t driven by the makers of Abrams tanks.

    True.  I think the major attraction for both Poland and South Korea is the licensing deal.  The US licenses M1s as well but they are expensive to manufacture.  South Korea is happy to license to Poland because it may open up the European market to their platforms.  Maybe a really wise move on South Korea’s part since a lot of European countries maybe looking into rearmament in the near future.

    • #64
  5. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Several things can be true at once and I think many of them are when it comes to Ukraine. I don’t think our support for Ukraine is primarily because it is sound US policy to get involved in Ukraine. I think primarily we are in Ukraine because the Russian collusion narrative created Putin as a boogey man for the Left in the US. A secondary reason we are in Ukraine is because it has apparently been a “piggy bank”/ playground for western elites for a while. This makes Ukraine a virtue signaling opportunity for the international and America Left.

    This doesn’t mean that I don’t think there are legitimate US interests in stopping Russian aggression and in preventing Putin from gobbling up Ukraine, or at least making sure it is a bone that sticks in his/ Russia’s throat. It does mean that we aren’t operating from a well thought out foreign policy objective and with a sound strategic plan and goal for Ukraine. I think we, like so many other issues, are acting on an emotional position.

    Finally the left doesn’t do second order thinking well. It is totally conceivable to me that they don’t understand that all of this equipment needs to be replenished, and how long that will take. A word of caution though I think the estimates of how long it will take may be a little inaccurate. I suspect if we had a competent administration and a sober plan we could probably get that estimate down.

    It is not why I want us to support Ukraine, but one side benefit is that it is teaching us a lot about our own military readiness. It isn’t always a good picture. I hope we learn some lessons from it.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    We don’t have enough airlift and sealift. Some things require special transportation.

    • #65
  6. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    I agree that is a good side benefit if we learn lessons and take them to heart. In many ways I am not against what we are doing in Ukraine. I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly. I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now. I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    Two points on that. I think it takes longer because we are downgrading the Abrams to the export version. Also we are trying to make sure the Ukrainians are trained on how to use them. Finally the US doesn’t really want to do this so like every other thing Biden has done in this war we are slow walking it.

    As for the logistics tail of the Abrams. American philosophy of war is that very capable highly survivable platforms are the key for success. We are extremely good at logistics and have no concerns about using that capability to solve problems. It makes sense because losing aircraft or tanks doesn’t bother American citizens losing lives does. Also I think it is a better strategy in the long run. It takes 18 years to replace a US soldier it takes 18 weeks to build a new M1. America is wealthy enough to be able to afford technology to solve problems and good enough at logistics to be able to keep complex systems fighting in the field. The way to beat the US military is to inflict enough human losses that it saps the political will for the fight.

    Thanks for the comments. I was hoping somebody who knew more about American military matters than I do would comment, and someone did! If you aren’t so concerned about fragile, overly-complicated logistics for the Abrams tanks, then maybe I don’t need to be, either.

    I suppose there are multiple reasons that Poland is trying to become less reliant on American military technology, so is making a major investment in tanks from South Korea, and in in-house facilities to maintain and even do part of the manufacturing of those tanks. I hope that turns out well, and it kind of gives the lie to those who say the war is driven by American munitions makers. At least it isn’t driven by the makers of Abrams tanks.

    Poland is also buying M1s.

    • #66
  7. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Several things can be true at once and I think many of them are when it comes to Ukraine. I don’t think our support for Ukraine is primarily because it is sound US policy to get involved in Ukraine. I think primarily we are in Ukraine because the Russian collusion narrative created Putin as a boogey man for the Left in the US. A secondary reason we are in Ukraine is because it has apparently been a “piggy bank”/ playground for western elites for a while. This makes Ukraine a virtue signaling opportunity for the international and America Left.

    This doesn’t mean that I don’t think there are legitimate US interests in stopping Russian aggression and in preventing Putin from gobbling up Ukraine, or at least making sure it is a bone that sticks in his/ Russia’s throat. It does mean that we aren’t operating from a well thought out foreign policy objective and with a sound strategic plan and goal for Ukraine. I think we, like so many other issues, are acting on an emotional position.

    Finally the left doesn’t do second order thinking well. It is totally conceivable to me that they don’t understand that all of this equipment needs to be replenished, and how long that will take. A word of caution though I think the estimates of how long it will take may be a little inaccurate. I suspect if we had a competent administration and a sober plan we could probably get that estimate down.

    It is not why I want us to support Ukraine, but one side benefit is that it is teaching us a lot about our own military readiness. It isn’t always a good picture. I hope we learn some lessons from it.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    We don’t have enough airlift and sealift. Some things require special transportation.

    Yes, we need more sealift. But we also preposition quantities of combat equipment sets overseas. Plus parts and other supplies. Some sets are even afloat.

    Ideally we would have more heavy airlift but in the opening phase of a conflict, we need, and rely on, civilian aircraft to deploy soldiers.

     

    • #67
  8. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    I agree that is a good side benefit if we learn lessons and take them to heart. In many ways I am not against what we are doing in Ukraine. I think we were going to face a threat to a NATO country if Russia had crushed Ukraine quickly. I am relieved that that possibility seems less likely now. I just have zero confidence in our existing leaderships ability to either learn the important lessons from this conflict or manage things appropriately to keep from a major catastrophic escalation.

    It’s not only the inventory of munitions that I wonder about. The fact that sending Abrams tanks to Ukraine requires such an elaborate infrastructure to go with them, and that it takes so long, makes me wonder.

    Two points on that. I think it takes longer because we are downgrading the Abrams to the export version. Also we are trying to make sure the Ukrainians are trained on how to use them. Finally the US doesn’t really want to do this so like every other thing Biden has done in this war we are slow walking it.

    As for the logistics tail of the Abrams. American philosophy of war is that very capable highly survivable platforms are the key for success. We are extremely good at logistics and have no concerns about using that capability to solve problems. It makes sense because losing aircraft or tanks doesn’t bother American citizens losing lives does. Also I think it is a better strategy in the long run. It takes 18 years to replace a US soldier it takes 18 weeks to build a new M1. America is wealthy enough to be able to afford technology to solve problems and good enough at logistics to be able to keep complex systems fighting in the field. The way to beat the US military is to inflict enough human losses that it saps the political will for the fight.

    Thanks for the comments. I was hoping somebody who knew more about American military matters than I do would comment, and someone did! If you aren’t so concerned about fragile, overly-complicated logistics for the Abrams tanks, then maybe I don’t need to be, either.

    I suppose there are multiple reasons that Poland is trying to become less reliant on American military technology, so is making a major investment in tanks from South Korea, and in in-house facilities to maintain and even do part of the manufacturing of those tanks. I hope that turns out well, and it kind of gives the lie to those who say the war is driven by American munitions makers. At least it isn’t driven by the makers of Abrams tanks.

    Poland is also buying M1s.

    True.  I think the plan is to use them as a reserve force and to have them guard some high value approaches.  The bulk of Poland’s tanks will be a locally produced derivative of the South Korean tank.

    • #68
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