EV Schadenfreude

 

If you would rather spend your vacation hunting for charging stations, calling customer support to try to get them to reset the charging stations, hunting for places to spend the night when your Ford Lightning runs of out charge and has to be towed, or trying to figure out why a fast charger is only giving you a trickle charge, than attending a car show in Colorado, an electric vehicle is for you!

.

Published in Environment
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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill (View Comment):

    The sad thing is, hybrid technology that combines gasoline with “free energy” techniques has proven to be very beneficial.

    Take my Toyota Prius.

    It was purchased in 2014, and was already 5 years old.

    Had we not just been establishing our credit after a medical bankruptcy, we would most likely have been approved for a slightly more expensive SUV by Ford, which operates along the same lines as the Prius. (Or so I have been told.)

    A Toyota Corolla would have gotten some 34 mpg. But the Prius brings its owner to the 43.3 mpg rating – which is a significant change overall.

    How does the Prius operate to bring about such savings? It uses traditional starting method of gasoline-operated engine. But once driving down the road, it converts the movement of all related parts into energy. I think IIRC even the rotation of the tires ends up converted into energy.

    So it is not really “free energy” out of thin air but energy we normally dismiss as not being important.

    Oh but the costs of the batteries!

    Yes we heard that from some doom and gloom types. But until 2019 or so, the only repair items facing us were the usual oil changes, plus cost of new tires and brake pads. (If you live in hill country with windy twisty roads, tires and brakes are almost yearly expenditures.)

    Then late in December of that year, the car wouldn’t start. Even the jump assistance provided by Triple A didn’t help.

    Luckily it was the secondary battery. So it cost about $ 450 to replace. (With the main battery, it might have been 2,200 or so.)

    We actually have had more problems with the hatchback latches to get to the trunk than with the batteries.

    Over the last few years, that has proven to be a money pit, far more expensive than it should be. (Maybe another 400 bucks?) And yet once again, the latch is getting tricky.

     

    My brother has had the same problem with the latches on his Prius.

    The main thing to remember about a hybrid is that even the “main” battery is far smaller, and far less expensive, than the batteries for an electric-only vehicle.  (Which also means less heavy metal mining by child- and slave-labor, less to dispose of later, less danger in collisions, and so much more.)

    Also a hybrid, at least if set up properly, can still be driven at lower speed just from gasoline power even if the “main” battery fails.

    If the “main” battery for an electric-only fails, you’re not going anywhere.

    • #31
  2. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    Talking like that ain’t gonna get you elected; especially in California.

    • #32
  3. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    We must have the dumbest generations of Americans voting than ever before in America if they cannot absorb an understanding that today’s government actions are leading us to economic disaster. We are cutting off our ability to supply the required energy to the production and delivery infrastructure for America. It comes gradually and then suddenly, like death.

    Our current president did his part with his ban on drilling.

    • #33
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    We must have the dumbest generations of Americans voting than ever before in America if they cannot absorb an understanding that today’s government actions are leading us to economic disaster. We are cutting off our ability to supply the required energy to the production and delivery infrastructure for America. It comes gradually and then suddenly, like death.

    It’s like I’ve described before/elsewhere, a lot of people seem to think that once someone like a Trump gets things humming, they can elect some idiot promising them more freebies and feeling good about themselves etc, and somehow nothing will get worse, only better.

    • #34
  5. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    I was also surprised how many of the charging stations that EV owners encountered worked poorly or not at all. Some had been broken for months. Others delivered a trickle charge when they were expecting a super charge. Some oscillated between a fast charge and a trickle for reasons unclear. I’m curious if anyone knows why it is so difficult to keep the chargers operating properly?

    There are various issues, but one thing I read is that many of the chargers don’t have a full-capacity electrical supply, often because that would overstrain the grid at their location. So they have a local battery that charges more slowly and can then deliver a fast charge to a connected vehicle. Maybe just ONCE. So if you’re the second customer at that charger, you get a much slower charge.

    Of course all the charging and discharging of another battery, with the additional losses, further lowers the overall efficiency of the EV scheme. Combined with that it’s likely coming from a fossil fuel power plant to start with.

     

    Ramirez is gifted a saying much with one picture.

    • #35
  6. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    The good thing was that when automobiles started becoming somewhat common, California and wannabe Californias didn’t set a deadline for outlawing the sale of horses and wagons.

    The early gasoline automobiles were a lot less reliable than a horse, and remained so for many years. They were playthings for wealthy people enamored with the new technology and willing to put up with the limitations of these new technology vehicles. One limitation was the unavailability of gasoline anywhere and everywhere hay was available.

    But gasoline was available everywhere – you filled a can and tied it to the back bumper. Gasoline and diesel are easily transportable while the electrical charging infrastructure is not.

    Gasoline wasn’t available everywhere in the beginning. It’s took years for it to become even slightly common.

    It was sold in hardware stores before demand drove the creation of dedicated fueling stations. So, while high-volume supplies took time to develop, it was indeed commonly available.

    EV’s are a cluster-[expletive] of epic proportions, driven by scientific ignorance, ignorance aided and abetted by politics.

    Yes, when I was growing up out in the sticks, every little country crossroads store had a gas pump.

    • #36
  7. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    Phil Turmel (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    The good thing was that when automobiles started becoming somewhat common, California and wannabe Californias didn’t set a deadline for outlawing the sale of horses and wagons.

    The early gasoline automobiles were a lot less reliable than a horse, and remained so for many years. They were playthings for wealthy people enamored with the new technology and willing to put up with the limitations of these new technology vehicles. One limitation was the unavailability of gasoline anywhere and everywhere hay was available.

    But gasoline was available everywhere – you filled a can and tied it to the back bumper. Gasoline and diesel are easily transportable while the electrical charging infrastructure is not.

    Gasoline wasn’t available everywhere in the beginning. It’s took years for it to become even slightly common.

    It was sold in hardware stores before demand drove the creation of dedicated fueling stations. So, while high-volume supplies took time to develop, it was indeed commonly available.

    EV’s are a cluster-[expletive] of epic proportions, driven by scientific ignorance, ignorance aided and abetted by politics.

    Here’s a brief history of the early sale of gasoline: http://www.petroleumhistory.org/OilHistory/pages/gasoline/stations.html

    Information like this is why I love Ricochet.

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    I was also surprised how many of the charging stations that EV owners encountered worked poorly or not at all. Some had been broken for months. Others delivered a trickle charge when they were expecting a super charge. Some oscillated between a fast charge and a trickle for reasons unclear. I’m curious if anyone knows why it is so difficult to keep the chargers operating properly?

    There are various issues, but one thing I read is that many of the chargers don’t have a full-capacity electrical supply, often because that would overstrain the grid at their location. So they have a local battery that charges more slowly and can then deliver a fast charge to a connected vehicle. Maybe just ONCE. So if you’re the second customer at that charger, you get a much slower charge.

    Of course all the charging and discharging of another battery, with the additional losses, further lowers the overall efficiency of the EV scheme. Combined with that it’s likely coming from a fossil fuel power plant to start with.

    Ramirez is gifted a saying much with one picture.

    I’ve said for years/decades that electric cars just change the location of the exhaust pipe.

    And in terms of the toxic heavy metals etc, the location of where (most of) the pollution takes place.

     

    • #38
  9. Steve Fast Member
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    • #39
  10. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    [snip]

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    Interesting how we have to bumble into the rocket equation to discuss EV range.   That’s a powerful indicator of economic feasibility right there.  

    • #40
  11. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    [snip]

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    Interesting how we have to bumble into the rocket equation to discuss EV range. That’s a powerful indicator of economic feasibility right there.

    For a conventional electric car to have increased range, it requires more battery structure which is heavy and expensive and toxic – heavy metals to be mined, then disposed of later… – while an internal combustion engine vehicle just needs a larger fuel tank.

    • #41
  12. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    This demands a meme!

    • #42
  13. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    I do very much like the hybrid idea.  My wife has a hybrid van and that thing barely sips gas.  When I drive on fambly trips, I like to see how high I can get the average mileage

    I like the recent Ford Maverick hybrid (although I have heard that they are in fact cheaply made).  Good idea; better execution may yet happen.

    Still, I will never displace my throbbing love affair with the late 1960s V-8.

    • #43
  14. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    And this is why I just bought a brand new gas-powered car, which should last me a long time.  I traded in a 14-year old car for the new one.

    Oh, and a big reason none of the new electric-charge infrastructure works well?  RoHS (Regulation of Hazardous Substances), a law passed by the EU many years ago, eliminating lead from solder.  Any device requiring a circuit-board is now much more fragile, with a shorter working life.  My bet is those charging stations, outside in all weathers, deteriorate pretty quickly.  And there is little, if any, cure for the problem.

    • #44
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    This demands a meme!

    Maybe, but the one in #19 already covers it pretty well.

     

    • #45
  16. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    BDB (View Comment):

    I do very much like the hybrid idea. My wife has a hybrid van and that thing barely sips gas. When I drive on fambly trips, I like to see how high I can get the average mileage

    I like the recent Ford Maverick hybrid (although I have heard that they are in fact cheaply made). Good idea; better execution may yet happen.

    Still, I will never displace my throbbing love affair with the late 1960s V-8.

    The 60s V-8 is the perfect car to end it all in a closed garage.  An EV would not do the job.

    • #46
  17. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Have all the auto and truck manufacturing and the oil companies CEO positions been taken over by the finance and accounting types so that none actually has an understanding of the operations under discussion here?

    Elon Musk maybe does. I seem to remember he expressed some concerns about Biden’s efforts to stop all functions dependent on fossil fuels and their production as well.

    • #47
  18. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

     

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

     

    I’m sure the EV fans and lobby thought of all this when they were writing the new edicts.

    • #48
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Have all the auto and truck manufacturing and the oil companies CEO positions been taken over by the finance and accounting types so that none actually has an understanding of the operations under discussion here?

    Elon Musk maybe does. I seem to remember he expressed some concerns about Biden’s efforts to stop all functions dependent on fossil fuels and their production as well.

    Musk probably realizes that Teslas get to the dealerships via diesel-powered trucks.

    Even if their buyers don’t.

    • #49
  20. Steve Fast Member
    Steve Fast
    @SteveFast

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Have all the auto and truck manufacturing and the oil companies CEO positions been taken over by the finance and accounting types so that none actually has an understanding of the operations under discussion here?

    Elon Musk maybe does. I seem to remember he expressed some concerns about Biden’s efforts to stop all functions dependent on fossil fuels and their production as well.

    Musk has bachelor’s degrees in physics and economics. He also worked on a farm and in a lumber mill for a year after he immigrated to Canada. None of that is your typical accountant or finance background.

    • #50
  21. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Elon Musk and Tesla get this. They built a network of charging stations so that when you plan a route, it builds in the stops for charging into the trip and the time required at each stop. Where the other manufacturers are falling short is on relying on private charging stations to pop up while the number of EVs are still low. I remember a dramatized interview with Thomas Edison that inventing the light bulb also meant having to deliver electricity and developing that infrastructure as well. We are still in early days of EV infrastructure and even more so for Hydrogen fuel cells. It’s not dissimilar to when automobiles first appeared and you had to be a mechanic to fix it yourself and if traveling a long way, took your own gasoline as well.

    EVs are fine city vehicles, but taking them on a long trip isn’t a great idea right now. It might be in 5-10 years when charging stations become ubiquitous. Heck, an enterprising company might install rapid charges at every Circle K, or 7-11 and over time the gas pumps might go the way of the unleaded pumps.

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    And you can be certain of how much gas you have in your jerry cans, and you can transfer it yourself, along the side of the road, anywhere,  But you have to rely on on-board computers to tell you how much charge you have, and you can’t pack more batteries like you can with jerry cans.

    • #51
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    BDB (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Michael G. Gallagher (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    [snip]

    Dear @ Debroussa,

    Your comments about electric cars are right on the money. Modern EVs are still a relatively new technology. After all, it’s only been 13 years since the first Tesla EV rolled off the assembly. That means modern EVS are going to be subject to all the glitches that accompany the introduction of new technology. Carl Benz put the very first car, his Patent Motor Car, No 1, on the road in 1886, but it wasn’t until 1908 that the first truly practical car, Ford’s Model hit the road and it wasn’t until the late 1920s that America could be called a nation on wheels. Drivers searching for the first gas pumps probably had the same anxieties that today’s EV owners have while looking for a charging station.

    Except that, even then, you could put more gasoline in containers on the car. Can’t do that with charging.

    Well. Technically you can carry extra batteries.

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    Interesting how we have to bumble into the rocket equation to discuss EV range. That’s a powerful indicator of economic feasibility right there.

    Made me do a spit take

    • #52
  23. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    I enjoyed the all-electric car I owned for a few years. I then lived in a compact urban area, worked in one location with a predictable home to work commute, and was wealthy enough to own a house in which I could install a charger and to own another car for trips. The electric car was great for commuting and errands. 

    A problem leading to the idiotic electric car mandates is that most of the lawmakers and bureaucrats creating those mandates live and work in urban areas where things are relatively close together and are wealthy, so buying access to what they want is relatively easy. When they travel, they fly point-to-point. It is another set of topics on which lawmakers and rule-making bureaucrats live lives completely different from many people, and those lawmakers and rule-making bureaucrats forget that they are not living the same as many people do. Even within states, most of the California and New York lawmakers and rule makers live and work in small parts of those states, and forget that both states have large rural areas. And then the lawmakers and rule makers make laws and rules that might be reasonable for their wealthy urban lives, but don’t make sense for large numbers of the people to whom they apply those laws and rules. 

    • #53
  24. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    I enjoyed the all-electric car I owned for a few years. I then lived in a compact urban area, worked in one location with a predictable home to work commute, and was wealthy enough to own a house in which I could install a charger and to own another car for trips. The electric car was great for commuting and errands.

    A problem leading to the idiotic electric car mandates is that most of the lawmakers and bureaucrats creating those mandates live and work in urban areas where things are relatively close together and are wealthy, so buying access to what they want is relatively easy. When they travel, they fly point-to-point. It is another set of topics on which lawmakers and rule-making bureaucrats live lives completely different from many people, and those lawmakers and rule-making bureaucrats forget that they are not living the same as many people do. Even within states, most of the California and New York lawmakers and rule makers live and work in small parts of those states, and forget that both states have large rural areas. And then the lawmakers and rule makers make laws and rules that might be reasonable for their wealthy urban lives, but don’t make sense for large numbers of the people to whom they apply those laws and rules.

    Not just on the electric car mandate, but on a number of other issues too, I believe farmers and ranchers in California hold that the legislature has positively no clue what life is like outside the city.  California is a huge agricultural state but its lawmakers seem to have little regard for that industry.

    • #54
  25. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    You are assuming that you plan to replace the battery pack.  I am thinking more along the line of a fast-charging pack that gives you ~20 miles of range once you plug it in.  Sort of like a 1g can of gas.

    • #55
  26. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    You are assuming that you plan to replace the battery pack. I am thinking more along the line of a fast-charging pack that gives you ~20 miles of range once you plug it in. Sort of like a 1g can of gas.

    Except an extra battery has to be an extra battery, with all the toxic chemicals and such.  And there are losses involved both with charging the battery, and getting the charge back out.  And the mass/weight – and cost – of all that material is considerable.

    All that gasoline needs is a container.

    • #56
  27. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    You are assuming that you plan to replace the battery pack. I am thinking more along the line of a fast-charging pack that gives you ~20 miles of range once you plug it in. Sort of like a 1g can of gas.

    The one gallon of gasoline =  approximately $3.00 today, the new empty  2 gallon gasoline container = approximately $20.00-25.00 on the high end at the nearest fueling facility.

    How much for the spare battery pack …. and did you remember to keep it charged for your next emergency.

    Which is to say, instead of finding out every unintended weird consequence caused by taking this hard turn into a new technology necessitated by a fake existential threat from “climate change” …. why not simply keep improving the existing internal combustion engine technologies to lower emissions.

     

    • #57
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    You are assuming that you plan to replace the battery pack. I am thinking more along the line of a fast-charging pack that gives you ~20 miles of range once you plug it in. Sort of like a 1g can of gas.

    The one gallon of gasoline = approximately $3.00 today, the new empty 2 gallon gasoline container = approximately $20.00-25.00 on the high end at the nearest fueling facility.

    Yeah, if you buy your “gas can” at a gas station, that might be the dictionary definition of “sucker.”

    Always smarter and usually much cheaper to get one at Walmart or the like, before you desperately need it.

     

    How much for the spare battery pack …. and did you remember to keep it charged for your next emergency.

    Which is to say, instead of finding out every unintended weird consequence caused by taking this hard turn into a new technology necessitated by a fake existential threat from “climate change” …. why not simply keep improving the existing internal combustion engine technologies to lower emissions.

    Especially with diesel exhaust, which modern technology has already made so clean that you could basically breathe right off the pipe without damage.

    • #58
  29. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    By the way — buy your gas at Tractor Supply or Harbor Freight, if you want one without all the retardation installed.

    • #59
  30. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Steve Fast (View Comment):

    You would need a trailer to carry it. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 – 1377 lbs., depending on the model. A Ford Lightning’s battery weighs 1800 lbs. And if you’re pulling a trailer your range goes way down, so you would definitely need a spare battery. And you would need a forklift to handle the old and the new batteries when you changed them out on the side of the road. Maybe another trailer to pull the forklift. And maybe another spare battery since you’re now pulling two trailers. And would your electric forklift (surely you wouldn’t use a forklift power by icky fossil fuels) also have a spare battery along?

    You are assuming that you plan to replace the battery pack. I am thinking more along the line of a fast-charging pack that gives you ~20 miles of range once you plug it in. Sort of like a 1g can of gas.

    HEre is the thing:

    No such battery exists. 

    The best way to carry energy around is gas. 

    Oh, sorry, there is another way to have your EV run for ages, but no one wants to put RTUs in their cars. I mean, I would, but RTUs are scary.

    Battery technology is simply not ever going to be as good as ICE. Never. I am not being a pessimist here: batteries are up against physics. What would be required is a completely new battery technology. We will have fusion before then. 

    • #60
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