Fidelity to the Constitution

 

There has been a Twitter dust up between Dan McLaughlin of National Review and Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. Mona Charen decided to weigh in with this:

This strikes to the heart of one of the deepest schisms on the right. Most on the right (excepting perhaps Ms. Charen) look at the direction that the left is taking and see little adherence to the Constitutional order. Look at President Biden’s recent statement on Thanksgiving about how it’s madness that we still allow the sale of semi-automatic firearms. To the left, the Constitution is a barrier to what they want to accomplish, which they see as a progressive utopia.

But to some on the right, especially those who see Donald Trump as the greatest threat to (insert beloved institution here), he is a greater threat than the left’s slow wearing away of our system. I can understand that point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. The problem that we, the right and especially the GOP has, is that this isn’t a circular firing squad like normal, it’s not even cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face, it’s a deeper and fundamental problem that may not have a resolution. People may have disliked Mitt Romney and they didn’t vote for him, and…he lost, but had he won, would a sizable portion of the right have abandoned conservatism and promoted and voted for Barack Obama?  The idea that Donald Trump is so much worse than any other President that has ever held the office is hard to imagine, even as someone who voted for McMullin in ’16.  For those that chose that part, who never accepted Trump and continued to fight him, can there be a reconciliation?  Do they even want one?

That problem has nothing to do with Donald Trump, and everything to do with what goals the conservative movement has, or is trying to achieve. The political right, and to a lesser extent the GOP is really an amalgam of various movements that align themselves into a coalition politically. Individuals may align to various levels with one or more of these groupings, but don’t have to be more than one. Some have opposing aims and goals and the conflict causes tension in the GOP and, to a lesser extent in the right itself. What are these groupings?  My list, and it’s always changing is as follows:

Social Conservatives – this contains two large and somewhat overlapping groups the Pro-Life and Trad-marriage groups. There is often an odd dichotomy between authoritarian tendencies and great compassion at an individual level.

Fiscal Conservatives – often can care less about social issues and willing to sacrifice defense to try and balance the budget, some ties to the Rockefeller Republicans of yesteryear.

Nation Defense Conservatives – see the primary role of the government as projecting strength so it doesn’t have to be used. Willing to spend profligately on defense, but usually not on anything else.

Neoconservatives – left the Democratic party when they became pacifists after Viet Nam. Often in conflict with the social and fiscal Conservatives. Differ from the National Defense group in that they see a moral need to use US might to bring freedom to the oppressed.

Paleoconservatives – I tend to use this to define isolationist, but it is more complex. They tend to want smaller government, protectionism in trade, and a strong military that isn’t used much. Often hold strong social conservative views as well.

Libertarians (small l, but it’s the start of a paragraph) – small government, leave people alone, don’t get involved in wars, don’t have the government involved in people’s lives (often very much at odds with Social Conservatives)

Chamber of Commerce Conservatives

Cocktail Conservatives

Judicial Conservatives

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  1. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Did you have any sense of the level of corruption within the intelligence agencies in 2016? What did you know about McMullin that would impel you to support him?

    In a swer to your first question, no, I did not. Perhaps I was blinded by my Tom Clancy View of the IC, but I truly didn’t see just how corrupt they had become. I assumed such from the State Department, but not the IC. I actually think that the exposure of their corruption is one of the better things that the Trump Administration did.

    Your second question is more complex. I disliked Trump for three basic reasons. First, I wasn’t convinced that he was a conservative ideologically and would blow in the wind. He isn’t and he did to some extent (bump stocks anyone) and especially wasn’t convinced that he was really Pro-Life, but was mouthing the words. On the issue of Life, Trump turned out to be the best and most Pro-Life President since Roe. Once again, I was wrong and happily so, but in 16 I greatly feared that he wasn’t any different from Clinton.

    The second aspect of Trump that didn’t like was his isolationism. I still don’t like the resurgence of that on the right and in the GOP. I have strong neoconservative tendencies as it relates to freedom for the world, and that requires the US to both enforce the Pax Ameeicana and to actively promote freedom around the world. To pull back from the world is a big mistake because it allows our competitors to stake their claim to areas that we scan and should influence. As an example China is becoming more invested in Africa and the US less so. This will be problematic for us over the next few decades. I’m not convinced completely by the idea of “fair trade” vs “free trade” but in 16 was much more on the free than fair side. Now, I feel differently and I credit Trump with changing my mind on that issue.

    The third issue I had with Trump was his lack of personal character. I actually love his combative style and his ability to mock the media is epic and entertaining. It’s his best quality IMO. What I was more concerned with were the affairs, the pay offs, the gold toilets that spoke of crass wealth as opposed to sophistication. It wasn’t mean tweets, I liked those, though his tendency to lash out at anyone and everyone was and is a problem. What he did against Cruz in the primary was terrible. To implicate that his Dad was associated with Oswald was wrong, flat out. It’s an example of Trump at his worst and part of the price that one has to pay to support him. It’s worth it to not get a Clinton or a Biden.

    Hope that helps a bit.

    Well, it does. I had some doubts, called myself a Trump skeptic, initially. I voted for Trump in 2016 mainly because he was not Hillary and I had a lot of questions. The Deep State showed its face quickly and as a former SES bureaucrat I had a sense of how well Obama had seeded the bureaucracy at the top, especially intel and law enforcement, so I got on the Trump train early. And McMullin not having any revealed background was a show-stopper anyway.

    EDIT: @dbroussa BTW, I think the above and the relationship with social and public media of these agencies, DNC, and associates like Lawfare many have been decisive in the 2020 election.

    • #121
  2. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    I’m not advocating for us to dissolve the EC just because we don’t need to have an intermediary layer from the ignorant voters and electing the chief executive. It serves other purposes, like balancing the small and large states. 

    Who ever said the Electoral College was insulation from stupidity?  AFAIK, the entire purpose is to bring the States into the mix by Balkanizing a raw Democracy.

    • #122
  3. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    BDB (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    I’m not advocating for us to dissolve the EC just because we don’t need to have an intermediary layer from the ignorant voters and electing the chief executive. It serves other purposes, like balancing the small and large states.

    Who ever said the Electoral College was insulation from stupidity? AFAIK, the entire purpose is to bring the States into the mix by Balkanizing a raw Democracy.

    I thought we referred to that as ‘federalism’. We actually could benefit from a repeal of the 17th Amendment.

    • #123
  4. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    BDB (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    I’m not advocating for us to dissolve the EC just because we don’t need to have an intermediary layer from the ignorant voters and electing the chief executive. It serves other purposes, like balancing the small and large states.

    Who ever said the Electoral College was insulation from stupidity? AFAIK, the entire purpose is to bring the States into the mix by Balkanizing a raw Democracy.

    The founders also feared direct democracy and the mob rule it implied. It’s one reason why Senators were elected by the States and not the people. They feared that the average voter wasn’t always capable of making such weighty decisions.  Hamilton expressed this in Federalist 68 saying that the electors would “most likely to have the information and discernment”.  

    • #124
  5. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    I’m not advocating for us to dissolve the EC just because we don’t need to have an intermediary layer from the ignorant voters and electing the chief executive. It serves other purposes, like balancing the small and large states.

    Who ever said the Electoral College was insulation from stupidity? AFAIK, the entire purpose is to bring the States into the mix by Balkanizing a raw Democracy.

    I thought we referred to that as ‘federalism’. We actually could benefit from a repeal of the 17th Amendment.

    On this I agree completely. It might also begin to restore some sovereignty to the States and we might end up with a functioning republic of functional states as opposed to a functioning republic of dysfunctional states. 

    • #125
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Did you have any sense of the level of corruption within the intelligence agencies in 2016? What did you know about McMullin that would impel you to support him?

    In a swer to your first question, no, I did not. Perhaps I was blinded by my Tom Clancy View of the IC, but I truly didn’t see just how corrupt they had become. I assumed such from the State Department, but not the IC. I actually think that the exposure of their corruption is one of the better things that the Trump Administration did.

    Your second question is more complex. I disliked Trump for three basic reasons. First, I wasn’t convinced that he was a conservative ideologically and would blow in the wind. He isn’t and he did to some extent (bump stocks anyone) and especially wasn’t convinced that he was really Pro-Life, but was mouthing the words. On the issue of Life, Trump turned out to be the best and most Pro-Life President since Roe. Once again, I was wrong and happily so, but in 16 I greatly feared that he wasn’t any different from Clinton.

    The second aspect of Trump that didn’t like was his isolationism. I still don’t like the resurgence of that on the right and in the GOP. I have strong neoconservative tendencies as it relates to freedom for the world, and that requires the US to both enforce the Pax Ameeicana and to actively promote freedom around the world. To pull back from the world is a big mistake because it allows our competitors to stake their claim to areas that we scan and should influence. As an example China is becoming more invested in Africa and the US less so. This will be problematic for us over the next few decades. I’m not convinced completely by the idea of “fair trade” vs “free trade” but in 16 was much more on the free than fair side. Now, I feel differently and I credit Trump with changing my mind on that issue.

    The third issue I had with Trump was his lack of personal character. I actually love his combative style and his ability to mock the media is epic and entertaining. It’s his best quality IMO. What I was more concerned with were the affairs, the pay offs, the gold toilets that spoke of crass wealth as opposed to sophistication. It wasn’t mean tweets, I liked those, though his tendency to lash out at anyone and everyone was and is a problem. What he did against Cruz in the primary was terrible. To implicate that his Dad was associated with Oswald was wrong, flat out. It’s an example of Trump at his worst and part of the price that one has to pay to support him. It’s worth it to not get a Clinton or a Biden.

    Hope that helps a bit.

    Looks as if your answer to my second question is forget McMullin specifically but throw the election to the House. 

    The question of Neo-conservatism versus isolationism or nationalism seems to hinge on the judge of what is working or will work in the world as it is. It looks as if we are losing the fight against collectivism and are even threatened here.

    • #126
  7. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    The question of Neo-conservatism versus isolationism or nationalism seems to hinge on the judge of what is working or will work in the world as it is. It looks as if we are losing the fight against collectivism and are even threatened here.

    It’s also a question of priority. We can’t help anyone with “democracy” and “freedom” when we are in the midst of losing it ourselves. The world looks askance at us and rightfully demands “on whose authority???” We have no authority here. Our elections are a shambles, our morality is repugnant to a large number of other countries, and those who have common values with the majority of the globe are struggling to maintain our freedoms.

    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    • #127
  8. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Stina (View Comment):

    The question of Neo-conservatism versus isolationism or nationalism seems to hinge on the judge of what is working or will work in the world as it is. It looks as if we are losing the fight against collectivism and are even threatened here.

    It’s also a question of priority. We can’t help anyone with “democracy” and “freedom” when we are in the midst of losing it ourselves. The world looks askance at us and rightfully demands “on whose authority???” We have no authority here. Our elections are a shambles, our morality is repugnant to a large number of other countries, and those who have common values with the majority of the globe are struggling to maintain our freedoms.

    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    You have expressed some of the kinds of detailed thoughts that run through my mind when I think about why I’m not interested in interventions around the world.

    • #128
  9. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    You have expressed some of the kinds of detailed thoughts that run through my mind when I think about why I’m not interested in interventions around the world.

    Our government pushes the worst in Woke Educational Garbage on third-world countries, using the threat of withholding money to get them to, for example, shove transgender nonsense on their children.

    It’s evil.

    • #129
  10. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Stina (View Comment):
    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    Rush used to joke that we should export our woke nonsense to our enemies to weaken them. Of course part of that would mean we stop it from infecting us. 

    • #130
  11. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Today’s good news story: NPR Loses $20 Million In Corporate Sponsorships, Implements Hiring Freeze (thegatewaypundit.com)

    EDIT: Wrong thread, but maybe readers will get a laugh out of it.

    • #131
  12. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    You have expressed some of the kinds of detailed thoughts that run through my mind when I think about why I’m not interested in interventions around the world.

    Our government pushes the worst in Woke Educational Garbage on third-world countries, using the threat of withholding money to get them to, for example, shove transgender nonsense on their children.

    It’s evil.

    I remember Obama going to Uganda and forcing them to accept fake marriage or no funds seconds after it we became “enlightened”.  It will be sadly funny after our collapse and we’re forced to renounce fake marriage or no aid.

    • #132
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    You have expressed some of the kinds of detailed thoughts that run through my mind when I think about why I’m not interested in interventions around the world.

    Our government pushes the worst in Woke Educational Garbage on third-world countries, using the threat of withholding money to get them to, for example, shove transgender nonsense on their children.

    It’s evil.

    I remember Obama going to Uganda and forcing them to accept fake marriage or no funds seconds after it we became “enlightened”. It will be sadly funny after our collapse and we’re forced to renounce fake marriage or no aid.

    I have a feeling that many on the left would rather starve, or at least they would be willing to let a lot of other people starve.

    • #133
  14. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Looks as if your answer to my second question is forget McMullin specifically but throw the election to the House. 

    Yes, though, McMullin had a theoretical shot to win UT. To make it to the House requires you to be in the top 3 in EC votes, so you have to carry a state. It was a non-zero chance, but less than 1% IMO even then. The problem (really since the election of 1824) is that with two major parry candidates it’s rare for a third party to get EC votes. The last time a third part won a state was George Wallace in 1968 and before that it was Strom Thurmond in 1948. Before that 1924 with Bob Lafollette in WI. Andrew Jackson did us a favor after 1824, though it has also stiffled third parties. Since the modern homogenized election where regional differences matter less it’s even harder. Thus why a vote for Johnson or Jorgerson (neither of which I liked) was as meaningful as a write in for Condi Rice. McMullin had a non-zero chance.  I regret that vote now because he turned out to be a truly vile individual. 

    The question of Neo-conservatism versus isolationism or nationalism seems to hinge on the judge of what is working or will work in the world as it is. It looks as if we are losing the fight against collectivism and are even threatened here.

    It’s also about short versus long term actions. One can promote freedom.around the world and not send US troops to every hot spot. Personally I am more in favor of intervention than most, but do thunk that we need to serve legitimate interests of the US. I remember a friend of mine in the early 90s advocating for the US to send troops to Afghanistan to protect women from the Taliban. I didn’t think it was a good idea at the time, though I wonder how that might have changed things had we taken a more active role there. Unironically, this same friend was vehemently against US troops invading Afghanistan and later Iraq. 

    • #134
  15. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Stina (View Comment):
    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    Well, that ship sailed a long time ago. US entertainment is the king around the world (though China is heavily influencing that).  It was noted by an English man that the English form of digital insult (the first two fingers held up in a very shape but with the back of the hand towards the viewer) has been replaced mostly by the US “bird”.

    When US troops entered Iraq people along the roads gave them a “thumbs up” even though in the Arab world that is the equivalent to the bird. 

    Our cultural imperialism is only now being slowed by the desire to cater to the Chinese and thus you had Red Dawn with the risable North Korean invasion, or the erasure of black actors from movie posters so as not to offend the Chinese dislike of Blacks.

    • #135
  16. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    I don’t want us to police the world because we end up exporting revolting culture and it is best for the rest of the world to not be contaminated by us.

    Well, that ship sailed a long time ago. US entertainment is the king around the world (though China is heavily influencing that). It was noted by an English man that the English form of digital insult (the first two fingers held up in a very shape but with the back of the hand towards the viewer) has been replaced mostly by the US “bird”.

    When US troops entered Iraq people along the roads gave them a “thumbs up” even though in the Arab world that is the equivalent to the bird.

    Our cultural imperialism is only now being slowed by the desire to cater to the Chinese and thus you had Red Dawn with the risable North Korean invasion, or the erasure of black actors from movie posters so as not to offend the Chinese dislike of Blacks.

    The Chinese entertainment erasing lgbtq makes it so the only entertainment I’m comfortable with comes from those areas.

    See how that works?

    I think neocons are very much oblivious to the mess existing at home.

    • #136
  17. David C. Broussard Coolidge
    David C. Broussard
    @Dbroussa

    Stina (View Comment):
    I think neocons are very much oblivious to the mess existing at home.

    That is true to a point. It depends on what you mean by mess. Things are different today then they were 20 years ago when the question was how to stop Al Qaeda and should we invade Iraq. In a way that focus outward allowed the left to win a bunch domestically and make things worse. Balance is required in all things. Just as we cannot look only outwards, we cannot pull back from the world. 

    • #137
  18. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    David C. Broussard (View Comment):
    I remember a friend of mine in the early 90s advocating for the US to send troops to Afghanistan to protect women from the Taliban. I didn’t think it was a good idea at the time, though I wonder how that might have changed things had we taken a more active role there. Unironically, this same friend was vehemently against US troops invading Afghanistan and later Iraq. 

    For what it’s worth, my brother spent three years in Afghanistan as a US Diplomat over the last few years (he retired in ’21).

    He told me in a conversation we had on this topic that if he was a woman living in Afghanistan now, after two decades of hope for a decent future were crushed, he’d probably kill himself.

    • #138
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