Fidelity to the Constitution

 

There has been a Twitter dust up between Dan McLaughlin of National Review and Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. Mona Charen decided to weigh in with this:

This strikes to the heart of one of the deepest schisms on the right. Most on the right (excepting perhaps Ms. Charen) look at the direction that the left is taking and see little adherence to the Constitutional order. Look at President Biden’s recent statement on Thanksgiving about how it’s madness that we still allow the sale of semi-automatic firearms. To the left, the Constitution is a barrier to what they want to accomplish, which they see as a progressive utopia.

But to some on the right, especially those who see Donald Trump as the greatest threat to (insert beloved institution here), he is a greater threat than the left’s slow wearing away of our system. I can understand that point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. The problem that we, the right and especially the GOP has, is that this isn’t a circular firing squad like normal, it’s not even cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face, it’s a deeper and fundamental problem that may not have a resolution. People may have disliked Mitt Romney and they didn’t vote for him, and…he lost, but had he won, would a sizable portion of the right have abandoned conservatism and promoted and voted for Barack Obama?  The idea that Donald Trump is so much worse than any other President that has ever held the office is hard to imagine, even as someone who voted for McMullin in ’16.  For those that chose that part, who never accepted Trump and continued to fight him, can there be a reconciliation?  Do they even want one?

That problem has nothing to do with Donald Trump, and everything to do with what goals the conservative movement has, or is trying to achieve. The political right, and to a lesser extent the GOP is really an amalgam of various movements that align themselves into a coalition politically. Individuals may align to various levels with one or more of these groupings, but don’t have to be more than one. Some have opposing aims and goals and the conflict causes tension in the GOP and, to a lesser extent in the right itself. What are these groupings?  My list, and it’s always changing is as follows:

Social Conservatives – this contains two large and somewhat overlapping groups the Pro-Life and Trad-marriage groups. There is often an odd dichotomy between authoritarian tendencies and great compassion at an individual level.

Fiscal Conservatives – often can care less about social issues and willing to sacrifice defense to try and balance the budget, some ties to the Rockefeller Republicans of yesteryear.

Nation Defense Conservatives – see the primary role of the government as projecting strength so it doesn’t have to be used. Willing to spend profligately on defense, but usually not on anything else.

Neoconservatives – left the Democratic party when they became pacifists after Viet Nam. Often in conflict with the social and fiscal Conservatives. Differ from the National Defense group in that they see a moral need to use US might to bring freedom to the oppressed.

Paleoconservatives – I tend to use this to define isolationist, but it is more complex. They tend to want smaller government, protectionism in trade, and a strong military that isn’t used much. Often hold strong social conservative views as well.

Libertarians (small l, but it’s the start of a paragraph) – small government, leave people alone, don’t get involved in wars, don’t have the government involved in people’s lives (often very much at odds with Social Conservatives)

Chamber of Commerce Conservatives

Cocktail Conservatives

Judicial Conservatives

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  1. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    A mocktail conservative is…sober Milo?

    Leave Milo ALONE!

    Did you know that dogs no longer bark at Milo after he stopped being gay? A sign from God or he no longer uses as much fragrance.  Either way, pretty impressive.

    • #61
  2. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    A mocktail conservative is…sober Milo?

    Leave Milo ALONE!

    Did you know that dogs no longer bark at Milo after he stopped being gay? A sign from God or he no longer uses as much fragrance. Either way, pretty impressive.

    The Silence of the Hams.  

    • #62
  3. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    A mocktail conservative is…sober Milo?

    Leave Milo ALONE!

    Did you know that dogs no longer bark at Milo after he stopped being gay? A sign from God or he no longer uses as much fragrance. Either way, pretty impressive.

    The Silence of the Hams.

    Brilliance.  I got nothing.

    • #63
  4. 9thDistrictNeighbor Member
    9thDistrictNeighbor
    @9thDistrictNeighbor

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.  

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy?  Sheesh.

    • #64
  5. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    Well, it could have been any one of these:

    • Roger MacBride, who had gained fame in the 1972 election as a faithless elector, ran as the nominee of the Libertarian Party.
    • Eugene McCarthy, a former Democratic Senator from Minnesota, ran as an independent candidate.
    • Ben Bubar, Prohibition Party nominee.
    • Frank Zeidler, former mayor of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ran as the nominee of Socialist Party USA, which was founded in 1973 in a split with Socialist Party of America.
    • Gus Hall, four-time Communist Party candidate[3]
    • Lester Maddox, the former Democratic Governor of Georgia (and Lieutenant Governor under Carter), ran as the nominee of the American Independent Party

    Place your bets!

    • #65
  6. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy. 

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972.  I was in college then. 

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. 

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution. 

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.   

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

    • #66
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy.

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972. I was in college then.

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution.

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

     

    • #67
  8. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    A mocktail conservative is…sober Milo?

    Leave Milo ALONE!

    Did you know that dogs no longer bark at Milo after he stopped being gay? A sign from God or he no longer uses as much fragrance. Either way, pretty impressive.

    Are you suggesting dogs are homophobic?

    • #68
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    A mocktail conservative is…sober Milo?

    Leave Milo ALONE!

    Did you know that dogs no longer bark at Milo after he stopped being gay? A sign from God or he no longer uses as much fragrance. Either way, pretty impressive.

    Are you suggesting dogs are homophobic?

    Au contraire.

    • #69
  10. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy.

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972. I was in college then.

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution.

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

    I also voted as follows:

    In 1980 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1984 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1988 for George H.W. Bush

    In 1996 for Bob Dole.

    In 2000 for George W. Bush.

    In 2004 for George W. Bush.

    In 2008 for John McCain.

    In 2912 for Mitt Romney.

    • #70
  11. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy.

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972. I was in college then.

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution.

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

    I also voted as follows:

    In 1980 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1984 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1988 for George H.W. Bush

    In 1996 for Bob Dole.

    In 2000 for George W. Bush.

    In 2004 for George W. Bush.

    In 2008 for John McCain.

    In 2912 for Mitt Romney.

    You went 900 years into the future and voted for Romney? I  wouldn’t be surprised if he was still around.  Dude takes care of himself. 

    • #71
  12. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy.

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972. I was in college then.

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution.

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

    I also voted as follows:

    In 1980 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1984 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1988 for George H.W. Bush

    In 1996 for Bob Dole.

    In 2000 for George W. Bush.

    In 2004 for George W. Bush.

    In 2008 for John McCain.

    In 2912 for Mitt Romney.

    You went 900 years into the future and voted for Romney? I wouldn’t be surprised if he was still around. Dude takes care of himself.

    Works out a lot.  Dog lifts, Woman binds, Party crushes…

    • #72
  13. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    BDB (View Comment):

    thelonious (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    I have voted third party three times since 1972, namely in 1976, 1992, and 2016.

    You voted for Eugene McCarthy? Sheesh.

    I never voted for Gene McCarthy.

    I voted for George McGovern in 1972. I was in college then.

    In 1976 I voted Libertarian because I could not make up my mind between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford.

    In 1992 I voted Libertarian because I felt that George H.W. Bush had betrayed the Reagan Revolution.

    In 2016, I voted for Evan McMullin.

    In 2024, I will vote for any Republican (other than Trump or DJTJ) over any Democrat, and I will vote for any Democrat over Trump (or DJTJ).

    I also voted as follows:

    In 1980 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1984 for Ronald Reagan.

    In 1988 for George H.W. Bush

    In 1996 for Bob Dole.

    In 2000 for George W. Bush.

    In 2004 for George W. Bush.

    In 2008 for John McCain.

    In 2912 for Mitt Romney.

    You went 900 years into the future and voted for Romney? I wouldn’t be surprised if he was still around. Dude takes care of himself.

    Works out a lot. Dog lifts, Woman binds, Party crushes…

    I got a Christmas Card from Mitt Romney.  You would not believe how many grandchildren and great-grandchildren he has!  900 years from now, we will be a Mormon nation in that they are propagating themselves at an amazing rate.  While I am not LDS, they are some of the nicest people I have ever met.

    • #73
  14. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    On the left, they organize for power.

    On the right, they organize for charter cruises.

    I’ve not gone on a cruise, have you?

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    Someone like Scott Pressler (whom I first learned about via Twitter) goes to various states/cities and organizes voter registrations drives to specifically get more people registered as Republicans. He has been pretty successful at this. He does this via small donations, and he has NO support from the national/state parties or “GOP-adjacent” organizations, such as Hillsdale or NR. (As an aside, he also organized neighborhood clean-ups in Baltimore and LA. In Charm City his team removed 30 tons of garbage from the streets.)

    THIS is what the right should be doing. Not only organizing the drives, but training people in each state to organize these drives themselves, Pressler also does this when he goes into a state/city. Instead we get magazines and cruises.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a place for such things, but one would think the party would give some backing and support to these efforts. After all, these are the foundations of the the party. But the GOP has been failing at it.

    This is exactly right. And then NR looks around and can’t figure out why the Democrats beat us all the time. So they blame Trump.

    Why? Because the right spends foolishly. The left spends for power.

    Or if you prefer, the left are the ants working furiously and tirelessly for every election. The right are the grasshoppers with cocktail parties and cruises. And they are losing.

    See, this is what I was talking about. Why in hell isn’t the GOP doing this?!

     

    • #74
  15. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    On the left, they organize for power.

    On the right, they organize for charter cruises.

    I’ve not gone on a cruise, have you?

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    Someone like Scott Pressler (whom I first learned about via Twitter) goes to various states/cities and organizes voter registrations drives to specifically get more people registered as Republicans. He has been pretty successful at this. He does this via small donations, and he has NO support from the national/state parties or “GOP-adjacent” organizations, such as Hillsdale or NR. (As an aside, he also organized neighborhood clean-ups in Baltimore and LA. In Charm City his team removed 30 tons of garbage from the streets.)

    THIS is what the right should be doing. Not only organizing the drives, but training people in each state to organize these drives themselves, Pressler also does this when he goes into a state/city. Instead we get magazines and cruises.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a place for such things, but one would think the party would give some backing and support to these efforts. After all, these are the foundations of the the party. But the GOP has been failing at it.

    This is exactly right. And then NR looks around and can’t figure out why the Democrats beat us all the time. So they blame Trump.

    Why? Because the right spends foolishly. The left spends for power.

    Or if you prefer, the left are the ants working furiously and tirelessly for every election. The right are the grasshoppers with cocktail parties and cruises. And they are losing.

    See, this is what I was talking about. Why in hell isn’t the GOP doing this?!

     

    Maybe the GOP is in it for the fundraising and not to win elections. They are the equivalent of the Washington Generals in an exhibition game with the Harlem Globetrotters.  

    • #75
  16. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

     

     

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame).  In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts.  Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    • #76
  17. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    • #77
  18. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    David C. Broussard: To the left, the Constitution is a barrier to what they want to accomplish, which they see as a progressive utopia.

    Well, that is a perfect description of the Constitution. They do know what the Constitution is and they don’t get anywhere as long as Americans abide it. They got the 16th and 17th Amendments to soften the barriers, used the 1st Amendment’s freedom of speech and press so successfully that now they won’t to get rid of it.

    • #78
  19. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    Pretty sure that didn’t happen.  In the primary, the were stridently anti-Trump.  In the general, it was every man for himself, but the anti-HRC columns kept flowing.  My guess is virtually none of NR’s writers voted for HRC, but that many voted third party or left president blank.  In 2016, I make no apology for voting third party.  I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better.  When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won.  But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    • #79
  20. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):
    I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better.  When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won.  But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    What do you think about the discretion exercised by those who supported Trump in 2016?  “Just lucky”?

    • #80
  21. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    Pretty sure that didn’t happen. In the primary, the were stridently anti-Trump. In the general, it was every man for himself, but the anti-HRC columns kept flowing. My guess is virtually none of NR’s writers voted for HRC, but that many voted third party or left president blank. In 2016, I make no apology for voting third party. I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better. When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won. But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    @douglasmyers Were you unaware in 2016 of the power being wielded by the intelligence agencies? I wasn’t sure but I had great suspicion with that Communist heading the CIA. I was still uncertain about Trump at the beginning of his term but the intelligence operatives confirmed quickly my thoughts about them.

    • #81
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    Pretty sure that didn’t happen.

    As they tell us when a RINO Squish is nominated, “It’s a binary choice!” So if they opposed Trump, they were essentially endorsing Hillary.

     

    • #82
  23. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    BDB (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):
    I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better. When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won. But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    What do you think about the discretion exercised by those who supported Trump in 2016? “Just lucky”?

    It probably depends.  I would guess voters fell into roughly some overlapping camps.  There were some who said, “Trump can’t be worse than HRC”, but never actually tried to figure out what Trump was all about.  They were lucky.  Others said, “Trump can’t be worse than HRC”, but based it on things they saw, knew, and surmised about Trump.  Turns out they saw something more substantial in Trump than I, and I wouldn’t call them “just lucky”.  Some obviously liked/loved Trump and saw something attractive in him as a candidate.  In 2016 I saw none of that, but I have to concede that these folks read him and/or the situation better than I did.

    Bottom line–I think if we’re honest, none of us actually knew what Trump would be like policy-wise, but it’s not ludicrous that some figured he could be held to his word more than I did.  I was very concerned that he’d get into office and be flattered by Pelosi et al. into doing stupid things.  That’s was probably where I was most wrong–no one even tried that tack, going straight for his jugular out of the gate, which I’m persuaded did as much to steel him against bad policies as anything else.  In other words, the Ds promoted bad policies, the Ds viciously attacked Trump at every turn, so therefore Trump fought the Ds at every turn–and for the better.

    • #83
  24. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    Pretty sure that didn’t happen. In the primary, the were stridently anti-Trump. In the general, it was every man for himself, but the anti-HRC columns kept flowing. My guess is virtually none of NR’s writers voted for HRC, but that many voted third party or left president blank. In 2016, I make no apology for voting third party. I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better. When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won. But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    @ douglasmyers Were you unaware in 2016 of the power being wielded by the intelligence agencies? I wasn’t sure but I had great suspicion with that Communist heading the CIA. I was still uncertain about Trump at the beginning of his term but the intelligence operatives confirmed quickly my thoughts about them.

    In 2016 I had no inkling that intelligence agencies were wielding power in the election.

    • #84
  25. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    Oh, I know NR isn’t any sort of Republican publication. They basically endorsed the Democrat in 2016.

    Pretty sure that didn’t happen.

    As they tell us when a RINO Squish is nominated, “It’s a binary choice!” So if they opposed Trump, they were essentially endorsing Hillary.

     

    I hear you, but sometimes the choices are so bad, not voting is the only way to go.  That’s what I thought to be the case in 2016.  Turns out I was wrong.  

    • #85
  26. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):
    I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better. When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won. But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    What do you think about the discretion exercised by those who supported Trump in 2016? “Just lucky”?

    It probably depends. I would guess voters fell into roughly some overlapping camps. There were some who said, “Trump can’t be worse than HRC”, but never actually tried to figure out what Trump was all about. They were lucky. Others said, “Trump can’t be worse than HRC”, but based it on things they saw, knew, and surmised about Trump. Turns out they saw something more substantial in Trump than I, and I wouldn’t call them “just lucky”. Some obviously liked/loved Trump and saw something attractive in him as a candidate. In 2016 I saw none of that, but I have to concede that these folks read him and/or the situation better than I did.

    Bottom line–I think if we’re honest, none of us actually knew what Trump would be like policy-wise, but it’s not ludicrous that some figured he could be held to his word more than I did. I was very concerned that he’d get into office and be flattered by Pelosi et al. into doing stupid things. That’s was probably where I was most wrong–no one even tried that tack, going straight for his jugular out of the gate, which I’m persuaded did as much to steel him against bad policies as anything else. In other words, the Ds promoted bad policies, the Ds viciously attacked Trump at every turn, so therefore Trump fought the Ds at every turn–and for the better.

    The late, great Rush described Trump better than almost anyone else. Faults, bad judgement about people, strengths, and all the rest. 

    • #86
  27. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    BDB (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):
    I knew HRC would be bad, but I had no confidence that Trump would be any better. When Trump ended up being relatively conservative and excellent on judicial selections, I was happy he won. But in 2016 I had no confidence that he would do anything he promised in the campaign.

    What do you think about the discretion exercised by those who supported Trump in 2016? “Just lucky”?

    I think “lucky” but not just that. “Not Hillary” was big.

    • #87
  28. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Ya know, Gary, what Drew’s getting at is that organizations like National Review, etc., don’t help organize or sponsor things like voter registration drives and so on. They organize cruises.

     

     

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    You left out this part of my comment:

    Instead we get magazines and cruises.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a place for such things, but one would think the party would give some backing and support to these efforts. After all, these are the foundations of the the party. But the GOP has been failing at it.

    (Emphasis added.)

    While NR may want to “…avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party,” they also don’t advocate that the party while ostensibly aligns with them, the GOP, sponsor measure such as voter registration, etc. Hell, I don’t think they’ve even done a profile of Scott Pressler, which they absolutely should.

    • #88
  29. Justin Other Lawyer Coolidge
    Justin Other Lawyer
    @DouglasMyers

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Justin Other Lawyer (View Comment):

    I’ll give a brief defense for NR here–they hold themselves out as an opinion journal, and very self-consciously avoid the appearance of being an arm of the Republican party (which the MSM does re: the Democratic party, to its shame). In fact, NR rarely endorses candidates for particular offices, although IIRC, they have begun to do that more often of late.

    At any rate, I see nothing wrong with NR avoiding GOTV efforts. Those efforts are more properly for the parties and political advocacy groups, IMO.

    You left out this part of my comment:

    Instead we get magazines and cruises.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a place for such things, but one would think the party would give some backing and support to these efforts. After all, these are the foundations of the the party. But the GOP has been failing at it.

    (Emphasis added.)

     

    My apologies.  I didn’t mean to misrepresent your point.  Thanks for pointing it out.

    • #89
  30. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m assuming that a cocktail conservative is the neo-Rockefeller-wannabe commentariat.

    I assume it’s the ones who want to be liked and respected by the leftwing ruling class. They are very vulnerable to peer pressure, and they choose their peers badly.

    Take some time to assess the staff that works for them.  You will find a decisive left/progressive tilt. 

    • #90
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