No US Troops in Ukraine, Thank You Very Much

 

If you’ve listened to today’s flagship podcast, you know it got a bit spicy. (If you haven’t yet listened, you’re in for a treat.) To briefly recap, co-host @jameslileks noted his support for Ukraine. Our guest considered his support insufficient because he does not want the U.S. military sent into the war zone.

This critique struck many Ricochetti as odd since the public agrees with James by a large margin. A recent Reuters poll showed that only 26 percent want troops tromping about the Transdnieper. The guest said, no problem, because public opinion is “malleable” (shudder). After the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention general governmental incompetence over two decades, I suspect we are less malleable than expected.

The days of massive American intervention are gone, at least for quite a while. I prefer a foreign policy that’s more John Quincy Adams than Woodrow Wilson, especially considering all the messes on the homefront.

In an 1823 letter to our Minister in Madrid, Hugh Nelson, JQA wrote:

It has been the policy of these United States from the time when their independence was achieved to hold themselves aloof from the political system and contentions of Europe… The first and paramount duty of the government is to maintain peace amidst the convulsions of foreign wars and to enter the lists as parties to no cause, other than our own.

Just so. The exigencies of the Cold War drastically changed this attitude, but it is long past time we return to its wisdom.

In his Independence Day address of 1821, Adams more completely laid out his foreign policy vision [emphases mine]:

America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama [field of blood], the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet on her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world; she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit….

Her glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

America was founded as a nation that minded its own business. The sooner we return to that vision, the safer we, and the world, will be. This is not “isolationism,” but common sense. We elect leaders to enact our will and protect our nation; it is other nations’ duty to do the same. If an enemy attacks us, we unleash hell upon them; that doesn’t mean we can police the world. We refuse even to police our own borders.

George Washington foreshadowed J. Q. Adams’ foreign policy. In his farewell address, our first president said:

Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it?

…In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur…. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

… it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

…Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

They might even demand you place a Ukraine flag emoji on your social media profile. Washington continues…

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it…

Wherever it is possible, bring our troops home. As long as we are not attacked, keep them here. Our military was founded to protect America, not any other nation, no matter how noble their fight may be.

Fair warning: I am not very malleable when body bags are advocated.

Published in Foreign Policy, Military
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  1. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    BDB (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton.

    Clinton.

     

    Then there’s this:

    I’m sure that’s an offical hug only, and the smug looks were feigned.

    I can find pictures like that all day long. It means nothing.

    The photos with Trump and the Clintons are even cozier.

    Great. Find me one with Bush and Trump.

    You really like to make me work, don’t you?

    • #241
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Also

    Bush II led us into two wars we did not win.

    By win I mean: We got in, we achieved our objectives and left. We did not leave two functioning democratic states. That was the stated goal. We did not do that, we did not win.

    Iraq is a functioning Democracy.

     

    • #242
  3. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Also

    Bush II led us into two wars we did not win.

    By win I mean: We got in, we achieved our objectives and left. We did not leave two functioning democratic states. That was the stated goal. We did not do that, we did not win.

    Iraq is a functioning Democracy.

    Trump invited the Taliban, the people who hosted the training for the 9-11 terrorists, to the US for negotiations.  

    • #243
  4. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    The things Bush criticizes about the direction of the Republican party under Trump (isolationist = no foreign entanglements; protectionist = standing up to China and bringing jobs back to our shores; nativist = close the borders and put Americans’ interests first, which should be the job description for every American president, one would think) are the things we “populists” want and like. And he’s silent about the rest. Not a fan

    Again, how is this a criticism? Which part do you disagree with??

    If Bush identifies those things as being the current state of the Republican Party, at least those outside of the GOPe, and he DISAGREES WITH THEM – which he apparently does – then it’s criticism. If HE doesn’t think the party SHOULD be that way.

    When did he ever say he disagreed?

    I haven’t looked for quotes, but sometimes “disagree” doesn’t need to be said, depending on context etc.

    You can say “those people are nativists” which might just be a description.

    Or you can say “THOSE people are NATIVISTS!” which is very likely – if not obviously – derisive, even without a “*snort*” or “Ptooie!”

    You are “mind reading” again. Everybody seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find any scrap of evidence that Bush may have “hinted” or “telegraphed” some criticism against Trump, but it is not there. This is no different than looking for the evidence of Russian Collusion. Meanwhile, if you want to find Trump criticizing either Bush or his father you’ve got ample public quotes of him openly mocking them or calling them “liars” and sarcastically a “serious genius.” And that was before any of these Bush references were made, so it wasn’t in response to anything Bush said about Trump.

    You think I couldn’t say the same thing about you, or anyone else, the same exact words, two separate times, but have it apparently mean the opposite depending on HOW I said it?

    Hello, have you met language?

    Of course, it happens all the time.  But you are now implying that Bush criticized Trump, without ever actually saying it.  I could just as easily say that you said “Hello, have you met language?” but what you really meant was “Steven is a doody-head.”  Words really do have meanings.  You just can’t decide what they mean.  That’s what leftists have been doing ever since Trump was elected.  Trump says “We want to  build a border wall” and leftists say Trump just said that “Mexicans are stupid people who should  be beaten with horse whips.”

    • #244
  5. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Also

    Bush II led us into two wars we did not win.

    By win I mean: We got in, we achieved our objectives and left. We did not leave two functioning democratic states. That was the stated goal. We did not do that, we did not win.

    Iraq is a functioning Democracy.

    Trump invited the Taliban, the people who hosted the training for the 9-11 terrorists, to the US for negotiations.

    Is your purpose here to turn this into a Trump discussion?

    • #245
  6. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    I’m not going to dig for sources etc., but I recall being serially disappointed and displeased with W’s animus for Trump and coziness with the Clintons and the Obamas.

    I’ve been down this road before on Ricochet and nobody is ever able to give me any sources or quotes that show George Bush criticizing Trump. With all due respect, I consider this to be sort of an “urban myth” among conservatives, whose story gets circulated around through innuendo, and without ever citing actual sources. I think the closest I’ve seen was one time he smiled and kind of roll his eyes when asked a question about Trump.

    Though I don’t pretend to know every quote or reference Bush ever made about Trump, I do know that Bush, like his father, chose to be pretty much completely silent on partisan political affairs after he left the Presidency. I find that to be admirable. Most politicians can’t help themselves by inserting partisan politics into their public statements, especially when it is not called for, even when they are out of office and it is no longer their job.

    The only trouble with this is that when you say nothing, everybody starts to “interpret” what you are saying into what they want to believe. I would even strongly think that Bush and his father have/had a low opinion of Donald Trump. But it doesn’t matter. What matters is that they have kept their mouths shut. The old saying goes “If you don’t have anything good to say about someone, don’t say it.” You may not be able to control your personal likes and dislikes but everybody has the capability to control their actions. And I don’t see any actions from Bush that are hurting the Party. I hate to say it but I see plenty of Trump actions after his ouster that are hurting the Party.

    As far as cozying up to the Clintons, no Republican has cozied up to them more than Donald Trump. He went out of his way to meet and mingle with them on dozens of occasions. And when the most critical moment came, he publicly announced that he would not be seeking charges against Hillary for hiding and destroying her communications as Secretary of State. I remember the huge disappointment from conservatives when James Comey originally declared that Hillary should not be charged (even though it was not his responsibility). It was like a gigantic lead balloon. But when Trump said it (and it definitely was his responsibility as head of the Executive Branch), conservatives pretty much gave him a pass and just let it slide.

    It happened in primaries in 2016. They were opponents and Trump said something that got under Bush family skin. No, I didn’t collect screenshots. I collect them on the left, rarely on the right. 

    • #246
  7. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Here it is. Read then get back on topic.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7905415/donald-trump-vs-bush-family-feud/

    • #247
  8. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so.  We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    • #248
  9. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):
    “Isolationist” is exactly what most people in this thread are arguing for. We want to keep out of foreign entanglements, no? I don’t know how many threads I’ve seen on Ricochet espousing trade barriers and tariffs. Is that not what is meant by “protectionist?” And “Nativist” is just the summation of those first two. It means concerning yourself with the interests of your own country over that of other countries. It is about the most accurate and concise description of the more recent Republican Party that I have seen.

    Of course “Nativist” and “Isolationist” have negative connotations, which is why those terms are used.

    Instead call it “Putting the interests of the citizens of America first.” Or perhaps “Respecting our nation and culture and deeming them important and worth protecting.”

    Those terms are only negative if you want them to be. I’ve heard the term “isolationist” for years in describing historical trade policies of the United States and it was just a term used to describe conditions. “Free trade” is the opposite term used. That could be negative too if you want it to be. In fact I think it is often used as a pejorative on this site.

    “Nativist” is a new term for me but all the definitions I’ve seen don’t mention anything derogatory.

    No, no . . . “nativist” and “isolationist” definitely have negative connotations. In their usage they are almost exclusively negative. I didn’t realize there was even a question about that.

    Then what better term would you use to describe your views on wanting to stay out of foreign entanglements. I can’t think of a better term than “Isolationist.” It is the term always used for any country in the world that wants to stay out of foreign affairs.

    Your description of “Putting the interests of America first” is very accurate, but it is a sentence clause, not a word. What word would you use instead of “Nativist?” If there is no other than maybe it’s time to invent one.

    “American.”

    That doesn’t work. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are Americans.

    No, they’re not. They may say that they are, but they’re globalists.

    According to Trump, not only are Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden not Americans, neither is George W. Bush or Mitch McConnell.

    Eventually the list of people who qualify as Americans will get smaller and smaller. That does not seem like a recipe for success in future elections.

    It would if we were checking IDs.

    • #249
  10. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    You won’t even vote for Republicans who don’t meet your approval, happy to cede Congress or the White House to Democrats. Maybe don’t preach about “that kind of generosity,” guy.

    • #250
  11. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.  

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement.  That was a kick in the teeth. 

    • #251
  12. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Eventually the list of people who qualify as Americans will get smaller and smaller. That does not seem like a recipe for success in future elections.

    Says the guy who has a narrow view of who qualifies as a Republican.

    • #252
  13. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement. That was a kick in the teeth.

    Now do Trump as president.

    • #253
  14. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Trump invited the Taliban, the people who hosted the training for the 9-11 terrorists, to the US for negotiations.

    I get that you hate Trump — you’ve made that clear — but you do realize the U.S.’s long involvement in Afghanistan includes actually funding the Taliban, . . . both before and after 9/11?

    Or did history only begin with Trump for you?

    • #254
  15. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement. That was a kick in the teeth.

    Now do Trump as president.

    Trump invited the Taliban, the regime that hosted the September 11, 2001 terrorists who attacked America, to the United States for negotiations.  

    Why does Trump appease America’s enemies?  

    • #255
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    The things Bush criticizes about the direction of the Republican party under Trump (isolationist = no foreign entanglements; protectionist = standing up to China and bringing jobs back to our shores; nativist = close the borders and put Americans’ interests first, which should be the job description for every American president, one would think) are the things we “populists” want and like. And he’s silent about the rest. Not a fan

    Again, how is this a criticism? Which part do you disagree with??

    If Bush identifies those things as being the current state of the Republican Party, at least those outside of the GOPe, and he DISAGREES WITH THEM – which he apparently does – then it’s criticism. If HE doesn’t think the party SHOULD be that way.

    When did he ever say he disagreed?

    I haven’t looked for quotes, but sometimes “disagree” doesn’t need to be said, depending on context etc.

    You can say “those people are nativists” which might just be a description.

    Or you can say “THOSE people are NATIVISTS!” which is very likely – if not obviously – derisive, even without a “*snort*” or “Ptooie!”

    You are “mind reading” again. Everybody seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find any scrap of evidence that Bush may have “hinted” or “telegraphed” some criticism against Trump, but it is not there. This is no different than looking for the evidence of Russian Collusion. Meanwhile, if you want to find Trump criticizing either Bush or his father you’ve got ample public quotes of him openly mocking them or calling them “liars” and sarcastically a “serious genius.” And that was before any of these Bush references were made, so it wasn’t in response to anything Bush said about Trump.

    You think I couldn’t say the same thing about you, or anyone else, the same exact words, two separate times, but have it apparently mean the opposite depending on HOW I said it?

    Hello, have you met language?

    Of course, it happens all the time. But you are now implying that Bush criticized Trump, without ever actually saying it. I could just as easily say that you said “Hello, have you met language?” but what you really meant was “Steven is a doody-head.” Words really do have meanings. You just can’t decide what they mean. That’s what leftists have been doing ever since Trump was elected. Trump says “We want to build a border wall” and leftists say Trump just said that “Mexicans are stupid people who should be beaten with horse whips.”

    Not the point, of course.  The point is that nobody has to say specifically “Trump is a lousy person” in order to convey that meaning.  They could say “Trump is a great person!” in a manner that clearly indicates they mean the opposite.

    It’s one of the reasons why people who insist on reading transcripts rather than hearing what is actually said, might completely miss what really happens.

    • #256
  17. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    Oh, [REDACTED]. You did not. You just hate Trump and now you’re looking to justify it.

     

    • #257
  18. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Is your purpose here to turn this into a Trump discussion?

    Sorry, I shouldn’t have taken the bait.

    • #258
  19. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    DrewInWisconsin, Oik (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Eventually the list of people who qualify as Americans will get smaller and smaller. That does not seem like a recipe for success in future elections.

    Says the guy who has a narrow view of who qualifies as a Republican.

    How about this: A Republican is someone who, at the very least, Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, Terry MacAuliffe and Anthony Weiner.  

    That’s not a high bar to clear.  But Trump couldn’t clear that bar.  

    • #259
  20. DrewInWisconsin, Oik Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oik
    @DrewInWisconsin

    The main question is who you want to control Congress or the White House. Doesn’t matter about the “quality” of the candidate as The Turtle is whining about. What matters is which party you want running this country. Vote for the Republican if you want Republicans in charge. Vote for Democrats if you want Democrats in charge.

    Abstaining is basically saying that it doesn’t matter.

    • #260
  21. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    It depends on who it is and what they do. When Mitt Romney “can’t possibly” offer an endorsement in the Utah Senate race because both Mike Lee and Egg McMuffin are friends of his, it stretches credulity.

    Mainly because Mitt doesn’t have any friends.

    • #261
  22. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement. That was a kick in the teeth.

    Now do Trump as president.

    Trump invited the Taliban, the regime that hosted the September 11, 2001 terrorists who attacked America, to the United States for negotiations.

    Why does Trump appease America’s enemies?

    I’m suppose to be upset he made the Taliban come to him rather than the reverse? That isn’t appeasement but being boss.

    • #262
  23. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s one of the reasons why people who insist on reading transcripts rather than hearing what is actually said, might completely miss what really happens.

    Similar to the value of seeing the people being interviewed on podcasts.  Don’t get me wrong, I like the format & portability, but Man, that footage of Schake responding to Lileks  in the clip EJHill posted was priceless.

     

    • #263
  24. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement. That was a kick in the teeth.

    Now do Trump as president.

    I’m going to give the caveat that I liked the overall presidency of Trump (before y’all skin me alive), but he did “kick us in the teeth” a few times.

    The first is that he abandoned building “the wall” for the first two years of his presidency when he had majorities in both houses of Congress, despite it being his biggest and most unwavering campaign issue.  Ann Coulter, one of his biggest supporters just about disowned him over it and held a public vigil of counting the number of passing days where Trump never lifted a finger toward the wall.  He waited until the Democrats took over the House to revive “the wall” as an issue but then it was too late to get funding from Congress.  He was reduced to finagling money from unconventional sources which didn’t add up to the amount he could have gotten from Congress.  Thus, he only got partial stretches of  the border fence, which has come back to haunt us under Biden.

    Trump’s spending was through the roof!  George W. Bush’s biggest problem in my opinion was his huge budgets that increased the National  Debt. But he was a piker compared to Trump.  Every single year’s budget deficit under Trump was at minimum 40% higher than George Bush’s single worst spending year.  I know that conservatives have pretty much abandoned fiscal responsibility but I have not.  Outside of the social issues, it is to me, the biggest threat to our country.  Just look  what is happening with a little inflation and imagine what things would look like with a total financial collapse.

    A third “kick in the teeth” would  be the total reversal on prosecuting Hillary Clinton that I mentioned earlier.  Trump used the expected future prosecution of Clinton as a rallying cry at his campaign stops.  Then when push came to shove, he caved.  That is the epitome of the two-tiered Justice System where the “big guys” get away with murder while the little guy flounders in jail.

    • #264
  25. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I love how my point on Papa Bush was ignored.

    win.

    Bryan Stephens: “Pappas Bush was best Fiends with Clinton. Clinton.”

    I didn’t think it had much relevance. Donald Trump was even better friends with the Clintons than Pappa Bush.

    When Trump donated money to the campaigns of Harry Reid and Terry MacAuliffe, many Trump supporters shrugged it off saying, “Trump is a businessman. Of course he’s going to donate to both Democrats and Republicans.”

    But I don’t see that kind of generosity applied towards other Republicans. A double standard seems to be at work here.

    Oh, very much so. We got our teeth kicked in enough times by the Republicans you have in mind.

    That’s how you got Trump.

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    Same for when, in 2016, the North Carolina state legislature passed a bathroom bill that overturned the transgender bathroom bill passed in Charlotte, North Carolina got threatened with boycotts, Trump sided against the North Carolina state legislature instead of against the radical transgender movement. That was a kick in the teeth.

    Now do Trump as president.

    Trump invited the Taliban, the regime that hosted the September 11, 2001 terrorists who attacked America, to the United States for negotiations.

    Why does Trump appease America’s enemies?

    My biggest beef is that Trump excluded the Afghanistan Government from the negotiations.  I’m willing to  give him the benefit of the doubt, however, because there might have been a good reason to do so.   But it would have to be mighty big to exclude them and not exclude a sworn terrorist enemy.

    • #265
  26. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    (Snip)

    Now do Trump as president.

    I’m going to give the caveat that I liked the overall presidency of Trump (before y’all skin me alive), but he did “kick us in the teeth” a few times.

    The first is that he abandoned building “the wall” for the first two years of his presidency when he had majorities in both houses of Congress, despite it being his biggest and most unwavering campaign issue. Ann Coulter, one of his biggest supporters just about disowned him over it and held a public vigil of counting the number of passing days where Trump never lifted a finger toward the wall. He waited until the Democrats took over the House to revive “the wall” as an issue but then it was too late to get funding from Congress. He was reduced to finagling money from unconventional sources which didn’t add up to the amount he could have gotten from Congress. Thus, he only got partial stretches of the border fence, which has come back to haunt us under Biden.

    Trump’s spending was through the roof! George W. Bush’s biggest problem in my opinion was his huge budgets that increased the National Debt. But he was a piker compared to Trump. Every single year’s budget deficit under Trump was at minimum 40% higher than George Bush’s single worst spending year. I know that conservatives have pretty much abandoned fiscal responsibility but I have not. Outside of the social issues, it is to me, the biggest threat to our country. Just look what is happening with a little inflation and imagine what things would look like with a total financial collapse.

    A third “kick in the teeth” would be the total reversal on prosecuting Hillary Clinton that I mentioned earlier. Trump used the expected future prosecution of Clinton as a rallying cry at his campaign stops. Then when push came to shove, he caved. That is the epitome of the two-tiered Justice System where the “big guys” get away with murder while the little guy flounders in jail.

    Spending will go through the roof until the country collapses. So much of it is not discretionary. Entitlements consume~12-13% of GDP. 

    • #266
  27. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    (Snip)

    Now do Trump as president.

    I’m going to give the caveat that I liked the overall presidency of Trump (before y’all skin me alive), but he did “kick us in the teeth” a few times.

    The first is that he abandoned building “the wall” for the first two years of his presidency when he had majorities in both houses of Congress, despite it being his biggest and most unwavering campaign issue. Ann Coulter, one of his biggest supporters just about disowned him over it and held a public vigil of counting the number of passing days where Trump never lifted a finger toward the wall. He waited until the Democrats took over the House to revive “the wall” as an issue but then it was too late to get funding from Congress. He was reduced to finagling money from unconventional sources which didn’t add up to the amount he could have gotten from Congress. Thus, he only got partial stretches of the border fence, which has come back to haunt us under Biden.

    Trump’s spending was through the roof! George W. Bush’s biggest problem in my opinion was his huge budgets that increased the National Debt. But he was a piker compared to Trump. Every single year’s budget deficit under Trump was at minimum 40% higher than George Bush’s single worst spending year. I know that conservatives have pretty much abandoned fiscal responsibility but I have not. Outside of the social issues, it is to me, the biggest threat to our country. Just look what is happening with a little inflation and imagine what things would look like with a total financial collapse.

    A third “kick in the teeth” would be the total reversal on prosecuting Hillary Clinton that I mentioned earlier. Trump used the expected future prosecution of Clinton as a rallying cry at his campaign stops. Then when push came to shove, he caved. That is the epitome of the two-tiered Justice System where the “big guys” get away with murder while the little guy flounders in jail.

    Spending will go through the roof until the country collapses. So much of it is not discretionary. Entitlements consume~12-13% of GDP.

    It doesn’t have to be (new) spending that makes things collapse.  Last I heard, it would take only a rather minor increase of interest rates before “debit service” consumes ALL “discretionary” spending.

    • #267
  28. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    (Snip)

    Now do Trump as president.

    I’m going to give the caveat that I liked the overall presidency of Trump (before y’all skin me alive), but he did “kick us in the teeth” a few times.

    The first is that he abandoned building “the wall” for the first two years of his presidency when he had majorities in both houses of Congress, despite it being his biggest and most unwavering campaign issue. Ann Coulter, one of his biggest supporters just about disowned him over it and held a public vigil of counting the number of passing days where Trump never lifted a finger toward the wall. He waited until the Democrats took over the House to revive “the wall” as an issue but then it was too late to get funding from Congress. He was reduced to finagling money from unconventional sources which didn’t add up to the amount he could have gotten from Congress. Thus, he only got partial stretches of the border fence, which has come back to haunt us under Biden.

    Trump’s spending was through the roof! George W. Bush’s biggest problem in my opinion was his huge budgets that increased the National Debt. But he was a piker compared to Trump. Every single year’s budget deficit under Trump was at minimum 40% higher than George Bush’s single worst spending year. I know that conservatives have pretty much abandoned fiscal responsibility but I have not. Outside of the social issues, it is to me, the biggest threat to our country. Just look what is happening with a little inflation and imagine what things would look like with a total financial collapse.

    A third “kick in the teeth” would be the total reversal on prosecuting Hillary Clinton that I mentioned earlier. Trump used the expected future prosecution of Clinton as a rallying cry at his campaign stops. Then when push came to shove, he caved. That is the epitome of the two-tiered Justice System where the “big guys” get away with murder while the little guy flounders in jail.

    Spending will go through the roof until the country collapses. So much of it is not discretionary. Entitlements consume~12-13% of GDP.

    You say that as if it is okay to keep up the massive government spending.  I think it is wrong.

    • #268
  29. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Spending will go through the roof until the country collapses. So much of it is not discretionary. Entitlements consume~12-13% of GDP.

    You say that as if it is okay to keep up the massive government spending.  I think it is wrong.

    Just for effect:

    Which of those words are defined as approval?

    • #269
  30. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Red Herring (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some of us who wanted to defeat Harry Reid in his 2010 US Senate race look at Trump’s donation to Harry Reid’s 2010 US Senate campaign as a kick in the teeth.

    When Trump appeared on the Fox Business Channel to endorse President Obama’s economic stimulus plan, while over 90 percent of Republicans in Congress voted against it, Republicans who opposed Obama’s give away programs viewed that as a kick in the teeth.

    (Snip)

    Now do Trump as president.

    I’m going to give the caveat that I liked the overall presidency of Trump (before y’all skin me alive), but he did “kick us in the teeth” a few times.

    The first is that he abandoned building “the wall” for the first two years of his presidency when he had majorities in both houses of Congress, despite it being his biggest and most unwavering campaign issue. Ann Coulter, one of his biggest supporters just about disowned him over it and held a public vigil of counting the number of passing days where Trump never lifted a finger toward the wall. He waited until the Democrats took over the House to revive “the wall” as an issue but then it was too late to get funding from Congress. He was reduced to finagling money from unconventional sources which didn’t add up to the amount he could have gotten from Congress. Thus, he only got partial stretches of the border fence, which has come back to haunt us under Biden.

    Trump’s spending was through the roof! George W. Bush’s biggest problem in my opinion was his huge budgets that increased the National Debt. But he was a piker compared to Trump. Every single year’s budget deficit under Trump was at minimum 40% higher than George Bush’s single worst spending year. I know that conservatives have pretty much abandoned fiscal responsibility but I have not. Outside of the social issues, it is to me, the biggest threat to our country. Just look what is happening with a little inflation and imagine what things would look like with a total financial collapse.

    A third “kick in the teeth” would be the total reversal on prosecuting Hillary Clinton that I mentioned earlier. Trump used the expected future prosecution of Clinton as a rallying cry at his campaign stops. Then when push came to shove, he caved. That is the epitome of the two-tiered Justice System where the “big guys” get away with murder while the little guy flounders in jail.

    Spending will go through the roof until the country collapses. So much of it is not discretionary. Entitlements consume~12-13% of GDP.

    You say that as if it is okay to keep up the massive government spending. I think it is wrong.

    I didn’t say it is ok. I merely stated reality.

    • #270
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