Let’s Talk ‘Treason’

 

Treason is one of the few crimes specifically mentioned in our Constitution. And the courts have been very specific in what constitutes the offense. In Cramer v US the 5-4 majority declared:

A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country’s policy or interest, but, so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions which do aid and comfort the enemy—making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength—but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.

And that was written in 1945 when the United States was operating under the last full-blown Congressional declaration of war. Today a sitting United States senator accused a former Congresswoman and current Lt. Colonel of the United States Army Reserve of treason. And people cheered.

I hold no special regard for Ms. Gabbard. She’s a Democrat and I think some of her ideas are absurd. But I have no need to insist that any policy difference I have with her meets any definition of “treason,” let alone the Constitutional one.

And while I also hate the “chicken hawk” trope, the end of the military draft in this country has created a huge divide where those who rattle the loudest sabers and advocate for war are the ones whose children are the most unlikely to be asked to bear the burden.

The Romneys are an especially large family and an “Army of None.” Daddy George, who was 34 at the time of Pearl Harbor, didn’t enlist. Mittens got four deferments during Vietnam.  Older brother Scott avoided it, too. None of his children have served.

Nor has his peanut gallery of supporters. (As an aside I will give the Kristol family props here. Bill’s son Joe was a USMC infantry officer in Afghanistan from September 2010 to April 2011.) It’s only us lowly “proles” who offer up our children for their hubris. And I’m sick of it.

I’m also sick of politicians who tell me Ukraine’s borders are inviolable to the tune of $13.6B but not a dime for our own southern border. In 2016 Jimmy Carter’s pollster, Patrick Caddell, declared that the United States was in a “pre-revolutionary” state. If someone doesn’t get their act together soon the revolution will come. And it won’t be pretty. Then we can talk about the real meaning of treason.

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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike.  I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing. 

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants.  But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    • #121
  2. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike. I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing.

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants. But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    If history is a guide it will always eventually get to something that is too expensive to give up on.

    • #122
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike. I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing.

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants. But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    If history is a guide it will always eventually get to something that is too expensive to give up on.

    Well, maybe.  But in this case it seems like he might threaten nukes first over the bigger things, such as US sovereignty.  After that, everything seems like small potatoes.  He might demand that CNN be the only TV network, but if we’re already a client of Russia, would having only CNN be worth destroying the world over?

    • #123
  4. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike. I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing.

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants. But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    If history is a guide it will always eventually get to something that is too expensive to give up on.

    Well, maybe. But in this case it seems like he might threaten nukes first over the bigger things, such as US sovereignty. After that, everything seems like small potatoes. He might demand that CNN be the only TV network, but if we’re already a client of Russia, would having only CNN be worth destroying the world over

    It isn’t worth doing anything over CNN.  American sovereignty may be worthwhile, too soon to tell on that one.

    • #124
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike. I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing.

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants. But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    If history is a guide it will always eventually get to something that is too expensive to give up on.

    Well, maybe. But in this case it seems like he might threaten nukes first over the bigger things, such as US sovereignty. After that, everything seems like small potatoes. He might demand that CNN be the only TV network, but if we’re already a client of Russia, would having only CNN be worth destroying the world over

    It isn’t worth doing anything over CNN. American sovereignty may be worthwhile, too soon to tell on that one.

    Which means that, if Putin said right now that he wants CNN to be the only TV channel in the US, Or Else Nukes, you’d be in favor of going along?

    • #125
  6. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Raxxalan (View Comment):
    True but if that is the case then a nuclear exchange ending the world is inevitable, and we would need to consider either alternative means of removing the threat or be contemplating a preemptive strike. I consider both of these too high cost to act on the possibility that you are accurately describing.

    Not necessarily inevitable, if Putin is given everything he wants. But there’s no telling how far that list might extend.

    If history is a guide it will always eventually get to something that is too expensive to give up on.

    Well, maybe. But in this case it seems like he might threaten nukes first over the bigger things, such as US sovereignty. After that, everything seems like small potatoes. He might demand that CNN be the only TV network, but if we’re already a client of Russia, would having only CNN be worth destroying the world over

    It isn’t worth doing anything over CNN. American sovereignty may be worthwhile, too soon to tell on that one.

    Which means that, if Putin said right now that he wants CNN to be the only TV channel in the US, Or Else Nukes, you’d be in favor of going along?

    /sarc on

    I would be deeply conflicted.  On the one hand I would hate to see Putin win,  but never having to see CNN in the airports again… all I can say is tempting. 

    /sarc off

    • #126
  7. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    On the other hand, when CNN is the last media outlet standing, we’ll fight to keep them on the air — and we’ll be right.  Despite their corruption and plumping for the Dominant Paradigm, they’re not explicitly state-owned.   Yet.

    • #127
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    BDB (View Comment):

    On the other hand, when CNN is the last media outlet standing, we’ll fight to keep them on the air — and we’ll be right. Despite their corruption and plumping for the Dominant Paradigm, they’re not explicitly state-owned. Yet.

    So, we wouldn’t risk nukes to keep CNN from being the only TV channel, but we WOULD get nuked over CNN being taken off too?  Not sure I agree.

    • #128
  9. DrewInWisconsin, Oat! Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oat!
    @DrewInWisconsin

    My lord . . .

    Remind me again whose side we’re supposed to be on?

    • #129
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    DrewInWisconsin, Oat! (View Comment):

    My lord . . .

    Remind me again whose side we’re supposed to be on?

    Biden is only on Biden’s side, as always.

    • #130
  11. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    kedavis (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    On the other hand, when CNN is the last media outlet standing, we’ll fight to keep them on the air — and we’ll be right. Despite their corruption and plumping for the Dominant Paradigm, they’re not explicitly state-owned. Yet.

    So, we wouldn’t risk nukes to keep CNN from being the only TV channel, but we WOULD get nuked over CNN being taken off too? Not sure I agree.

    Easy there Cathy.  I’m not accommodating the whole damned thread here.  Feel free to agree or disagree with the words you put in my mouth.

    • #131
  12. Raxxalan Member
    Raxxalan
    @Raxxalan

    kedavis (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    On the other hand, when CNN is the last media outlet standing, we’ll fight to keep them on the air — and we’ll be right. Despite their corruption and plumping for the Dominant Paradigm, they’re not explicitly state-owned. Yet.

    So, we wouldn’t risk nukes to keep CNN from being the only TV channel, but we WOULD get nuked over CNN being taken off too? Not sure I agree.

    I was being sarcastic both times.  Perhaps a little snarky too.  I would not give an inch of US sovereignty to Putin even if it meant the end of everything.  That includes Making everything CNN and forcing the end of CNN.  I am hopeful  CNN will die of its own stupidity and I won’t be afflicted with it in the airport between flights.

    • #132
  13. DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) Coolidge
    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax)
    @DonG

    Bruce M (View Comment):
    His statement was that her statements were treasonous. That was intemperate and over the top but given the emotion of the moment, at least understandable.  

    I disagree.  As a member of the Senate (the world’s most deliberative body), emotional and intemperate pronouncements are not allowed.   Wise and thoughtful is the standard and we should chastise anything less.

    • #133
  14. DrewInWisconsin, Oat! Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oat!
    @DrewInWisconsin

    DonG (CAGW is a Hoax) (View Comment):

    Bruce M (View Comment):
    His statement was that her statements were treasonous. That was intemperate and over the top but given the emotion of the moment, at least understandable.

    I disagree. As a member of the Senate (the world’s most deliberative body), emotional and intemperate pronouncements are not allowed. Wise and thoughtful is the standard and we should chastise anything less.

    You’d think the intemperate pronouncements by Harry Reid from the Senate Floor about Romney’s taxes would have taught him something.

    Or . . . as I suspect, Romney was okay with losing, just as McCain was. (McCain made it too obvious, though, and pretty much blew his cover.)

     

    • #134
  15. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The problem with Tulsi is she sees all the corruption in the national security swamp but then wants socialized medicine, for example, and expects it to turn out any differently.

    She might grow out of it.

    One can hope.

    I’ve had enough of politicians who “grow” in office. 

    • #135
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The problem with Tulsi is she sees all the corruption in the national security swamp but then wants socialized medicine, for example, and expects it to turn out any differently.

    She might grow out of it.

    One can hope.

    I’ve had enough of politicians who “grow” in office.

    That’s because supposedly-conservative politicians always “grow” to the left.  Seeing a lefty perhaps actually “grow” to the right could be interesting.

    • #136
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The problem with Tulsi is she sees all the corruption in the national security swamp but then wants socialized medicine, for example, and expects it to turn out any differently.

    She might grow out of it.

    One can hope.

    I’ve had enough of politicians who “grow” in office.

    Or evolve.

    • #137
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The problem with Tulsi is she sees all the corruption in the national security swamp but then wants socialized medicine, for example, and expects it to turn out any differently.

    She might grow out of it.

    One can hope.

    I’ve had enough of politicians who “grow” in office.

    That’s because supposedly-conservative politicians always “grow” to the left. Seeing a lefty perhaps actually “grow” to the right could be interesting.

    Becoming corrupt is done by following the path of least resistance. 

    • #138
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    The problem with Tulsi is she sees all the corruption in the national security swamp but then wants socialized medicine, for example, and expects it to turn out any differently.

    She might grow out of it.

    One can hope.

    I’ve had enough of politicians who “grow” in office.

    That’s because supposedly-conservative politicians always “grow” to the left. Seeing a lefty perhaps actually “grow” to the right could be interesting.

    Becoming corrupt is done by following the path of least resistance.

    And Tulsi becoming more conservative would not be following the path of least resistance.

    • #139
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