Millions of Dead Ukrainians Suggest That Ignoring History Is Dangerous

 

In reading about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, I’ve come across sources that mention Russia’s economy, Putin’s historical revisionism, Zelenskyy’s background as an actor, Russian military tactics, oil pipelines, Finland’s military might, and the complex history between Russia and Ukraine. But I am amazed that there is one name that I have not seen mentioned anywhere: Lazar Kaganovich.

In a strange twist of fate, I am friends (not close friends, but friends) with Mr. Kaganovich’s grandson.  Sort of a long story.  I’ve considered writing about that.  But not today.  Regardless, as most of you know, Mr. Kaganovich was born to a Yiddish-speaking Jewish family in what is now Ukraine, became one of Joseph Stalin’s most trusted friends, and ended up being the leader of the Ukrainian genocide (the Holodomor famine) which killed 3-4 million Ukrainians under absolutely brutal conditions. He is remembered as one of Stalin’s most vicious henchmen.  Although my friend remembers him as a kind, doting grandfather.  Wow.  Anyway…

Ten years ago, I befriended a woman who moved to Tennessee from Ukraine with her junior high school daughter (who was in my daughter’s class – they became best friends).  I mentioned that I knew Kaganovich’s grandson, and my friend was shocked, but her daughter had no idea who he was.  She went to school in Ukraine until age 14, and had never heard of Kaganovich, who was responsible for the deaths of many in her family.  I wonder how many Ukrainians are unaware of this period of their history?  It was 90 years ago, so no one alive was there at the time.  But is it possible that no one remembers it at all?

Granted, Ukraine’s oppression under Soviet rule from WWII to 1991 was no picnic, either.  And perhaps it is the combination of these two events which is motivating Ukraine’s spirited defense of their homeland against Russian invaders.  They appear to have a much more clear understanding of what Russia represents than, say, President Biden.  And honestly, they should.

While we seem to be minimizing the evil of Russian leadership, that in itself may be proof of just how consistently evil they are.  For example:

Imagine if 70 years ago, Germany had killed millions of Jews (which, of course, they did).  And then imagine that Germany invaded Israel today.  Can you imagine the press coverage?  Every Western news channel would run endless loops of Hitler speeches and Jews in concentration camps.  As they should.

But yet, here we are, with Russia invading Ukraine.  Again.  And there has been little to no discussion of Ukrainian suffering under Soviet occupation from 1956-1991, and no mention whatsoever of the butcher of the Holodomor, Lazar Kaganovich.  There are no screaming headlines of the evil of Putin, comparing him to Kaganovich (as the media would have compared Germany’s invasion of Israel to the Nazis).

No – It’s Russia.  I mean, c’mon.  This is just what they do, right?

Perhaps the media doesn’t bring up Kaganovich because they don’t have to.  The vicious tactics of Russia aren’t excused, exactly.  They’re just presumed.  After all, it’s Russia that we’re talking about here, right?  Perhaps.  But I really don’t think so.

I would feel better if we paid more attention to history.  Instead of reading story after story about how Putin feels about his progress in Ukraine this afternoon, perhaps we should be looking at this invasion as just a small part of a big picture.  This isn’t a shocking aberration.  It’s just another brick in the wall.

Putin may be unpredictable.  But Russia is not.  They even cheat in figure skating, for Pete’s sake.  Even when everybody knows they’re cheating, and they’ve already been suspended.  They lie, and they cheat.  After all, it’s Russia we’re talking about here, right?  Even Jimmy Carter figured this out.  Eventually.

But because so many in our media and our ruling class share Russia’s affinity for socialism, bureaucratic power, and other centralized control systems, they are hesitant to criticize Russia too harshly.  When your beliefs don’t make any sense, then hypocrisy becomes a cardinal sin.  Dissenting viewpoints become heresy when you know you’re on shaky ethical ground.  So criticism of Russia must be done gently.

Focus on the omelets, not the eggs.  Call Putin unpredictable.  But don’t call Russia a dangerous, dishonest, oppressive, imperialist power based on centralized control systems.  That just wouldn’t do.

This is just an understandable disagreement between some white dudes in Europe.  This is not evidence of the horrors of government power that American Democrats covet so openly.  Heavens no.  Golly, that Putin guy is so unpredictable.

Right.

Let’s fund Russia’s military by buying petroleum from them!  Great idea!  That way, we can pretend to believe in climate change, with no consequences!  Awesome!  Why not?  Russia’s just some other country, like Sweden or whatever, right?  What’s the worst that could happen?  Don’t listen to all those dead Ukrainians.  There’s fund-raising to do!

Understanding history can make seemingly complex decisions become more straightforward.

Many tyrants have openly acknowledged that you can’t control a country’s future without first controlling its history.  Islamists seek to control countries by destroying any ancient artifacts which don’t fit with Islam.  Putin just gave a speech claiming that his Russian ‘peacekeeping forces’ were merely attempting to free Ukraine from Nazi control (Ukraine’s Prime Minister is Jewish).  American leftists have been tearing down statues and renaming schools on a wholesale level.  All for the same reason.

You can’t control a country’s future without controlling its history.

And people wonder why those who love freedom are so upset about the historical revisionism of the left.  We should remember history.  Even the bad parts of it.

Especially the bad parts of it.

Our lives may depend on it.  Many, many, many other lives may depend on it, too.  Just ask a dead Ukrainian.

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  1. ToddMayo Coolidge
    ToddMayo
    @ToddMayo

    Thanks for posting this!  I had remembered small bits but could not recall the name, Lazar Kaganovich.  

    • #1
  2. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    ToddMayo (View Comment):

    Thanks for posting this! I had remembered small bits but could not recall the name, Lazar Kaganovich.

    Welcome aboard Todd!  Great to have you here!

    • #2
  3. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    • #3
  4. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    The Holodomor I remember. Lazar Kaganovich was a hole in my knowledge.

    • #4
  5. She Member
    She
    @She

    Dr. Bastiat: I would feel better if we paid more attention to history.

    Me Too.

    Dr. Bastiat: Putin may be unpredictable.  But Russia is not.  They even cheat in figure skating, for Pete’s sake.  Even when everybody knows they’re cheating, and they’ve already been suspended.  They lie, and they cheat.  After all, it’s Russia we’re talking about here, right?  Even Jimmy Carter figured this out.  Eventually.

    But we let them back into the Games, as if calling their athletes the “Russian Olympic Committee” (paging the “Washington Football Team”) removes the nasty smell, casts an aura of cleanliness and somehow sanitizes their ugly behavior. Rewarding bad behavior in this manner merely leads to more, as the parent of any toddler (and the human “mom” of any puppy–as I am finding out after almost 40 years since the last one) knows.

    Dr. Bastiat: But because so many in our media and our ruling class share Russia’s affinity for socialism, bureaucratic power, and other centralized control systems, they are hesitant to criticize Russia too harshly.

    That, and–I’m sorry to say–quite a few on the Right seem to think that there’s merit in claiming that the Ukrainians are really just Russians anyway, and that most of them would actually like to be taken over by Moscow.  I can’t help feeling these people are completely ignorant of the history lesson from the OP and that they think that blaming the victim somehow removes them from any responsibility to take an actual position on the matter.

    Dr. Bastiat: This is just an understandable disagreement between some white dudes in Europe.

    As above, I’m not sure that this is a uniquely left-wing perspective.

    This is not evidence of the horrors of government power that American Democrats covet so openly.  Heavens no.

    Now that’s more like it!

    Dr. Bastiat: Let’s fund Russia’s military by buying buying petroleum from them!  Great idea!  That way, we can pretend to believe in climate change, with no consequences!

    I think this is at the root of it.  All three Russian incursions (Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine) have occurred at times when Russia was riding high on the hog of inflated oil prices and when the coffers of the Kremlin were full.  When the per-barrel price of oil went down substantially, as it did during Trump’s tenure, I don’t think Vlad had the rubles to indulge in his vanity projects.

    Dr. Bastiat:

    You can’t control a country’s future with out controlling its history.

    And people wonder why those who love freedom are so upset about the historical revisionism of the left.  We should remember history.  Even the bad parts of it.

    And even when that history happened on the other side of the world.

    Dr. Bastiat: Our lives may depend on it.  Many, many, many other lives may depend on it, too.  Just ask a dead Ukrainian.

    Or even a dead Russian.

    Sunflower

    • #5
  6. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians. 

    • #6
  7. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Dr. Bastiat: But yet, here we are, with Russia invading Ukraine.  Again.  And there has been little to no discussion of Ukrainian suffering under Soviet occupation from 1956-1991, and no mention whatsoever of the butcher of the Holodomor, Lazar Kaganovich.  There are no screaming headlines of the evil of Putin, comparing him to Kaganovich (as the media would have compared Germany’s invasion of Israel to the Nazis). 

    The unmitigated gall of Putin trying to justify his invasion of Ukraine to “liberate the Ukrainians from their drug addled, Neo Nazi leaders” is breathtaking .

    Ukrainians are demonstrating a love of freedom and independence with their blood.  

    https://mobile.twitter.com/englishukraine/status/1497986717470580744

    • #7
  8. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    • #8
  9. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Kozak (View Comment):
    The unmitigated gall of Putin trying to justify his invasion of Ukraine to “liberate the Ukrainians from their drug addled, Neo Nazi leaders” is breathtaking .

    And the Russian media is reporting it as fact.

    You know a country has tyrannical tendencies when the media is simply the propaganda wing of the government.  Disgusting, huh?

    • #9
  10. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991.  Neither did Georgia. 

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here… 

    • #10
  11. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991. Neither did Georgia.

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here…

    My point has to do with ideology, communism, and not nationality, Russians.

    • #11
  12. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    I wonder if anyone even knows anything about the history of Ukraine.  I can’t say that I know much, but I sure seem to know a lot more than most people commenting, at least judging by their comments.

    People seem to think that Ukraine was independent until conquered by the Soviets or something — though I take this as implied, as it is rarely mentioned, but rather people often seem to refer to Stalin’s annexation of the Baltic states in 1940 in such circumstances, giving an impression that the situation in Ukraine is similar.

    Do you know when Kiev became a part of Russia?

    I had to look it up, though I knew that it was a very, very long time ago.  It looks like the answer is 1686.  Under Peter the Great.

    And there was no independent Ukraine before that.  Kiev was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    At that time, 1686, the Russians took northeastern Ukraine.  They got northwestern Ukraine during the three partitions of Poland, in the late 1700s/early 1800s. 

    Southern Ukraine, including Crimea, was actually part of the Ottoman Empire until the late 1700s, when it was conquered by Russia in a series of wars with the Turks.

    Russia took the bulk of the Baltic states, by the way, during the Great Northern War in the early 1700s.  From Sweden, by the way.  The Baltic states had not been independent.

    By 1812, the eve of Napoleon’s invasion, the following areas were all part of Russia: Finland; the Baltic States; Belorussia; eastern Poland; and Ukraine.

    So I think that we should remember this history.  Ukraine was part of Russia for 200-300 years, through 1991.  Why should the Russians accept that?  Did we accept it when South Carolina declared independence?

    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

     

    • #12
  13. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991. Neither did Georgia.

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here…

    My point has to do with ideology, communism, and not nationality, Russians.

    Ok.  I’m talking about Russia.  Not Russians.

    So I think we agree for the most part.

    • #13
  14. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    By the way, I have the impression that the Holodomor narrative is quite misleading.

    There’s a suggestion that it was a genocide aimed at the Ukrainians.  Strangely, though, it was part of a broader famine throughout the Soviet Union.  It doesn’t seem to have been aimed at the Ukrainians, as far as I can tell.

    Rather, it seems to have been the result of stupid Communist agricultural policies, which led to a widespread famine.  Food was taken from the countryside.

    Gee, why would Stalin do that?  For spite?  Or maybe to feed the cities, which is what was actually done, as far as I can tell.

    It appears that the same policies were implemented in Ukrainian, Russian, and other areas (including Kazakh areas).  So how is that ethnically motivated?  It looks more like a class motivation, targeting the “kulaks” — fairly prosperous farmers — for Communist political reasons.

    So if I’m correct about this — and I admit, perhaps I’m not — but if I am, then the entire “Holodomor” narrative is a false narrative created to stir up ethnic hatred between Ukrainians and Russians.  Which does seem to be how it is used.

    History is complicated, I think.

    • #14
  15. She Member
    She
    @She

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I wonder if anyone even knows anything about the history of Ukraine. I can’t say that I know much, but I sure seem to know a lot more than most people commenting, at least judging by their comments.

    People seem to think that Ukraine was independent until conquered by the Soviets or something — though I take this as implied, as it is rarely mentioned, but rather people often seem to refer to Stalin’s annexation of the Baltic states in 1940 in such circumstances, giving an impression that the situation in Ukraine is similar.

    Do you know when Kiev became a part of Russia?

    I had to look it up, though I knew that it was a very, very long time ago. It looks like the answer is 1686. Under Peter the Great.

    And there was no independent Ukraine before that. Kiev was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    At that time, 1686, the Russians took northeastern Ukraine. They got northwestern Ukraine during the three partitions of Poland, in the late 1700s/early 1800s.

    Southern Ukraine, including Crimea, was actually part of the Ottoman Empire until the late 1700s, when it was conquered by Russia in a series of wars with the Turks.

    Russia took the bulk of the Baltic states, by the way, during the Great Northern War in the early 1700s. From Sweden, by the way. The Baltic states had not been independent.

    By 1812, the eve of Napoleon’s invasion, the following areas were all part of Russia: Finland; the Baltic States; Belorussia; eastern Poland; and Ukraine.

    So I think that we should remember this history. Ukraine was part of Russia for 200-300 years, through 1991. Why should the Russians accept that? Did we accept it when South Carolina declared independence?

    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

    Jerry, at the risk of being accused of carrying conversation over from another thread, I’ll just refer you to something I said elsewhere (now that I’m proscribed by word limits too, and because your own words count against my total but I want to show them here), and say again that the idea that we must know so much history in order to justify our repetition of some of its more appalling aspects seems like a perversion of the oft-stated premise to me.

    Yes.  I know much of what you say here.

    None of it, as far as I can see, justifies the events of the last four days.

    • #15
  16. She Member
    She
    @She

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

    Big of them.  Wow.

    • #16
  17. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):
    The unmitigated gall of Putin trying to justify his invasion of Ukraine to “liberate the Ukrainians from their drug addled, Neo Nazi leaders” is breathtaking .

    And the Russian media is reporting it as fact.

    You know a country has tyrannical tendencies when the media is simply the propaganda wing of the government. Disgusting, huh?

    Right on!

    • #17
  18. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991. Neither did Georgia.

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here…

    My point has to do with ideology, communism, and not nationality, Russians.

    But after a while, when ideology, communism and Russian continue to come together, one begins to see a link.

    • #18
  19. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991. Neither did Georgia.

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here…

    My point has to do with ideology, communism, and not nationality, Russians.

    But after a while, when ideology, communism and Russian continue to come together, one begins to see a link.

    Yeah, the more you squint, the blurrier the lines get…

    • #19
  20. James Salerno Inactive
    James Salerno
    @JamesSalerno

    If we really want to understand history, we need to understand why things happen. I see a lot of condemnation of what Putin is doing, but nobody wants to address why he’s doing it. It’s 2003 all over again.

    Russia is not the USSR and Putin is not Stalin. I also don’t believe there is anything inherently evil or immoral about the Russian people. We should have welcomed them onto the world stage after 1991. In retrospect, I think that would have worked out far better for everyone. Russia would have been a far better choice than China.

    NATO was always designed to cripple Russia. We can argue the specifics, but there is no arguing that NATO is a Russian enemy. Saying things like NATO has “an open door policy for any nation” is ridiculously provocative. And we’ve had leaders saying things like that going back to the Clinton administration.

    This is Russia’s Cuban Missile Crisis. If China installed a pro-China government in Mexico and started putting missiles there, wouldn’t that scare the ever living redacted out of us?

    This doesn’t excuse Putin or any of the needless violence that’s coming out of this. And I need to stress NEEDLESS because that’s important. This was one of the easiest conflicts to avoid.

    Putin has been warning everyone about this for at least ten years. This gets lost on Americans – Putin is an actual man. He means what he says. I don’t mean you specifically Doc, but you’ve gotta admit we’ve been softened by our politicians. We have so many effete men and women in positions of power here. Trump was a brief return to masculinity, and everyone flipped out over it. We need to remember that the rest of the world doesn’t operate under progressivism. When a real man speaks we need to listen. This isn’t Trudeau or Macron we’re dealing with. 

    Also, to keep this tied to history, we need to remember that World War One started because of global alliances, NOT nationalism like the progressives tell us. Some guy got killed in Sarajevo in what should have just been chapter 83 of another Balkan War. A few years later, Germany is promising Mexico that it will help them take back US lands… wait a minute, whaaaaat?

    NATO is the “entangling alliance” that the founders warned us about. It’s also nothing new, Europe has been bouncing around globalist government ideas since Westphalia. Engangling alliances started the current war. It’s not “Russian nationalism” or any other boogeyman. Media says things like this because global progressivism is their Virgin Mary and it can never be criticized.

    Russia wants nothing to do with this. And our founders understood that Europe was a mess we needed to avoid. This also gets lost under progressive revisionism.

    I hope that two years from now, India isn’t threatening Turkmenistan with nukes in the name of Ukrainian democracy.

    • #20
  21. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    She (View Comment):

    Yes.  I know much of what you say here.

    None of it, as far as I can see, justifies the events of the last four days.

    I agree that it doesn’t justify the events of the last four days. But the rhetoric is also overblown and some simply untrue.

    N.B. Putin’s rhetoric for justifying the invasion,  i.e. drugs and Nazis, is ludicrous.

    • #21
  22. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    It works the way you’re seeing the Ukrainians resist the putin invasion.

     

    • #22
  23. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):
    Yeah, the more you squint, the blurrier the lines get

    Why? Russia is acting out of fear of having Nato missles on its border. WMDs. The US acted out of the same fear. I don’t justify either, but I also understand them. This is how Israel acts when it sees what it thinks is an existential crisis.

    This isn’t about mass genocide. This is just old-fashioned real-world international politics. 

    • #23
  24. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    She (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

    Big of them. Wow.

    Think Cuban Missile Crisis – in fact consider the US’ red lines in Latin America.

    • #24
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    James Salerno (View Comment):

    NATO is the “entangling alliance” that the founders warned us about. It’s also nothing new, Europe has been bouncing around globalist government ideas since Westphalia. Engangling alliances started the current war. It’s not “Russian nationalism” or any other boogeyman. Media says things like this because global progressivism is their Virgin Mary and it can never be criticized.

    Russia wants nothing to do with this. And our founders understood that Europe was a mess we needed to avoid. This also gets lost under progressive revisionism.

    Weirdly, Russia actually wanted to join NATO at one point.

    I hope that two years from now, India isn’t threatening Turkmenistan with nukes in the name of Ukrainian democracy.

    One can only hope.

    • #25
  26. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    The 17-year-old daughter of our host family in Dzerzhinsk told us her biggest fear was that the Russian people would vote the Soviets back in power.  Looks like they pretty much did . . .

    • #26
  27. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    It works the way you’re seeing the Ukrainians resist the putin invasion.

     

    Some are. Some are getting out of the war zone. My guess is most are staying where they live and hoping for it all to be over.

    • #27
  28. David Foster Member
    David Foster
    @DavidFoster

    James Salerno (View Comment):
    I also don’t believe there is anything inherently evil or immoral about the Russian people. We should have welcomed them onto the world stage after 1991.

    What specifically should we have done that we didn’t?

    • #28
  29. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot) Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patriot)
    @ArizonaPatriot

    She (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

    Big of them. Wow.

    This is precisely the policy of the United States toward every other country in the Western Hemisphere.  Since President Monroe.  Very close to 200 years now.

    It’s actually US policy toward a bunch of other countries, too.  Iran, for example, and Egypt, and Syria, and on and on. 

    We’re the country that launched unprovoked invasions and bombings of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya — and overthrew an elected government in Egypt that we didn’t like.  And plenty of others.

    It just seems like such rank hypocrisy, to me.  I don’t understand how other people don’t see it.  It is an occupational hazard of being a realist, I guess.

    • #29
  30. James Salerno Inactive
    James Salerno
    @JamesSalerno

    David Foster (View Comment):

    James Salerno (View Comment):
    I also don’t believe there is anything inherently evil or immoral about the Russian people. We should have welcomed them onto the world stage after 1991.

    What specifically should we have done that we didn’t?

    Not cripple them with sanctions like the Clinton administration did. Sanctions are acts of war.

    Made it clear that NATO would not move next to Russia’s borders. See my comment about “open door policy.” By that logic, NATO can give Mongolia membership? Or Malaysia? Come on…

    Not overthrow Ukraine’s democratically elected pro-Russian governments. Then whine about “defending democracy worldwide.”

    Kazakhstan, Belarus, Georgia also apply here. It doesn’t matter if you believe we were involved in those coups or not. Totally irrelevant. The optics matter. It sure looks like American NGO money was involved to anyone not viewing this through an American lens.

    Censoring that Hunter Biden laptop sure does look pretty stupid in retrospect.

    Not arming the Ukrainians. I don’t think this changes things either way, I just think it’s stupid policy. We gave Afghanistan tons of guns and that was a total waste. Ukraine isn’t beating Russia. That’s just reality. No amount of weapons we send will tip those scales. And if a country needs weapons gifted to them from a foreign power, what does that say about their stability? It’s bad policy, it’s more useless bloated spending, and it’s taxation without representation.

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