Millions of Dead Ukrainians Suggest That Ignoring History Is Dangerous

 

In reading about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, I’ve come across sources that mention Russia’s economy, Putin’s historical revisionism, Zelenskyy’s background as an actor, Russian military tactics, oil pipelines, Finland’s military might, and the complex history between Russia and Ukraine. But I am amazed that there is one name that I have not seen mentioned anywhere: Lazar Kaganovich.

In a strange twist of fate, I am friends (not close friends, but friends) with Mr. Kaganovich’s grandson.  Sort of a long story.  I’ve considered writing about that.  But not today.  Regardless, as most of you know, Mr. Kaganovich was born to a Yiddish-speaking Jewish family in what is now Ukraine, became one of Joseph Stalin’s most trusted friends, and ended up being the leader of the Ukrainian genocide (the Holodomor famine) which killed 3-4 million Ukrainians under absolutely brutal conditions. He is remembered as one of Stalin’s most vicious henchmen.  Although my friend remembers him as a kind, doting grandfather.  Wow.  Anyway…

Ten years ago, I befriended a woman who moved to Tennessee from Ukraine with her junior high school daughter (who was in my daughter’s class – they became best friends).  I mentioned that I knew Kaganovich’s grandson, and my friend was shocked, but her daughter had no idea who he was.  She went to school in Ukraine until age 14, and had never heard of Kaganovich, who was responsible for the deaths of many in her family.  I wonder how many Ukrainians are unaware of this period of their history?  It was 90 years ago, so no one alive was there at the time.  But is it possible that no one remembers it at all?

Granted, Ukraine’s oppression under Soviet rule from WWII to 1991 was no picnic, either.  And perhaps it is the combination of these two events which is motivating Ukraine’s spirited defense of their homeland against Russian invaders.  They appear to have a much more clear understanding of what Russia represents than, say, President Biden.  And honestly, they should.

While we seem to be minimizing the evil of Russian leadership, that in itself may be proof of just how consistently evil they are.  For example:

Imagine if 70 years ago, Germany had killed millions of Jews (which, of course, they did).  And then imagine that Germany invaded Israel today.  Can you imagine the press coverage?  Every Western news channel would run endless loops of Hitler speeches and Jews in concentration camps.  As they should.

But yet, here we are, with Russia invading Ukraine.  Again.  And there has been little to no discussion of Ukrainian suffering under Soviet occupation from 1956-1991, and no mention whatsoever of the butcher of the Holodomor, Lazar Kaganovich.  There are no screaming headlines of the evil of Putin, comparing him to Kaganovich (as the media would have compared Germany’s invasion of Israel to the Nazis).

No – It’s Russia.  I mean, c’mon.  This is just what they do, right?

Perhaps the media doesn’t bring up Kaganovich because they don’t have to.  The vicious tactics of Russia aren’t excused, exactly.  They’re just presumed.  After all, it’s Russia that we’re talking about here, right?  Perhaps.  But I really don’t think so.

I would feel better if we paid more attention to history.  Instead of reading story after story about how Putin feels about his progress in Ukraine this afternoon, perhaps we should be looking at this invasion as just a small part of a big picture.  This isn’t a shocking aberration.  It’s just another brick in the wall.

Putin may be unpredictable.  But Russia is not.  They even cheat in figure skating, for Pete’s sake.  Even when everybody knows they’re cheating, and they’ve already been suspended.  They lie, and they cheat.  After all, it’s Russia we’re talking about here, right?  Even Jimmy Carter figured this out.  Eventually.

But because so many in our media and our ruling class share Russia’s affinity for socialism, bureaucratic power, and other centralized control systems, they are hesitant to criticize Russia too harshly.  When your beliefs don’t make any sense, then hypocrisy becomes a cardinal sin.  Dissenting viewpoints become heresy when you know you’re on shaky ethical ground.  So criticism of Russia must be done gently.

Focus on the omelets, not the eggs.  Call Putin unpredictable.  But don’t call Russia a dangerous, dishonest, oppressive, imperialist power based on centralized control systems.  That just wouldn’t do.

This is just an understandable disagreement between some white dudes in Europe.  This is not evidence of the horrors of government power that American Democrats covet so openly.  Heavens no.  Golly, that Putin guy is so unpredictable.

Right.

Let’s fund Russia’s military by buying petroleum from them!  Great idea!  That way, we can pretend to believe in climate change, with no consequences!  Awesome!  Why not?  Russia’s just some other country, like Sweden or whatever, right?  What’s the worst that could happen?  Don’t listen to all those dead Ukrainians.  There’s fund-raising to do!

Understanding history can make seemingly complex decisions become more straightforward.

Many tyrants have openly acknowledged that you can’t control a country’s future without first controlling its history.  Islamists seek to control countries by destroying any ancient artifacts which don’t fit with Islam.  Putin just gave a speech claiming that his Russian ‘peacekeeping forces’ were merely attempting to free Ukraine from Nazi control (Ukraine’s Prime Minister is Jewish).  American leftists have been tearing down statues and renaming schools on a wholesale level.  All for the same reason.

You can’t control a country’s future without controlling its history.

And people wonder why those who love freedom are so upset about the historical revisionism of the left.  We should remember history.  Even the bad parts of it.

Especially the bad parts of it.

Our lives may depend on it.  Many, many, many other lives may depend on it, too.  Just ask a dead Ukrainian.

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  1. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    philo (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    We’re the country that launched unprovoked invasions and bombings of Afghanistan, Iraq,

    Afghanistan and (to a far lesser but still existent extent) Iraq were provoked.

    Honestly, your parenthetical is not needed at all. The charge that it was unprovoked is crap…Iraq had been “provoking” almost daily for over a decade:

    Now, we can debate all day long whether it was right or even smart (I’m willing to push back against 77 Senators and 296 Representatives…you know, people not useful enough for any real gainful employment so the turned to crime) but claiming “unprovoked” seems quite ignorant.

    Exactly so. 

    • #61
  2. DonG (Keep on Truckin) Coolidge
    DonG (Keep on Truckin)
    @DonG

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Maybe, I don’t know if Russia would just leave their neighbors the F##k alone for 50 years, maybe they wouldn’t be so jumpy.

    Question for you @kozak, since you know the people well, is it possible that Ukraine can be a better more prosperous country by letting the eastern 25% of the oblasts become “independent”?   I feel like the ongoing civil war in the east has hurt capital investment and general prosperity.  The territorial dispute prevents them joining NATO, which would provide them long-term security.  Stability might also allow for cracking down on corruption, so the peoples money stays in Ukraine instead of piling up in some London bank account.   Is 75% of a stable Ukraine better for the people than 100% of an unstable Ukraine?     Belarus is voting on whether to allow Russian nuclear missile deployments this week.

    • #62
  3. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Dr. Bastiat:

    Putin may be unpredictable. But Russia is not. They even cheat in figure skating, for Pete’s sake. Even when everybody knows they’re cheating, and they’ve already been suspended. They lie, and they cheat. After all, it’s Russia we’re talking about here, right? Even Jimmy Carter figured this out. Eventually.

    I think there is a cultural thing about cheating in Russia that is not fully comprehended by people who live in the West.

    I have a good friend who is a well-known Russian Chess Grandmaster who immigrated to the U.S. shortly after the collapse of Communism in the USSR.  I won’t use his real name.  Let’s just call him Igor. One night during a formal chess lecture he was giving to me and a number of my chess-playing friends, he related the following story:

    Back in the old Soviet Union he had been studying with former World Chess Champion Mikhail Tal.  They studied a particular opening variation with a number of complex moves which were difficult to memorize.  Tal was due to compete in a team championship against the young Gary Kasparov who had not yet become World Champion, but was nonetheless the fastest rising Soviet chess grandmaster.  Igor attended the event that was played in a vast hall with spectator seats around the central floor where team members played their games, kind of like  a hockey or basketball arena. 

    Tal’s game progressed with Kasparov along the exact lines of the opening variation he had been studying with Igor.  At some point, a messenger frantically approached Igor who was sitting up in the stands and said “Tal needs you. Come quickly.”  He went to meet Tal, who had left his board onstage while awaiting  Kasparov’s next  move, at a secret location.  Tal blurted to Igor “I can’t remember what I’m supposed to play if Kasparov finds the key move!” Igor refreshed his memory of the tricky variation and Tal ran back to the board and finished the game, which eventually ended in a draw.

    This of course is highly unethical and would get you a suspension if not an outright ban from the International Chess Federation if discovered.  My friend Igor treated it as if it was just business as usual in the Soviet Union. I read an account by Victor Korchnoy, another Soviet Grandmaster, who watched the wife of yet another ex-Soviet World Champion, give secret advice from her husband to an obscure Yugoslavian player during a game in order to beat Bobby Fisher in a notoriously famous game.  Stories abound like this in the chess world of the old Soviet Union.

    • #63
  4. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Kozak (View Comment):

    My parents were DP’s in Austria when WW2 ended. Just miles from the Soviet zone of occupation, liberated by Patton.

    They had spent the last 3 years fleeing West to escape the Red Army, and in fact were due to transit Dresden the night of the firebombing, but their train was sidetracked just outside of the city and they watched the firebombing, our way of showing “Uncle Joe” what good little allies we were.

    My former landlord and his family fortunately left on the last train out of Dresden before the bombing started.  He was five years old at the time and they were there by way of Lithuania.

     

    • #64
  5. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    There’s a suggestion that it was a genocide aimed at the Ukrainians. Strangely, though, it was part of a broader famine throughout the Soviet Union. It doesn’t seem to have been aimed at the Ukrainians, as far as I can tell.

    Rather, it seems to have been the result of stupid Communist agricultural policies, which led to a widespread famine. Food was taken from the countryside.

    Walter Duranty would be proud of you

    “At the height of the Holodomor in June of 1933, Ukrainians were dying at a rate of 28,000 people per day. Around 3.9 million Ukrainians died during the Holodomor of 1932-33 (as established in a 2015 study by a team of demographers from the Ukrainian Institute of Demographic and Social Studies, and the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill).

    While Ukrainians were dying, the Soviet state extracted 4.27 million tons of grain from Ukraine in 1932, enough to feed at least 12 million people for an entire year. Soviet records show that in January of 1933, there were enough grain reserves in the USSR to feed well over 10 million people. The government could have organized famine relief and could have accepted help from outside of the USSR. Moscow rejected foreign aid and denounced those who offered it, instead exporting Ukraine’s grain and other foodstuffs abroad for cash.

    Most historians, who have studied this period in Ukrainian history, have concluded that the Famine was deliberate and linked to a broader Soviet policy to subjugate the Ukrainian people. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of Soviet government archives (including archives of the security services), researchers have been able to demonstrate that Soviet authorities undertook measures specifically in Ukraine with the knowledge that the result would be the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by starvation.

    “The Terror-Famine of 1932-33 was a dual-purpose by-product of collectivization, designed to suppress Ukrainian nationalism and the most important concentration of prosperous peasants at one throw”

     

    “Stupid agricultural policy?”

    They were starving millions while exporting grain for hard currency, and just “coincidentally” causing the deaths of 4 million “troublesome” Ukrainians who wouldn’t just be good little kolhospnicks.

     

    Exactly. Holodomor didn’t happen because of a widespread drought. It happened because the Ukrainians resisted collectivization, and the Soviets confiscated their grain supplies. 

    • #65
  6. James Salerno Inactive
    James Salerno
    @JamesSalerno

    Mayor John Tory, of Toronto, marched in a pro-Ukraine demonstration in Toronto. A very large one. Yes, the very same Toronto. Toronto, Canada.

    Remember the phony story that Russians were paying the Taliban for bounties on US soldiers?

    Lots of marionette strings in plain sight.

    Everyone needs to set their BS detectors on full alert for the coming storm. It is not “anti-American” or “anti-liberty” to exercise critical thinking. But you’ll be demonized by all sides if you do.

    • #66
  7. Headedwest Coolidge
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Though I think that the Russians were willing to live with Ukrainian independence, as long as Ukraine remained reasonably friendly to Russia and didn’t try to join a US-backed military alliance aimed at Russia.

    Big of them. Wow.

    This is precisely the policy of the United States toward every other country in the Western Hemisphere. Since President Monroe. Very close to 200 years now.

    It’s actually US policy toward a bunch of other countries, too. Iran, for example, and Egypt, and Syria, and on and on.

    We’re the country that launched unprovoked invasions and bombings of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya — and overthrew an elected government in Egypt that we didn’t like. And plenty of others.

    It just seems like such rank hypocrisy, to me. I don’t understand how other people don’t see it. It is an occupational hazard of being a realist, I guess.

    Keep telling yourself that you’re a realist.

    • #67
  8. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I wonder if anyone even knows anything about the history of Ukraine.  I can’t say that I know much, but I sure seem to know a lot more than most people commenting, at least judging by their comments.

    People seem to think that Ukraine was independent

    Perhaps the salient point is that the Ukrainians believe they are, and prefer sovereignty to subjugation and absorption. 

    By the way, I have the impression that the Holodomor narrative is quite misleading.

    There’s a suggestion that it was a genocide aimed at the Ukrainians.  Strangely, though, it was part of a broader famine throughout the Soviet Union.  It doesn’t seem to have been aimed at the Ukrainians, as far as I can tell.

    Leaving aside debate about that particular assertion, consider this: the famine is part of the Ukrainian historical psyche, and therefore as valid a motiving force as all the various psychodramas people cite to explain, and frequently justify, Russian behavior. 

    • #68
  9. Danny Alexander Member
    Danny Alexander
    @DannyAlexander

    To me at least, pragmatism seems in weirdly short supply on this thread.

    (Not realism, however defined — pragmatism.)

    So here you go…:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/ukraines-deadly-gamble

     

    • #69
  10. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    So Ukrainians should fear Russians because a Ukrainian Jew was the architect of the Holodomor? How does that work?

     

    The Ukrainians should fear anyone working for the Russians.

    And atop the pyramid was Stalin, a Georgian. So again, how does this work for fearing Russians?

    Ukraine didn’t oppress Ukraine from 1945 – 1991. Neither did Georgia.

    Russia did.

    I get the feeling that I may be missing your point, here…

    My point has to do with ideology, communism, and not nationality, Russians.

    But after a while, when ideology, communism and Russian continue to come together, one begins to see a link.

    Yeah, the more you squint, the blurrier the lines get…

    Lazar Kaganovich almost certainly considered himself a Russian Communist, not a Ukrainian Jew.

    Stalin didn’t know the future.  For all he knew, he was going to be facing a revolutionary tribunal in six months.  For this reason, according to Arkady Vaksberg in Stalin Against the Jews, Stalin liked to assign “Jews” to carry out his worst atrocities, in case he ever needed scapegoats to blame.

    Of course Communism leads to invasions, atrocities, and mass murder; but let’s remember that Russia was invading and oppressing its neighbors — Ukraine, Poland, Finland, and several countries in Central Asia — for centuries before the Communists took over.  Russia literally learned its politics and foreign policy during generations of Mongol rule.

     

     

    • #70
  11. Danny Alexander Member
    Danny Alexander
    @DannyAlexander

    #70 @taras

    “Russia literally learned its politics and foreign policy during generations of Mongol rule.”

    That’s as may be.

    But Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics, heck even the Swedes who had the Baltics wrested away from them by Russia in the early 1700s — all of them displayed a remarkable self-sufficiency in learning and honing their respective capacities and appetites for mass murder and oppression of their Jews.  Who themselves were never even remotely invaders or oppressors.

    Existential legitimacy — even under the oppressive yokes of all these countries/peoples — was denied at almost every turn.  Viewed through this lens, various instances of post-Warsaw-Pact clamoring for political sovereignty look like luxury.

    And to the extent that there’s never been any accountability exacted for this that isn’t a sad joke, there’s yet to be (and probably never will be) anything approaching historical closure for the surviving remnant.

     

     

    • #71
  12. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    James Salerno (View Comment

    […]

    NATO was always designed to cripple Russia. We can argue the specifics, but there is no arguing that NATO is a Russian enemy. Saying things like NATO has “an open door policy for any nation” is ridiculously provocative. And we’ve had leaders saying things like that going back to the Clinton administration.

    This is Russia’s Cuban Missile Crisis. If China installed a pro-China government in Mexico and started putting missiles there, wouldn’t that scare the ever living redacted out of us?

    […]

    Putin has been warning everyone about this for at least ten years. This gets lost on Americans – Putin is an actual man. He means what he says. […] When a real man speaks we need to listen. This isn’t Trudeau or Macron we’re dealing with.

    […]

    NATO is the “entangling alliance” that the founders warned us about. It’s also nothing new, Europe has been bouncing around globalist government ideas since Westphalia. Engangling alliances started the current war. It’s not “Russian nationalism” or any other boogeyman. Media says things like this because global progressivism is their Virgin Mary and it can never be criticized.

    Russia wants nothing to do with this. And our founders understood that Europe was a mess we needed to avoid. This also gets lost under progressive revisionism.

    I hope that two years from now, India isn’t threatening Turkmenistan with nukes in the name of Ukrainian democracy.

    ******Salerno ends*******

    “NATO was always designed to cripple Russia.”  Only in the fantasy world of Russian propaganda.

    With the Soviets occupying half of Europe already, after the war the Soviets helped Hitler start,  NATO was a desperate ploy to deter the Soviets from occupying the other half as well.  Without the US and its allies standing in the way, there was no way to stop the Soviets from completing the dream of their forefathers, the Mongols, and marching all the way to the Atlantic.

    “This is Russia’s Cuban Missile Crisis.”  I am unaware that any nuclear missiles were installed in Ukraine.  In fact, Ukraine handed over its nuclear weapons to Russia in 1994, in return for absolute assurances from Russia and the US that its borders would be respected.  To paraphrase Animal House, “Ukraine screwed up: they trusted us!”

    ”Putin is an actual man. … When a real man speaks we need to listen.”  Those of us who are not turned on by Putin’s bare chest recognize that he’s a man, but a man who lies all the time.  (See Minsk Accords.)

    “Entangling alliances started the current war.”  Rather, if Ukraine had been admitted to NATO sooner, there would be no war.  What we are seeing now is that, when NATO isn’t on his border, Putin moves up his border until it is.

    • #72
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Taras (View Comment):
    “Entangling alliances started the current war.”  Rather, if Ukraine had been admitted to NATO sooner, there would be no war.  What we are seeing now is that, when NATO isn’t on his border, Putin moves up his border until it is.

    And then he declares that NATO on his border is a threat, so he has to keep going…

    • #73
  14. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Danny Alexander (View Comment):

    #70 @ taras

    “Russia literally learned its politics and foreign policy during generations of Mongol rule.”

    That’s as may be.

    But Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics, heck even the Swedes who had the Baltics wrested away from them by Russia in the early 1700s — all of them displayed a remarkable self-sufficiency in learning and honing their respective capacities and appetites for mass murder and oppression of their Jews. Who themselves were never even remotely invaders or oppressors.

    Existential legitimacy — even under the oppressive yokes of all these countries/peoples — was denied at almost every turn. Viewed through this lens, various instances of post-Warsaw-Pact clamoring for political sovereignty look like luxury.

    And to the extent that there’s never been any accountability exacted for this that isn’t a sad joke, there’s yet to be (and probably never will be) anything approaching historical closure for the surviving remnant.

    In Thomas Sowell’s Black Rednecks and White Liberals, there’s a long chapter about “middleman minorities” — Jews in Europe, Armenians in the Turkish Empire, Indians in East Africa, and many others — whose untraditional way of making a living, as well as their relative success, often leave less-skilled majority populations believing the minority is cheating them somehow.  (Note black attacks on Asians in urban areas.)

    This sort of thing has often led to persecution. But let’s always remember that the Holocaust didn’t start in various European countries until the Nazis arrived.

    Also, Stalin’s predilection to make Jews scapegoats for his dirty work, as I’ve described elsewhere, didn’t help.   For example, it was where the wounds were most raw, in the Baltic states, that indigenous support for the Holocaust was highest, of all Nazi-occupied countries.  The Soviet occupation and rape of the Baltic states lasted less than a year before the Nazis swept in.

    • #74
  15. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    MiMac (View Comment):
    All these claims that X years ago Y was part of Z therefore Z has rights to it is TOTAL GARBAGE-the picking of a particular year is arbitrary. Ukraine has been independent long enough to exist on its own terms-not to mention it was specifically recognized as such by RUSSIA in 1994. As an example- the Palestinians claim they own Israel b/c in 1947 it was theirs- why 1947? Why not 1917 & give it to Turkey?[I will leave those evil colonists the Brits out of it] Why not 1400 & give it to the Egyptians? Why not 1200 and find some old Southern Italian or French guy and make him king? Heck the Greeks & Romans want it too…don’t get me started with the possible Arab or Persian claims-and those Canaanities or Philistines fuggidaboutit

    Why not 1000 B.C. and give it to… Israel.

    • #75
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Danny Alexander (View Comment):

    To me at least, pragmatism seems in weirdly short supply on this thread.

    (Not realism, however defined — pragmatism.)

    So here you go…:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/ukraines-deadly-gamble

    They were between a rock and a hard place.

    • #76
  17. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Let’s compare.

    The Soviet theft of grain from Ukrainian farmers, for hard cash to support their tyrannical endeavors, thus causing mass starvation.

    Recent tactics of lawfare, sanctions, debanking, censorship, deplatforming and mandates lobbed at dissidents worldwide.

    Aren’t these a continuation of the same tactics, applied across geographical borders, to anyone who won’t submit to the prevailing flavor of tyranny, in any given neighborhood?

    These evils are not limited to Soviets, Russians, Iranians, to name a few. These are also present in our USA, and Canadian homelands.

    Tyranny, is always encroaching, worldwide, Putin in Ukraine is just one more brick in the wall.

    What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

    ~Ecclesiastes 1:9

     

    The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

    ~Jeremiah 17:9

     

    • #77
  18. davenr321 Coolidge
    davenr321
    @davenr321

    I saw no mention of the Khazars, Alexander Nevsky, the conquering of the Siberian Khanate, or Rudyard Kipling’s “Kim” in this awesome discussion. 

    I think there should be.

     

     

    • #78
  19. Paul Stinchfield Member
    Paul Stinchfield
    @PaulStinchfield

    Taras (View Comment):
    Stalin didn’t know the future.  For all he knew, he was going to be facing a revolutionary tribunal in six months.  For this reason, according to Arkady Vaksberg in Stalin Against the Jews, Stalin liked to assign “Jews” to carry out his worst atrocities, in case he ever needed scapegoats to blame.

    It is a historically common practice for tyrants to use minorities in such ways.

    • #79
  20. Sandy Member
    Sandy
    @Sandy

    Danny Alexander (View Comment):

    To me at least, pragmatism seems in weirdly short supply on this thread.

    (Not realism, however defined — pragmatism.)

    So here you go…:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/ukraines-deadly-gamble

     

    Outstanding analysis by Lee Smith.  

     

    • #80
  21. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Jon Gabriel, Ed. (View Comment):
    Also, I’m wondering if a lot of the Ukrainians were resettled in Canada. I know they have a huge expat community up there.

    My uncles and grandparents were settled in Canada.  I spent every summer in Windsor ” Canada’s sun porch”, also referred to as “America’s back porch”.  When I was growing up, Ukrainians were the 3rd most populous demographic in Canada.   Lots of Ukrainians who couldn’t get visa’s to the US went to Canada. Along with the UK, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand.

    My parents originally couldn’t get a US sponsor ( you needed one to get into the US at that time).  So they were scheduled to emigrate from Austria to Algeria.  Man what a turn my life would have taken in that case….

    • #81
  22. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Unsk (View Comment):

    By the way, I had an elderly tenant years ago who told me in a story like the others that he and his parents fled the Ukraine in the time between when the Germans were retreating from the Ukraine and the Soviets were advancing on it.  He spent a few years in the camps and then came to America. 

    My parents were in the Romanian part of Bucovina.  When the Ribbentrop pact was signed they were suddenly part of the USSR.  My dad was a Ukrainian nationalist, and said ” well I hate the Communists, but we are at least part of Ukraine now.”  He was an engineer. Was assigned to design an electric motor.  When given the specifications he told them, ” it’s impossible to make a motor to these specifications. Can’t be done.”  He was denounced and  labeled a “wrecker”, and expected to be sent to Siberia or killed at any day.  Fortunately, ( funny huh?)  Hitler invaded the USSR and my parents ended up in Germany for the rest of the war.  They were in the East, and spent the rest of the war avoiding “liberation” by the Red Army.

    • #82
  23. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Most Americans can have no idea of what Ukraine, and Ukrainians have been through in the last century or so.

    Starting with the First World War with 4 years of fighting much of it on Ukrainian soil.

    Brief independence.  Followed by reconquest during the Civil War by the Red Army. Famine in the 1920’s.

    Collectivization and the Holodomor in the 1930’s along with Stalins Great Purge.

    World War Two and invasion and destruction as the Germans advanced and the Soviets executed a scorched earth policy in retreat.  The reconquest by the Red Army with the Germans destroying anything that was left as they retreated.

    More purges and 40 years of soul crushing Soviet Communism.

    Including Chernobyl and the poisoning of large tracts of Ukraine and its people.

    Finally the collapse of the Evil Empire and finally Independence.  

    And still there’s the damn Russian Bear, over their shoulder, interfering in their nation and nibbling away since 2014 at killing thousands,  and now trying to snuff out their moment of freedom.

    All they want is some peace and a chance for their children not to suffer as they, their parents and grandparents have suffered.

    If Russia stops fighting, the war will end.

    If Ukraine stops fighting Ukraine will end.

     

     

    • #83
  24. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Unsk (View Comment):
    By the way, I had an elderly tenant years ago who told me in a story like the others that he and his parents fled the Ukraine in the time between when the Germans were retreating from the Ukraine and the Soviets were advancing on it.  He spent a few years in the camps and then came to America. 

    When my parents were fleeing the East they traveled through Slovakia. The locals said, “why are going with the Germans when the Russians are coming to free us!”  My parents told them, “you have no idea what is coming your way.”

    • #84
  25. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    DonG (Keep on Truckin) (View Comment):
    Question for you @kozak, since you know the people well, is it possible that Ukraine can be a better more prosperous country by letting the eastern 25% of the oblasts become “independent”?   I feel like the ongoing civil war in the east has hurt capital investment and general prosperity. 

    Where does this stop?  First it was Crimea. Then Donbas and Luhansk. Both areas rich in industry and natural resources, and still full of Ukrainians who don’t want to be part of a Russian puppet state. You will note that as of now no major Ukrainian city, (Kharkov way East in Donbas is the second largest city), are still in Ukrainian hands.   Next it will be Odessa and the Black Sea coast.  No. If the separatists want to live in Russia, they just need to walk East.

    Oh yeah. And Baltic nations take note.  The Soviet Union intentionally mixed nationalities and moved borders to create these exact problems.  Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have sizable Russian ethnic minorities.  Putin has already made noises about not “mistreating them”.  

    Ultimately,  realistically, it may come to that, with Ukraine making territorial concessions.  But one can hope at this point it won’t come to that. Hopefully Saint Javelin will help save Ukraine.

    • #85
  26. She Member
    She
    @She

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Unsk (View Comment):
    By the way, I had an elderly tenant years ago who told me in a story like the others that he and his parents fled the Ukraine in the time between when the Germans were retreating from the Ukraine and the Soviets were advancing on it. He spent a few years in the camps and then came to America.

    When my parents were fleeing the East they traveled through Slovakia. The locals said, “why are going with the Germans when the Russians are coming to free us!” My parents told them, “you have no idea what is coming your way.”

    Yes. This was the experience of my Hungarian friend. 

    • #86
  27. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    We’re the country that launched unprovoked invasions and bombings of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Libya — and overthrew an elected government in Egypt that we didn’t like.  And plenty of others.

    “Unprovoked”?  I’ll assume that this gets massaged later in the thread…

    • #87
  28. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    All these claims that X years ago Y was part of Z therefore Z has rights to it is TOTAL GARBAGE-the picking of a particular year is arbitrary. Ukraine has been independent long enough to exist on its own terms-not to mention it was specifically recognized as such by RUSSIA in 1994. As an example- the Palestinians claim they own Israel b/c in 1947 it was theirs- why 1947? Why not 1917 & give it to Turkey?[I will leave those evil colonists the Brits out of it] Why not 1400 & give it to the Egyptians? Why not 1200 and find some old Southern Italian or French guy and make him king? Heck the Greeks & Romans want it too…don’t get me started with the possible Arab or Persian claims-and those Canaanities or Philistines fuggidaboutit

    Why not 1000 B.C. and give it to… Israel.

    Sold!

    • #88
  29. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    All these claims that X years ago Y was part of Z therefore Z has rights to it is TOTAL GARBAGE-the picking of a particular year is arbitrary. Ukraine has been independent long enough to exist on its own terms-not to mention it was specifically recognized as such by RUSSIA in 1994. As an example- the Palestinians claim they own Israel b/c in 1947 it was theirs- why 1947? Why not 1917 & give it to Turkey?[I will leave those evil colonists the Brits out of it] Why not 1400 & give it to the Egyptians? Why not 1200 and find some old Southern Italian or French guy and make him king? Heck the Greeks & Romans want it too…don’t get me started with the possible Arab or Persian claims-and those Canaanities or Philistines fuggidaboutit

    Why not 1000 B.C. and give it to… Israel.

    Sold!

    The Canaanite delegation objects…

    • #89
  30. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Taras (View Comment):
    With the Soviets occupying half of Europe already, after the war the Soviets helped Hitler start,  NATO was a desperate ploy to deter the Soviets from occupying the other half as well.  Without the US and its allies standing in the way, there was no way to stop the Soviets from completing the dream of their forefathers, the Mongols, and marching all the way to the Atlantic.

    The USSR’s behavior immediately after World War II was all anyone would ever need to see to realize that it had gotten cocky and belligerent. Only a fool would have ignored it. The U.S. Democrats saw it but didn’t care.

    The “victims of Yalta” is a truly horrifying story:

    Victims of Yalta (British title) or The Secret Betrayal (American title) is a 1977 book by Nikolai Tolstoy that chronicles the fate of Soviet citizens who had been under German control during World War II and at its end fallen into the hands of the Western Allies. According to the secret Moscow agreement from 1944 that was confirmed at the 1945 Yalta conference, all citizens of the Soviet Union were to be repatriated without choice—a death sentence for many by execution or extermination through labour.

    The behavior of the allies after World War II is stupefying. What they did to the fourth ally, Chiang Kai-shek, is impossible to understand. We blame Mao for the millions and millions of people who died under the Chinese communists, but some of that is the allies’ fault. The allies promised Chiang Kai-shek that they would help him defeat Mao after the war. but instead they walked away.

    And we never learn. We just broke our promises again, this time to the Afghan people.

    There is something wrong with our geopolitical systems that we need to fix.

     

    • #90
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