Canceling God: Hanukkah and Cancel Culture

 

Perhaps no other story so perfectly epitomizes the fight for freedom of worship than the story of Hanukkah. Though celebrated by the Jewish people for centuries, this story cannot be found in our Bibles. In fact, it occurred in the years between the testaments, but its significance to both Jews and to Christians cannot be underestimated.

The heroic efforts of the Jewish family known to us as the Maccabees literally saved the Temple in Jerusalem and the right of the Jewish people to worship their God. If not for the willingness of these warriors to stand against an evil tyrant, the circumstances would not have existed for a baby to be born in a stable to a devout Jewish family, circumcised on the eighth day as required by Torah law, and raised in a Torah-observant manner that qualified him to be the perfect sinless sacrifice for very sinful people.

The enemies of God, both spiritual and physical, know that God must be canceled and that the best way to accomplish this is to cancel His word, which is ultimate truth, and to cancel a people group dedicated to representing Him on this earth. The story of Hanukkah was not the first time that the enemies of God tried to cancel Him, and it is certainly not the last. We are living in a time when cancel culture has been intensifying exponentially. Make no mistake about it, cancel culture in the United States is not about canceling misogyny, racism, colonialism, homophobia, or even hate. It is about canceling God. 

The United States is the only nation in the history of the world that was founded on Judeo-Christian foundations — these foundations include the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They include freedom of speech, freedom to worship in the manner you see fit, freedom to defend yourself, limited government— basically most of what is set forth in our founding documents. Our founders turned to God’s word, both the older and the newer testaments when establishing our nation. We have been a nation that, up until very recently, has defined itself as a Judeo-Christian nation that worshipped the God of Israel. Any attempt to cancel the foundations that our nation was built on is an attempt to cancel God.  If we don’t recognize the ancient spiritual nature of our battle, we cannot fight it. I believe that in order to stand against these destructive spiritual forces, we can learn much from the powerful historical account of the story of Hanukkah. 

Much of what we know about Hanukkah is recorded in the writings of Flavius Josephus, a first-century Roman-Jewish historian.  As a thoughtful exercise in comparisons, I am going to use quotes from Josephus’ writings to identify themes of cancel culture that existed well over 2,000 years ago and still persist to this day. I have identified the quotes of Josephus by underlining them. By no means will I cover all of the points of similarity. I welcome readers’ feedback in identifying other relevant comparisons.   

The story of Hanukkah is set in 167 BCE after the death of Alexander the Great who conquered the lands of the kings of Media-Persia. He ruled the world for 12 years and upon his deathbed, he divided his kingdom among four of his generals. These generals and their descendants each ruled a part of the great Greek empire.

A descendant of one of these generals was named Antiochus Epiphanies, the King of Syria. The realm of this particular king included Judea– Israel. Interestingly, Antiochus Epiphanes is not an actual name. It is a title that means “God Manifested.” Keeping this title in mind is critical for understanding the goals and objectives of tyrants like Antiochus.

The goal of King Antiochus was not just military; his goal was also to conquer cultures–to impose the Greek culture upon all nations in his realm.  He wanted unity in his kingdom and required that everyone give up their traditions and adopt a Greek way of life. Many conquered nations fell in line with the Greek culture. Even in Judea, there were many Jews who wanted to adopt the Greek culture. 

Josephus: Thus, they desired his (The King’s ) permission to build them a Gymnasium at Jerusalem. (A Gymnasium was a place where people exercised naked.) And when he had given them leave, they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that even when they were naked they might appear to be Greek. “Accordingly, they left off all the customs that belonged to their country and imitated the practices of the other nations. “

Many Jews were more than willing to assimilate into the Greek culture–even to the point of engaging in medical procedures to “hide” their circumcision. That was intense assimilation. There is no more effective way to cancel an entire culture, an entire people group, than through assimilation. It is generally much easier and less messy than physical force, although often when assimilation doesn’t work, physical force is used.  The history of the Jewish people is one of either persecution for remaining a separate and set apart people or “relative” peace by assimilating– getting swallowed up by their “host” nation.  

But remember, God called Israel to be a separate and holy nation unto Himself. In Hebrew, “holy” means “to be set apart.” Their set-apartness was part of God’s plan to redeem the entire world. They were not to assimilate. If they become just one of the other nations, it would be impossible for them to be a light to these nations. 

Similarly, we as God’s people are not to assimilate into the world. We are not to forsake our God-given “culture” in order to fit in with the rest of the world or even for the purpose of avoiding persecution. 

Today, we are facing these same pressures to assimilate. Adopting the behaviors of a dominant or coercive culture is not enough to satisfy its leaders. They must insist that everyone think and believe in the same way that they do too. King Antiochus could not afford to allow people to think in ways that threatened his authority and power– that threatened his position as God manifested. Our modern-day gods must also control the thoughts and minds of the people– censoring opposing opinions, or as we now call it — “fact-checking” those thoughts and ideas. 

Thought crimes have always been the target of tyrants. Today, it is not enough for us to accept the behavior of those who go against God’s natural design for men and women, we must now champion it. We are deemed racists if we believe that skin color alone does not determine if one is the oppressor or the oppressed. We are not even allowed to believe in natural immunity acquired by those who have had a virus and recovered. And most disturbing, we are called science deniers if we think that boys cannot magically become girls based on their personal desires. 

There’s another interesting part of the story as told by Josephus:

When the King and his army first came to Jerusalem, he took the city without fighting, those of his own party opening the gate to him.” And when he had gotten possession of Jerusalem, he killed many of the opposite party and plundered the city.

Cancel culture cannot exist without its adherents installed in places of power and influence “within the city.” Those of us labeled as conspiracy theorists call this phenomenon in the US the “deep state.” To the dismay of so many of us in America, we have discovered just how many leftist ideological soldiers have “opened the gate” to this cancel culture nonsense in our government, our schools, our medical profession, even in our houses of faith. We have discovered that these deeply entrenched soldiers of the totalitarian faith are the Trojan horse in our midst. 

Josephus: Then the King’s army left and came back two years later. This time when the king came up to Jerusalem, he pretended peace and by doing so got possession of the city by treachery. 

As Ronald Reagan once so brilliantly surmised: The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help. The entire Covid response has been one of treachery and deceit with the government and its proxies in the established media claiming the mantle of peace, health, wisdom, and ultimate truth. For those committed to the totalitarian faith,  deception serves a higher purpose; therefore, they “will not let a good crisis go to waste.” If it advances their cause to overlook the fact that the Covid “vaccines” do not actually keep people from getting or spreading the disease, this deception is valid and useful and not likely to ever go away. 

Josephus: At which time (after entering the city) he spared not so much as those that had admitted him into it.

Eventually, those who engage in treachery will turn on their own. I am amazed at how many white male CEOs have run to a podium to denounce other white males as racists just by their very existence of being white and male. These attempts to appease the woke mob will be supremely self-destructive in the end.

Josephus continues: On account of the riches that lay in the temple, led by his covetous inclinations (for he saw there was in it a great deal of gold and many ornaments that had been dedicated to it of very great value.) In order to plunder its wealth, he broke the league he made (with those of his party). 

Ahhhh……. Greed.  The root of all evil.  Who is making money or gaining power based on the creation or exploitation of a crisis– be it a racial crisis or a health crisis?  As our general population suffers, many well-positioned elites remain unscathed by their own policies. 

Josephus: So he left the temple bare and took away the golden candlesticks and the golden altar of incense and the table of showbread and the altar of burnt offering and did not abstain from even the veils which were made of fine linen and scarlet. He also emptied it of its secret treasures and left nothing at all remaining …He also burned down the finest buildings…

The goal of cancel culture is always “to leave nothing at all remaining.” No buildings, no businesses, no statues, no traditional institutions. 

Josephus: He compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God and to adore those whom he took to be gods

Can anyone think of a self-declared god of science that we are all supposed to adore and obey?

Josephus: He appointed overseers who should compel them to do what he commanded.

Often the government either finds or compels others to do its dirty work. CEOs of major corporations come to mind, particularly media entities. 

Josephus: He forbade them to offer their daily sacrifices which they used to offer to according to the law….He made them build temples and idol altars in every city and village and offer swine upon them every day

The daily sacrifices of the Jews were part of their worship practices. Tyrants will quickly close down and prosecute religious worship, as we saw with the forced closing of churches and synagogues. Conveniently, pagan worship is encouraged as we learned that we could still purchase alcohol and marijuana, and we could all engage in the sacrament of abortion throughout the pandemic shutdowns. In the same way, false worship at the altar of CRT has been forced on thousands of employees during training classes at woke corporations.   

Josephus: He compelled them not to circumcise their sons and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction.

In the case of Antiochus, he compelled the Jews not to engage in a physical procedure on their bodies. In the case of governments around the world in 2021, tyranny in the form of an invasive medical procedure is the modern practice of the day. 

Josephus:  And indeed many Jews there were who complied with the king’s commands, either voluntarily, or out of fear of the penalty that was pronounced 

Fear is the source of tyrannical control and the tool of cancel culture both in 167 BCE and in 2021. Fear is cultivated by tyrants and used to control the people. The good news is that tyranny and fear did not win in the Hanukkah story. The courage of just a few faithful and righteous followers of the God of Israel was enough to turn the tide then and it is enough to turn the tide now.

If you want to know the rest of the story and learn how these faithful few successfully defeated one of the greatest efforts in history to cancel God, I encourage you to read the account of Hanukkah in the writings of Josephus, which can be found online. Or you can search “Torah Talk Podcast” on all major podcast apps and listen to Cancelling God: What Hanukkah can teach us about cancel culture. 

And I look forward to hearing from you about other ideas that may have been sparked by the words of Josephus. 

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  1. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Well, the books have to be inspired by God, don’t they?, in a way that Shakespeare is not

    Of course! The question is who (what institution, for example) gets to declare the books inspired or not? Do you personally decide for yourself, or is there a higher authority ordained by Jesus Christ to do such things? And how do you know? Catholics and a variety of flavors of Orthodox accept the Deuterocanon as the inspired word of God. Protestants abridged their Bibles after the Reformation, although they kept the Deuterocanon in the back of the King James Bible for a while. Just in case, I guess.

    One of our apologists has written a book about the history of the canon, if you’re open to it. I haven’t read it, but Jimmy’s a trustworthy resource: The Bible is a Catholic Book


    Western Chauvinist (View Comment)
    :

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Well, the books have to be inspired by God, don’t they?, in a way that Shakespeare is not

    Of course! The question is who (what institution, for example) gets to declare the books inspired or not? Do you personally decide for yourself, or is there a higher authority ordained by Jesus Christ to do such things? And how do you know? Catholics and a variety of flavors of Orthodox accept the Deuterocanon as the inspired word of God. Protestants abridged their Bibles after the Reformation, although they kept the Deuterocanon in the back of the King James Bible for a while. Just in case, I guess.

    One of our apologists has written a book about the history of the canon, if you’re open to it. I haven’t read it, but Jimmy’s a trustworthy resource: The Bible is a Catholic Book

    Well, in my view no institution should ever be empowered with spiritual things. People should be, people of indisputable spiritual character and insight, but even then only under the unction of the Holy Spirit. Even Peter was corrected by Paul about some fundamental issue, if I recall. The reason I asked is that I would probably include the Book of Enoch, but the book itself specifically excludes that possibility.

    Yes, Peter was corrected by Paul, but Paul didn’t create his own church.  There was still only one church.  And if everyone decides for themselves, you don’t have a church.  You have the Tower of Babel.  

    • #31
  2. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    …continued

    Now, come 1500 years later and Martin Luther in creating a Bible for his new church is faced with a problem. If he includes the Maccabee books he is faced with the theological problem of praying for the dead. Here’s what 2 Mac 12:42-46 says:

    42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
    43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;
    44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
    45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
    46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

    Why is that important? Luther fought the Catholic Church over Purgatory and praying for the dead. He could not keep that in or he would have been slammed dunk proven wrong. Notice what it says, there was a collection of money to be taken for prayers for the dead to Jerusalem. That’s no different than Catholic prayers for the dead given in churches. Not only that, it justifies the theological concept of purgatory. If there is no purgatory, then there is no reason to pray for the dead. Either you’re already in heaven, and so no prayers are needed, or you’re in hell and no prayers will help. Indeed, I do not believe that Protestants are theologically supposed to pray for the dead. So using the excuse that Judaism had excluded these books, Luther dropped them altogether. But by doing so, he took out the link between quotes from the NT to the old. But the deuterocanonical books (as well as praying for the dead and the notion of purgatory) were there from the first century.

    New Testament saints also quoted, or referred to, the Book of Enoch which is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church.  And the Greek Orthodox Church also includes 3 & 4 Maccabees and Pslam 151.  So there are differences between various Christian sections.

    And Luther did retain the institutional priesthood.

    • #32
  3. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Well, the books have to be inspired by God, don’t they?, in a way that Shakespeare is not

    Of course! The question is who (what institution, for example) gets to declare the books inspired or not? Do you personally decide for yourself, or is there a higher authority ordained by Jesus Christ to do such things? And how do you know? Catholics and a variety of flavors of Orthodox accept the Deuterocanon as the inspired word of God. Protestants abridged their Bibles after the Reformation, although they kept the Deuterocanon in the back of the King James Bible for a while. Just in case, I guess.

    One of our apologists has written a book about the history of the canon, if you’re open to it. I haven’t read it, but Jimmy’s a trustworthy resource: The Bible is a Catholic Book


    Western Chauvinist (View Comment)
    :

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Well, the books have to be inspired by God, don’t they?, in a way that Shakespeare is not

    Of course! The question is who (what institution, for example) gets to declare the books inspired or not? Do you personally decide for yourself, or is there a higher authority ordained by Jesus Christ to do such things? And how do you know? Catholics and a variety of flavors of Orthodox accept the Deuterocanon as the inspired word of God. Protestants abridged their Bibles after the Reformation, although they kept the Deuterocanon in the back of the King James Bible for a while. Just in case, I guess.

    One of our apologists has written a book about the history of the canon, if you’re open to it. I haven’t read it, but Jimmy’s a trustworthy resource: The Bible is a Catholic Book

    Well, in my view no institution should ever be empowered with spiritual things. People should be, people of indisputable spiritual character and insight, but even then only under the unction of the Holy Spirit. Even Peter was corrected by Paul about some fundamental issue, if I recall. The reason I asked is that I would probably include the Book of Enoch, but the book itself specifically excludes that possibility.

    Yes, Peter was corrected by Paul, but Paul didn’t create his own church. There was still only one church. And if everyone decides for themselves, you don’t have a church. You have the Tower of Babel.

    Peter didn’t create his own church any more than Paul did.  There is one church which is solely the creation and property of God himself.

    • #33
  4. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):
    The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.”  That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

    And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanon because their canonicity was formally recognized later.

    It’s not as simple as “The Catholics added them!” Nor is it as simple as your account. No Protestant ever opted to take anything out of the Bible.

    • #34
  5. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Even Peter was corrected by Paul about some fundamental issue, if I recall. 

    I would check Galatians 2 on that.

    • #35
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):
    Even in the Epistles, Paul and the other letter writers are quoting from the Septuagint.

    Remind me to get back to you later from a proper computer.

    • #36
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):
    But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

    There didn’t have to be.

    Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

    • #37
  8. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    “Any attempt to cancel the foundations that our nation was built on is an attempt to cancel God.”

    This statement is absolutely spot on. This is at the core of an atheistic form of government that Communism is.  There was a specific reason that Obama attacked people with guns and religion. [link]  He obviously attacked two of the key freedoms that are foundational to our Constitution, because he and his party hates God.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX11IUjkEKs

    This was clearly the intention and agenda of Darwin and his proponents who attempted to use “science” and claim that their theory was truth and could not be disagreed with or you were labelled as “anti-science”.  They came up with a lame claim to try and extrapolate small “e” evolution into something bigger and broader solely in order to create an opposite theory on creation that would eliminate and cancel any involvement of the God who created everything, including true science. Fauci is just another Darwin by claiming that he is science and thus cannot be argued with. There was a solid reason why there was such an outcry and argument against Darwin’s poorly understood and error-filled theory of a big “E” Evolution.

    Lastly, the entire “climate change” movement and the hysterical globull warming that preceded it is yet one more attempt at cancelling God’s existence and command over the Earth and its weather.

    • #38
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):
    The New Testament authors all traced their quotes from the Septuagint.

    Yes, or at least more or less, as far as I know.

    When you see Christ quote from the OT in the NT, the phrasing is identifiable to the Septuagint.

    I expect so.  (Pin that on the Gospel writers, who in this case are also acting as translators.)

    Mark, Matthew, Luke and John had the Septuagint available as they constructed their Gospels.

    Yes.

    Even in the Epistles, Paul and the other letter writers are quoting from the Septuagint.

    Not necessarily.  I think, as a general rule, they are not actually quoting from the Septuagint.  (I could be wrong. I confess to having doubts.)

    https://ricochet.com/388129/2-adventures-in-the-septuagint/

    • #39
  10. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    …continued

    Now, come 1500 years later and Martin Luther in creating a Bible for his new church is faced with a problem. If he includes the Maccabee books he is faced with the theological problem of praying for the dead. Here’s what 2 Mac 12:42-46 says:

    42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
    43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;
    44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
    45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
    46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

    Why is that important? Luther fought the Catholic Church over Purgatory and praying for the dead. He could not keep that in or he would have been slammed dunk proven wrong. Notice what it says, there was a collection of money to be taken for prayers for the dead to Jerusalem. That’s no different than Catholic prayers for the dead given in churches. Not only that, it justifies the theological concept of purgatory. If there is no purgatory, then there is no reason to pray for the dead. Either you’re already in heaven, and so no prayers are needed, or you’re in hell and no prayers will help. Indeed, I do not believe that Protestants are theologically supposed to pray for the dead. So using the excuse that Judaism had excluded these books, Luther dropped them altogether. But by doing so, he took out the link between quotes from the NT to the old. But the deuterocanonical books (as well as praying for the dead and the notion of purgatory) were there from the first century.

    New Testament saints also quoted, or referred to, the Book of Enoch which is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church. And the Greek Orthodox Church also includes 3 & 4 Maccabees and Pslam 151. So there are differences between various Christian sections.

    And Luther did retain the institutional priesthood.

    Yes, that is true.  I was simplifying somewhat.  Apparently there must have been more than one version of the Septuagint.  I’m not sure how those differences came about.

    • #40
  11. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

    There didn’t have to be.

    Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

    The official date of the NT can be traced to 382 at the Council of Rome.  But like most official proclamations in the Church, those official proclamations come quite a bit of time after it was widely accepted.  The 27 books of the NT can be traced to Clement of Alexandria (150-215), though he actually included more than the 27.  But the entire canon was officially declared in 382.  From Wikipedia:

    The Catholic Church considers that in the Council of Rome in 382 AD, under the Papacy of Damasus I, was defined the complete canon of the Bible, accepting 46 books for the Old Testament, including what the Reformed Churches consider as deuterocanonical books, and 27 books for the New Testament.[89] Based in this first canon, Saint Jerome compiled and translated the 73 books of the Bible into Latin, later known as the Vulgate Bible version, which has been considered during many centuries as one of the official Bible translations of the Catholic Church. The Synod of Hippo (in AD 393), followed by the Council of Carthage (397) and the Council of Carthage (419), also explicitly accepted the first canon from the Council of Rome; these councils [65] were under significant influence of Augustine of Hippo, who also regarded the Biblical canon as already closed.[66][67][68] The Roman Catholic Council of Florence (AD 1442) confirmed the first canon too,[73] while the Council of Trent (AD 1546) elevated the first canon to dogma.[90]

    So the Vulgate at the time of Luther already had the deuterocanonical books.

    • #41
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

    There didn’t have to be.

    Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

    The official date of the NT can be traced to 382 at the Council of Rome. But like most official proclamations in the Church, those official proclamations come quite a bit of time after it was widely accepted.

    My points exactly.

    • #42
  13. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.” That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

    And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanon because their canonicity was formally recognized later.

    It’s not as simple as “The Catholics added them!” Nor is it as simple as your account. No Protestant ever optied to take anything out of the Bible.

    Yes, of course and to be fair it depends on the spin you accept.  Protestants say he did it because he believed it was the right thing.  (Actually I’m not sure why.  What was Luther’s justification?)  Catholics say he did it to fit his new theology.  But here are a couple of more curious facts.  (1) Luther also wanted to delete four books from the New Testament: James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation, all of which contain theology which opposed his.  He wanted to delete four books of the New Testament!  Can you imagine how the Protestant world would go crazy if a pope declared four books of the NT to no longer be canonical?  Whoa.  Luther was prevented.  Remember there were political implications.  He was being protected by various aristocracy of the German city states that wanted a break from Rome.  Deleting NT books would have caused an uproar.  He ultimately didn’t.  (2) Luther wasn’t above manipulating the meaning of his translation.  He added the word “alone” to faith in Romans 3:28.  He insisted keeping it in after it was pointed out, declaring it was implied.  No he altered the text to support his claim of justification by faith alone.  If you look in today’s Protestant Bible translations, “alone” is no longer there.  It has been corrected, but Luther caused so much division.

    So you can believe whatever spin you like about Luther, but when I look at the totality of his translation decisions, it appears to me he was adjusting it to fit his theology.

    • #43
  14. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

    There didn’t have to be.

    Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

    The official date of the NT can be traced to 382 at the Council of Rome. But like most official proclamations in the Church, those official proclamations come quite a bit of time after it was widely accepted.

    My points exactly.

    Are you reading that correctly?  The official proclamation came quite a bit of time after general acceptance.  So general acceptance was before 382, even earlier.

    • #44
  15. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.” That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

    And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanon because their canonicity was formally recognized later.

    It’s not as simple as “The Catholics added them!” Nor is it as simple as your account. No Protestant ever optied to take anything out of the Bible.

    Yes, of course and to be fair it depends on the spin you accept. Protestants say he did it because he believed it was the right thing. (Actually I’m not sure why. What was Luther’s justification?) Catholics say he did it to fit his new theology. But here are a couple of more curious facts. (1) Luther also wanted to delete four books from the New Testament: James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation, all of which contain theology which opposed his. He wanted to delete four books of the New Testament! Can you imagine how the Protestant world would go crazy if a pope declared four books of the NT to no longer be canonical? Whoa. Luther was prevented. Remember there were political implications. He was being protected by various aristocracy of the German city states that wanted a break from Rome. Deleting NT books would have caused an uproar. He ultimately didn’t. (2) Luther wasn’t above manipulating the meaning of his translation. He added the word “alone” to faith in Romans 3:28. He insisted keeping it in after it was pointed out, declaring it was implied. No he altered the text to support his claim of justification by faith alone. If you look in today’s Protestant Bible translations, “alone” is no longer there. It has been corrected, but Luther caused so much division.

    So you can believe whatever spin you like about Luther, but when I look at the totality of his translation decisions, it appears to me he was adjusting it to fit his theology.

    Ok.

    I’m not a Luther scholar, and I don’t answer to Luther.

    • #45
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

    There didn’t have to be.

    Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

    The official date of the NT can be traced to 382 at the Council of Rome. But like most official proclamations in the Church, those official proclamations come quite a bit of time after it was widely accepted.

    My points exactly.

    Are you reading that correctly? The official proclamation came quite a bit of time after general acceptance. So general acceptance was before 382, even earlier.

    Yes, I’m reading you fine. I think the not-reading-fine is in the other direction.

    • #46
  17. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books.  Does anyone know what his rationale was?  

    • #47
  18. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    A lot of people don’t like his devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. [link]

     

    • #48
  19. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    • #49
  20. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    Which is pretty interesting to note — early Christians accepted them, but Jews (discomfited by the claims of Christianity?) rejected them. Luther went with 1st century Jews on this. 

    • #50
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    Which is pretty interesting to note — early Christians accepted them, but Jews (discomfited by the claims of Christianity?) rejected them. Luther went with 1st century Jews on this.

    Maybe.

    Maybe not.  What is our evidence that any authors of the New Testament accepted the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books?

    • #51
  22. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.” That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

    And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanon because their canonicity was formally recognized later.

    Later than what?

    • #52
  23. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.” That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

    And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanon because their canonicity was formally recognized later.

    Later than what?

    A good question.

    Later than the rest of the Bible.

    I guess.

    Is there some other answer available?

    • #53
  24. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    The terms protocanonical and deuterocanonical, of frequent usage among Catholic theologians and exegetes, require a word of caution. They are not felicitous, and it would be wrong to infer from them that the Church successively possessed two distinct Biblical Canons. Only in a partial and restricted way may we speak of a first and second Canon. Protocanonical (protos, “first”) is a conventional word denoting those sacred writings which have been always received by Christendomwithout dispute. The protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bibleof the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants. The deuterocanonical (deuteros, “second”) are those whose Scriptural character was contested in some quarters, but which long ago gained a secure footing in the Bible of the Catholic Church, though those of the Old Testament are classed by Protestants as the “Apocrypha”. These consist of seven books: Tobias, Judith, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, First and Second Machabees; also certain additions to Esther and Daniel.

    It should be noted that protocanonical and deuterocanonical are modern terms, not having been used before the sixteenth century.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

     

    • #54
  25. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    To review the timeline:
    * in 382 the Church publishes the canon of Scripture
    * over 1000 years later, Catholic theologians coin the term deuterocanonical to refer to the books the reformers had contested

    • #55
  26. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    OK, I guess I knew that.  Thank you.

    • #56
  27. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    Which is pretty interesting to note — early Christians accepted them, but Jews (discomfited by the claims of Christianity?) rejected them. Luther went with 1st century Jews on this.

    The argument is that they were not originally written in Hebrew but Greek.  They all seem pretty Jewish in nature to me, despite the language they were written, and Jews do regard them as worthy but just not part of their canon.

    • #57
  28. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    Which is pretty interesting to note — early Christians accepted them, but Jews (discomfited by the claims of Christianity?) rejected them. Luther went with 1st century Jews on this.

    Maybe.

    Maybe not. What is our evidence that any authors of the New Testament accepted the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books?

    They used the Septuagint as the basis of the New Testament.  Where’s the evidence they rejected it?  Plus Maccabee is a precursor/prototype of Christ.

    • #58
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    So in all this discussion it has made me realize, I only know the criticism of Luther’s decision to drop the deuterocanonical OT books. Does anyone know what his rationale was?

    According to Catholics online, the deuterocanonical books are considered apocryphal to Jews, as well. In the first century, a council of Jewish leaders rejected the books as canon due to their being written in Greek (to discover later that there were earlier manuscripts in Hebrew). Luther rejected them because the Jews rejected them.

    Which is pretty interesting to note — early Christians accepted them, but Jews (discomfited by the claims of Christianity?) rejected them. Luther went with 1st century Jews on this.

    The argument is that they were not originally written in Hebrew but Greek. They all seem pretty Jewish in nature to me, despite the language they were written, and Jews do regard them as worthy but just not part of their canon.

    They are spectacularly Jewish. More Jewish than much that passes for Jewish these days.

    The argument that is of interest to us Reformation types is not whether they were originally written in Greek. One major question of interest is whether any (and, if so, which) Jews ever did recognize them as Scripture.

    • #59
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    To review the timeline:
    * in 382 the Church publishes the canon of Scripture
    * over 1000 years later, Catholic theologians coin the term deuterocanonical to refer to the books the reformers had contested

    And when was the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha formally recognized as canon? (By the church as such, not just by one group of African bishops?)

    • #60
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