Canceling God: Hanukkah and Cancel Culture

 

Perhaps no other story so perfectly epitomizes the fight for freedom of worship than the story of Hanukkah. Though celebrated by the Jewish people for centuries, this story cannot be found in our Bibles. In fact, it occurred in the years between the testaments, but its significance to both Jews and to Christians cannot be underestimated.

The heroic efforts of the Jewish family known to us as the Maccabees literally saved the Temple in Jerusalem and the right of the Jewish people to worship their God. If not for the willingness of these warriors to stand against an evil tyrant, the circumstances would not have existed for a baby to be born in a stable to a devout Jewish family, circumcised on the eighth day as required by Torah law, and raised in a Torah-observant manner that qualified him to be the perfect sinless sacrifice for very sinful people.

The enemies of God, both spiritual and physical, know that God must be canceled and that the best way to accomplish this is to cancel His word, which is ultimate truth, and to cancel a people group dedicated to representing Him on this earth. The story of Hanukkah was not the first time that the enemies of God tried to cancel Him, and it is certainly not the last. We are living in a time when cancel culture has been intensifying exponentially. Make no mistake about it, cancel culture in the United States is not about canceling misogyny, racism, colonialism, homophobia, or even hate. It is about canceling God. 

The United States is the only nation in the history of the world that was founded on Judeo-Christian foundations — these foundations include the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They include freedom of speech, freedom to worship in the manner you see fit, freedom to defend yourself, limited government— basically most of what is set forth in our founding documents. Our founders turned to God’s word, both the older and the newer testaments when establishing our nation. We have been a nation that, up until very recently, has defined itself as a Judeo-Christian nation that worshipped the God of Israel. Any attempt to cancel the foundations that our nation was built on is an attempt to cancel God.  If we don’t recognize the ancient spiritual nature of our battle, we cannot fight it. I believe that in order to stand against these destructive spiritual forces, we can learn much from the powerful historical account of the story of Hanukkah. 

Much of what we know about Hanukkah is recorded in the writings of Flavius Josephus, a first-century Roman-Jewish historian.  As a thoughtful exercise in comparisons, I am going to use quotes from Josephus’ writings to identify themes of cancel culture that existed well over 2,000 years ago and still persist to this day. I have identified the quotes of Josephus by underlining them. By no means will I cover all of the points of similarity. I welcome readers’ feedback in identifying other relevant comparisons.   

The story of Hanukkah is set in 167 BCE after the death of Alexander the Great who conquered the lands of the kings of Media-Persia. He ruled the world for 12 years and upon his deathbed, he divided his kingdom among four of his generals. These generals and their descendants each ruled a part of the great Greek empire.

A descendant of one of these generals was named Antiochus Epiphanies, the King of Syria. The realm of this particular king included Judea– Israel. Interestingly, Antiochus Epiphanes is not an actual name. It is a title that means “God Manifested.” Keeping this title in mind is critical for understanding the goals and objectives of tyrants like Antiochus.

The goal of King Antiochus was not just military; his goal was also to conquer cultures–to impose the Greek culture upon all nations in his realm.  He wanted unity in his kingdom and required that everyone give up their traditions and adopt a Greek way of life. Many conquered nations fell in line with the Greek culture. Even in Judea, there were many Jews who wanted to adopt the Greek culture. 

Josephus: Thus, they desired his (The King’s ) permission to build them a Gymnasium at Jerusalem. (A Gymnasium was a place where people exercised naked.) And when he had given them leave, they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that even when they were naked they might appear to be Greek. “Accordingly, they left off all the customs that belonged to their country and imitated the practices of the other nations. “

Many Jews were more than willing to assimilate into the Greek culture–even to the point of engaging in medical procedures to “hide” their circumcision. That was intense assimilation. There is no more effective way to cancel an entire culture, an entire people group, than through assimilation. It is generally much easier and less messy than physical force, although often when assimilation doesn’t work, physical force is used.  The history of the Jewish people is one of either persecution for remaining a separate and set apart people or “relative” peace by assimilating– getting swallowed up by their “host” nation.  

But remember, God called Israel to be a separate and holy nation unto Himself. In Hebrew, “holy” means “to be set apart.” Their set-apartness was part of God’s plan to redeem the entire world. They were not to assimilate. If they become just one of the other nations, it would be impossible for them to be a light to these nations. 

Similarly, we as God’s people are not to assimilate into the world. We are not to forsake our God-given “culture” in order to fit in with the rest of the world or even for the purpose of avoiding persecution. 

Today, we are facing these same pressures to assimilate. Adopting the behaviors of a dominant or coercive culture is not enough to satisfy its leaders. They must insist that everyone think and believe in the same way that they do too. King Antiochus could not afford to allow people to think in ways that threatened his authority and power– that threatened his position as God manifested. Our modern-day gods must also control the thoughts and minds of the people– censoring opposing opinions, or as we now call it — “fact-checking” those thoughts and ideas. 

Thought crimes have always been the target of tyrants. Today, it is not enough for us to accept the behavior of those who go against God’s natural design for men and women, we must now champion it. We are deemed racists if we believe that skin color alone does not determine if one is the oppressor or the oppressed. We are not even allowed to believe in natural immunity acquired by those who have had a virus and recovered. And most disturbing, we are called science deniers if we think that boys cannot magically become girls based on their personal desires. 

There’s another interesting part of the story as told by Josephus:

When the King and his army first came to Jerusalem, he took the city without fighting, those of his own party opening the gate to him.” And when he had gotten possession of Jerusalem, he killed many of the opposite party and plundered the city.

Cancel culture cannot exist without its adherents installed in places of power and influence “within the city.” Those of us labeled as conspiracy theorists call this phenomenon in the US the “deep state.” To the dismay of so many of us in America, we have discovered just how many leftist ideological soldiers have “opened the gate” to this cancel culture nonsense in our government, our schools, our medical profession, even in our houses of faith. We have discovered that these deeply entrenched soldiers of the totalitarian faith are the Trojan horse in our midst. 

Josephus: Then the King’s army left and came back two years later. This time when the king came up to Jerusalem, he pretended peace and by doing so got possession of the city by treachery. 

As Ronald Reagan once so brilliantly surmised: The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help. The entire Covid response has been one of treachery and deceit with the government and its proxies in the established media claiming the mantle of peace, health, wisdom, and ultimate truth. For those committed to the totalitarian faith,  deception serves a higher purpose; therefore, they “will not let a good crisis go to waste.” If it advances their cause to overlook the fact that the Covid “vaccines” do not actually keep people from getting or spreading the disease, this deception is valid and useful and not likely to ever go away. 

Josephus: At which time (after entering the city) he spared not so much as those that had admitted him into it.

Eventually, those who engage in treachery will turn on their own. I am amazed at how many white male CEOs have run to a podium to denounce other white males as racists just by their very existence of being white and male. These attempts to appease the woke mob will be supremely self-destructive in the end.

Josephus continues: On account of the riches that lay in the temple, led by his covetous inclinations (for he saw there was in it a great deal of gold and many ornaments that had been dedicated to it of very great value.) In order to plunder its wealth, he broke the league he made (with those of his party). 

Ahhhh……. Greed.  The root of all evil.  Who is making money or gaining power based on the creation or exploitation of a crisis– be it a racial crisis or a health crisis?  As our general population suffers, many well-positioned elites remain unscathed by their own policies. 

Josephus: So he left the temple bare and took away the golden candlesticks and the golden altar of incense and the table of showbread and the altar of burnt offering and did not abstain from even the veils which were made of fine linen and scarlet. He also emptied it of its secret treasures and left nothing at all remaining …He also burned down the finest buildings…

The goal of cancel culture is always “to leave nothing at all remaining.” No buildings, no businesses, no statues, no traditional institutions. 

Josephus: He compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God and to adore those whom he took to be gods

Can anyone think of a self-declared god of science that we are all supposed to adore and obey?

Josephus: He appointed overseers who should compel them to do what he commanded.

Often the government either finds or compels others to do its dirty work. CEOs of major corporations come to mind, particularly media entities. 

Josephus: He forbade them to offer their daily sacrifices which they used to offer to according to the law….He made them build temples and idol altars in every city and village and offer swine upon them every day

The daily sacrifices of the Jews were part of their worship practices. Tyrants will quickly close down and prosecute religious worship, as we saw with the forced closing of churches and synagogues. Conveniently, pagan worship is encouraged as we learned that we could still purchase alcohol and marijuana, and we could all engage in the sacrament of abortion throughout the pandemic shutdowns. In the same way, false worship at the altar of CRT has been forced on thousands of employees during training classes at woke corporations.   

Josephus: He compelled them not to circumcise their sons and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction.

In the case of Antiochus, he compelled the Jews not to engage in a physical procedure on their bodies. In the case of governments around the world in 2021, tyranny in the form of an invasive medical procedure is the modern practice of the day. 

Josephus:  And indeed many Jews there were who complied with the king’s commands, either voluntarily, or out of fear of the penalty that was pronounced 

Fear is the source of tyrannical control and the tool of cancel culture both in 167 BCE and in 2021. Fear is cultivated by tyrants and used to control the people. The good news is that tyranny and fear did not win in the Hanukkah story. The courage of just a few faithful and righteous followers of the God of Israel was enough to turn the tide then and it is enough to turn the tide now.

If you want to know the rest of the story and learn how these faithful few successfully defeated one of the greatest efforts in history to cancel God, I encourage you to read the account of Hanukkah in the writings of Josephus, which can be found online. Or you can search “Torah Talk Podcast” on all major podcast apps and listen to Cancelling God: What Hanukkah can teach us about cancel culture. 

And I look forward to hearing from you about other ideas that may have been sparked by the words of Josephus. 

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  1. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    My point about the Masoretic text is that it is not more authentic than the Septuagint and that the Masoretes intentionally undermined Christianity in its creation. It should be suspect to Christians and should not be used as the basis of the OT translation. It is 1100 years older than the Septuagint, and altered by time and the changes to Judaism as a result of the destruction of the Temple. I am disagreeing with the Bible translators who use the Masoretic text as the basis of the OT.

    Ok, so tell someone who disagrees.

    LOL.  You keep asking.  

    [Me:] I don’t think the NT is based on the LXX. Do you have some reason I should, other than that the NT quotes from the LXX?

    Well everywhere I read it says so. When 90% of the references to the OT match the Septuagint and only 10% match the Masoretic, then I am convinced. You want to disagree fine.

    Ok, I disagree. 90% references matching is a weak argument.

    [Me:] I think the NT actually does not even quote from the LXX–much. Do you have some reason I should think otherwise?

    I’ve given clear examples. Look at my three egregious distortions from the Masoretic. You are bucking the general consensus. You prove the consensus is wrong. I rest with the consensus. We’ll just have to disagree.

    I saw your examples. They make a lousy argument.

    But what consensus? I know of three scholars who put things in that very oversimplified way–“The NT quotes the LXX.” Does the consensus really say that? Or does it only say the NT authors don’t always do original translations and that their OT quotations align with the LXX (and maybe also with the Dead Sea Scrolls) readings of the original Hebrew more often than with the Masoretic?

    But if you want me to give evidence against this alleged consensus, I can. Do you really think every NT author from uncircumcised Luke to Paul the Torah-memorizing Pharisee couldn’t be quoting from the Hebrew when they happened to be using a preexisting translation? That just doesn’t make sense.

    OK, so this is a point of disagreement.  We’ll have to agree to disagree.  ;)

    • #151
  2. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Are you referring to Isaiah 8:3? That woman has nothing to do with the virgin in Is 7. The virgin conceived her own son. Those are clearly two separate women.

    Two separate women, one prophecy.

    Isaiah 7 :10 and following plainly speak of a baby during whose childhood Ephraim and Syria will be defeated by Assyria.

    When did Assyria destroy the Northern Kingdom of Israel? Was it when Jesus was a small boy?

    I don’t see what this has to do with the prophesy of the virgin birth.

    It is the prophecy of the alma birth. Read Isaiah 7.

    I see what you mean, but so what? It’s still two different women as far as I can tell and I’d rather err on the side of the virgin birth prophesy.

    Yes, it’s two different women.  Of course it’s two different women.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word can only mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Mrs. Isaiah.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word cannot mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Christ (or did not refer to Christ).

    The right answer is simple: The original Hebrew word could have either meaning, and had both.

    • #152
  3. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    My point about the Masoretic text is that it is not more authentic than the Septuagint and that the Masoretes intentionally undermined Christianity in its creation. It should be suspect to Christians and should not be used as the basis of the OT translation. It is 1100 years older than the Septuagint, and altered by time and the changes to Judaism as a result of the destruction of the Temple. I am disagreeing with the Bible translators who use the Masoretic text as the basis of the OT.

    Ok, so tell someone who disagrees.

    LOL. You keep asking.

    I keep asking because you keep telling me, and I thought you were telling me because you thought I needed to know.  You are very confusing.

    [Me:] I don’t think the NT is based on the LXX. Do you have some reason I should, other than that the NT quotes from the LXX?

    Well everywhere I read it says so. When 90% of the references to the OT match the Septuagint and only 10% match the Masoretic, then I am convinced. You want to disagree fine.

    Ok, I disagree. 90% references matching is a weak argument.

    [Me:] I think the NT actually does not even quote from the LXX–much. Do you have some reason I should think otherwise?

    I’ve given clear examples. Look at my three egregious distortions from the Masoretic. You are bucking the general consensus. You prove the consensus is wrong. I rest with the consensus. We’ll just have to disagree.

    I saw your examples. They make a lousy argument.

    But what consensus? I know of three scholars who put things in that very oversimplified way–“The NT quotes the LXX.” Does the consensus really say that? Or does it only say the NT authors don’t always do original translations and that their OT quotations align with the LXX (and maybe also with the Dead Sea Scrolls) readings of the original Hebrew more often than with the Masoretic?

    But if you want me to give evidence against this alleged consensus, I can. Do you really think every NT author from uncircumcised Luke to Paul the Torah-memorizing Pharisee couldn’t be quoting from the Hebrew when they happened to be using a preexisting translation? That just doesn’t make sense.

    OK, so this is a point of disagreement. We’ll have to agree to disagree. ;)

    Why not look at the arguments?

    • #153
  4. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    [Me:] Your only reason I can discern is that the NT is usually like the LXX rather than the Masoretic text where they differ. But you yourself acknowledged that it also tends to be like the Dead Sea Scrolls in these situations, and that when writing in Greek the NT authors can also be quoting from the Hebrew. So all you have shown is that the NT does not use the Masoretic Hebrew. Is it not possible (I would say most likely) that the NT is actually quoting from a Hebrew text which the LXX, Masoretic, and Dead Sea Scrolls are all representing?

    The NT could not have used the Masoretic Hebrew because the NT was written 900 years before the Masoretic. The 10% of the NT that seems to match the Masoretic text is mostly coincidence of dealing with the same material. If there was a strong link to the Masoretic then it would have been well above the 10%. I don’t acknowledge anything about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I did not see any evidence it was closer to the Septuagint. I only saw a claim it was closer. Yes, it is possible the Dead Sea Scrolls could have represented the same Hebrew as what the Septuagint used. It could be the very original for all I know. Unfortunately we only have fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls and I think only one complete book of the OT.

    Don’t you mean the 10% of the times where the Masoretic text and the LXX differ?

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic.  80% they differed.  Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic.  So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%.  So I think that’s a grand total of 8%.  That’s a very small amount.

    But it looks like you didn’t understand my question. Is it not possible that the norm in NT quotations is to quote from the Hebrew OT that they had?

    We don’t have the same Hebrew OT, but we have three excellent representations of it, and they align to an astonishing degree despite their disadvantages–one is not complete, and one is in another language, and one is newer. We don’t have exactly the same Hebrew, but we are amazingly close.

    And it turns out that when the newer one differs from the one in another language, the newer one looks less reliable.

    But that is not evidence that quotes agreeing with the one in another language are quotes from it instead of from the original Hebrew.

    Yes it is possible and probably certain because the Hebrew OT they had was what the Septuagint was translated from.  The Septuagint in Greek is the original Hebrew OT.

    • #154
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    [Me:] Since we agree the original Hebrew OT text is inspired, do we not need to know what it says?

    Because the Septuagint translated it while it still existed. The Septuagint is the inspired OT. Translate it back to Hebrew. You seem to fail to understand that the Holy Spirit led to the creation of the Septuagint.

    I am well aware of that view. I just don’t have any reason to accept it.

    Alright, I guess we disagree.

    But, more importantly for this conversation: No, reverse translating is a lousy way of figuring out what the Hebrew Word of G-d says.

    Using the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the LXX together to get back to the original Hebrew is a good way, and the only viable way.

    If you really care about scholarly consensus, you should know that this is the scholarly consensus.

    Yes, I just don’t trust Liberal scholars.

    The Holy Spirit allowed the original Hebrew to be destroyed.

    No. He did not. He allowed the original manuscripts to be destroyed, for the OT as well as the NT. But the original text of them both is still going strong.

    Not that we have either in more than an approximate form. But that is just how textual history works, and it’s not a problem, and it is an amazingly accurate approximation. (# 109.)

    It does appear they are amazingly accurate.  But where the LXX and the Masoretic differ, it sticks in my throat.  

    I do not believe the Holy Spirit led non-Christians to create another OT.

    No one believes that.

    You seem to have become a skeptical scholar and not a devout Christian.

    Huh?

    [Me:] And how do you think we should figure out the original Hebrew text?

    I don’t know. Let the scholars try but frankly it won’t mean anything.

    I know how. I keep telling you how. It’s what they agree on. It’s what the scholars do. They’ve been doing it for millenia. It’s pretty much what they do for the NT text as well.

    Are you aware that the Septuagint was also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls?

    No, but that is neat!

    I think it’s the texts that came out of Qumran Cave 7.  But I’m just getting info off the internet.  Who knows how accurate it is.

    • #155
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Don’t you mean the 10% of the times where the Masoretic text and the LXX differ?

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic. 80% they differed. Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic. So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%. So I think that’s a grand total of 8%. That’s a very small amount.

    Ah. My mistake, I reckon. Thank you.

    But it looks like you didn’t understand my question. Is it not possible that the norm in NT quotations is to quote from the Hebrew OT that they had?

    We don’t have the same Hebrew OT, but we have three excellent representations of it, and they align to an astonishing degree despite their disadvantages–one is not complete, and one is in another language, and one is newer. We don’t have exactly the same Hebrew, but we are amazingly close.

    And it turns out that when the newer one differs from the one in another language, the newer one looks less reliable.

    But that is not evidence that quotes agreeing with the one in another language are quotes from it instead of from the original Hebrew.

    Yes it is possible and probably certain because the Hebrew OT they had was what the Septuagint was translated from. The Septuagint in Greek is the original Hebrew OT.

    No, the LXX in Greek is not the original Hebrew. Hebrew isn’t Greek.

    But did you just agree with me that NT authors are quoting from the Hebrew even when they use the LXX?

    • #156
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic.  80% they differed.  Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic.  So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%.  So I think that’s a grand total of 8%.  That’s a very small amount.

    Of course, if the LXX is itself inspired (and not just a reliable translation of the inspired Hebrew), then the NT should never once disagree with it.  Very small isn’t enough.  Only none is enough.

    • #157
  8. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Are you referring to Isaiah 8:3? That woman has nothing to do with the virgin in Is 7. The virgin conceived her own son. Those are clearly two separate women.

    Two separate women, one prophecy.

    Isaiah 7 :10 and following plainly speak of a baby during whose childhood Ephraim and Syria will be defeated by Assyria.

    When did Assyria destroy the Northern Kingdom of Israel? Was it when Jesus was a small boy?

    I don’t see what this has to do with the prophesy of the virgin birth.

    It is the prophecy of the alma birth. Read Isaiah 7.

    I see what you mean, but so what? It’s still two different women as far as I can tell and I’d rather err on the side of the virgin birth prophesy.

    Yes, it’s two different women. Of course it’s two different women.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word can only mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Mrs. Isaiah.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word cannot mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Christ (or did not refer to Christ).

    The right answer is simple: The original Hebrew word could have either meaning, and had both.

    I can’t say I understand this all, but I’ll differ to you.  But changing the word from virgin diminishes the prophesy of Christ’s birth.  I don’t like that.  

    • #158
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    But, more importantly for this conversation: No, reverse translating is a lousy way of figuring out what the Hebrew Word of G-d says.

    Using the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the LXX together to get back to the original Hebrew is a good way, and the only viable way.

    If you really care about scholarly consensus, you should know that this is the scholarly consensus.

    Yes, I just don’t trust Liberal scholars.

    Nor do I, but this isn’t a liberal thing.  This is liberals, conservatives, Barthians, Protestants, Catholics.

    I guess I haven’t personally checked on all of those categories.  But I’ve personally heard this stuff from conservatives (and not from liberals).

    (I studied this under William E. Bell of DBU, an author and signers of the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.)

    The Holy Spirit allowed the original Hebrew to be destroyed.

    No. He did not. He allowed the original manuscripts to be destroyed, for the OT as well as the NT. But the original text of them both is still going strong.

    Not that we have either in more than an approximate form. But that is just how textual history works, and it’s not a problem, and it is an amazingly accurate approximation. (# 109.)

    It does appear they are amazingly accurate. But where the LXX and the Masoretic differ, it sticks in my throat.

    Ok. And I’m totally ok with preferring the LXX to the Masoretic.

    • #159
  10. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    My point about the Masoretic text is that it is not more authentic than the Septuagint and that the Masoretes intentionally undermined Christianity in its creation. It should be suspect to Christians and should not be used as the basis of the OT translation. It is 1100 years older than the Septuagint, and altered by time and the changes to Judaism as a result of the destruction of the Temple. I am disagreeing with the Bible translators who use the Masoretic text as the basis of the OT.

    Ok, so tell someone who disagrees.

    LOL. You keep asking.

    I keep asking because you keep telling me, and I thought you were telling me because you thought I needed to know. You are very confusing.

    [Me:] I don’t think the NT is based on the LXX. Do you have some reason I should, other than that the NT quotes from the LXX?

    Well everywhere I read it says so. When 90% of the references to the OT match the Septuagint and only 10% match the Masoretic, then I am convinced. You want to disagree fine.

    Ok, I disagree. 90% references matching is a weak argument.

    [Me:] I think the NT actually does not even quote from the LXX–much. Do you have some reason I should think otherwise?

    I’ve given clear examples. Look at my three egregious distortions from the Masoretic. You are bucking the general consensus. You prove the consensus is wrong. I rest with the consensus. We’ll just have to disagree.

    I saw your examples. They make a lousy argument.

    But what consensus? I know of three scholars who put things in that very oversimplified way–“The NT quotes the LXX.” Does the consensus really say that? Or does it only say the NT authors don’t always do original translations and that their OT quotations align with the LXX (and maybe also with the Dead Sea Scrolls) readings of the original Hebrew more often than with the Masoretic?

    But if you want me to give evidence against this alleged consensus, I can. Do you really think every NT author from uncircumcised Luke to Paul the Torah-memorizing Pharisee couldn’t be quoting from the Hebrew when they happened to be using a preexisting translation? That just doesn’t make sense.

    OK, so this is a point of disagreement. We’ll have to agree to disagree. ;)

    Why not look at the arguments?

    I did.  I disagree but I’m getting tired of the subject.  I do have other things to do.

    • #160
  11. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Are you referring to Isaiah 8:3? That woman has nothing to do with the virgin in Is 7. The virgin conceived her own son. Those are clearly two separate women.

    Two separate women, one prophecy.

    Isaiah 7 :10 and following plainly speak of a baby during whose childhood Ephraim and Syria will be defeated by Assyria.

    When did Assyria destroy the Northern Kingdom of Israel? Was it when Jesus was a small boy?

    I don’t see what this has to do with the prophesy of the virgin birth.

    It is the prophecy of the alma birth. Read Isaiah 7.

    I see what you mean, but so what? It’s still two different women as far as I can tell and I’d rather err on the side of the virgin birth prophesy.

    Yes, it’s two different women. Of course it’s two different women.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word can only mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Mrs. Isaiah.

    If you insist that the original Hebrew word cannot mean “virgin,” then your view entails that the prophecy erred in referring to Christ (or did not refer to Christ).

    The right answer is simple: The original Hebrew word could have either meaning, and had both.

    I can’t say I understand this all, but I’ll differ to you. But changing the word from virgin diminishes the prophesy of Christ’s birth. I don’t like that.

    No one’s in favor of changing the word. We just don’t agree on what the word was.

    If word was beha-whatever instead of alma, then the Bible erred in referring to Isaiah’s wife, didn’t it?

    If the word was alma, then the Bible did not err in referring either to Mrs. Isaiah or to Mary. And the LXX translation is still correct.

    • #161
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Why not look at the arguments?

    I did.

    Not that I could tell.

    I disagree but I’m getting tired of the subject. I do have other things to do.

    But ok. And thanks for a lovely conversation. Other than the delusion that I’m some sort of skeptical scholar–wrong on both points!–it was awesome.  You’re wrong, and you’re awesome.

    • #162
  13. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Don’t you mean the 10% of the times where the Masoretic text and the LXX differ?

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic. 80% they differed. Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic. So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%. So I think that’s a grand total of 8%. That’s a very small amount.

    Ah. My mistake, I reckon. Thank you.

    But it looks like you didn’t understand my question. Is it not possible that the norm in NT quotations is to quote from the Hebrew OT that they had?

    We don’t have the same Hebrew OT, but we have three excellent representations of it, and they align to an astonishing degree despite their disadvantages–one is not complete, and one is in another language, and one is newer. We don’t have exactly the same Hebrew, but we are amazingly close.

    And it turns out that when the newer one differs from the one in another language, the newer one looks less reliable.

    But that is not evidence that quotes agreeing with the one in another language are quotes from it instead of from the original Hebrew.

    Yes it is possible and probably certain because the Hebrew OT they had was what the Septuagint was translated from. The Septuagint in Greek is the original Hebrew OT.

    No, the LXX in Greek is not the original Hebrew. Hebrew isn’t Greek.

    But did you just agree with me that NT authors are quoting from the Hebrew even when they use the LXX?

    I said it’s possible and probable.  But I don’t know if it’s definitive.  You’re talking to me as if I’m a PhD scholar on this!  I thank you for the compliment but I’m basically an amateur on this subject.

    • #163
  14. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Reply

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic. 80% they differed. Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic. So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%. So I think that’s a grand total of 8%. That’s a very small amount.

    Of course, if the LXX is itself inspired (and not just a reliable translation of the inspired Hebrew), then the NT should never once disagree with it. Very small isn’t enough. Only none is enough.

    Good point, but the Holy Spirit has His motivations!  He may have multiple objectives!  ;)  He may want this ambiguity, just as in God’s ambiguity.  You hear atheists ask frequently why doesn’t God just come out and show us He exists in a definitive way?  Well that ambiguity is part of His plan.  Perhaps the ambiguity with the scriptures is part of His plan too.  

    • #164
  15. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Why not look at the arguments?

    I did.

    Not that I could tell.

    I disagree but I’m getting tired of the subject. I do have other things to do.

    But ok. And thanks for a lovely conversation. Other than the delusion that I’m some sort of skeptical scholar–wrong on both points!–it was awesome. You’re wrong, and you’re awesome.

    It was a great conversation!  Maybe the best extended conversation I’ve ever had on Ricochet.  

    • #165
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    No, the LXX in Greek is not the original Hebrew. Hebrew isn’t Greek.

    But did you just agree with me that NT authors are quoting from the Hebrew even when they use the LXX?

    I said it’s possible and probable. But I don’t know if it’s definitive.

    Then why insist that they are quoting from the LXX?  And if they are double-quoting–quoting both the Hebrew and the translation they agree with–why would that entail that both things they quote are equally inspired?

    You’re talking to me as if I’m a PhD scholar on this! I thank you for the compliment but I’m basically an amateur on this subject.

    I wasn’t trying to. I’m no more than a B.A. scholar myself, and you’re plainly better than many professional scholars.  [Grumble, grumble.  Scholars these days. Mumble, grumble.]

    • #166
  17. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Reply

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I believe the exact claim was that when there was a refereence to the OT in the NT, 20% would have matched either the LXX and the Masoretic. 80% they differed. Of the 80%, 90% matched the LXX and only 10% agreed with the Masoeretic. So to be precise it’s 10% of the 80%. So I think that’s a grand total of 8%. That’s a very small amount.

    Of course, if the LXX is itself inspired (and not just a reliable translation of the inspired Hebrew), then the NT should never once disagree with it. Very small isn’t enough. Only none is enough.

    Good point, but the Holy Spirit has His motivations! He may have multiple objectives! ;)

    Yes, but He’ll never have the Bible err.

    But it is possible that the LXX is inspired and the NT reads the OT differently without disagreeing with it.

    But it’s pretty much certain that that happens one way or another.  In my view, the NT uses the LXX reading of the Psalm’s line about ears–the language is a bit different, but an interpretation of the language is made without any disagreement with it.

    He may want this ambiguity, just as in God’s ambiguity. You hear atheists ask frequently why doesn’t God just come out and show us He exists in a definitive way? Well that ambiguity is part of His plan. Perhaps the ambiguity with the scriptures is part of His plan too.

    Works for me!

    Although I don’t see any more ambiguity than we would have for any old book–much less, in fact.  This is just the facts about how old books happen, plus a lick of common-sense.

    • #167
  18. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Well I enjoyed it.

    • #168
  19. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Stina (View Comment):

    Well I enjoyed it.

    Thank you Stina.  I didn’t know if anyone was still following us.  :)

    • #169
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Well I enjoyed it.

    Thank you Stina. I didn’t know if anyone was still following us. :)

    Jesus is following. He’ll probably get back to us later about how terrible we did.

    • #170
  21. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    I’m in my third reading of “Jews, God and History” published 1962, by Max I. Dimont. Revised and republished in 1994.

    • #171
  22. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    In response to Kathy Mardirosian’s comment to me 6 pages back, I am almost totally deaf, so don’t use social media nor am I able to follow podcasts. My listening and comprehension abilities are about nil. However, I thoroughly enjoyed your post, just need to figure out how to get it to a good friend of 60 years, who can hear, but cannot see. Two old ladies here, one nearly blind and the other one nearly deaf.

    • #172
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    @SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians.  I don’t think I mentioned this.  The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text.  Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek?  Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts.  I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    • #173
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Of course it implies a continuity of text.  That text is the Old Testament–a text written in Hebrew.

    • #174
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Or by “language” do you just mean Greek as opposed to Hebrew, Latin, Swahili, etc.?  In that case, no: The continuity of language only implies that they were writing in the same language.  And they wrote in Greek because they wanted people to be able to read it.  The intent was one continuous Bible–with the last bits in Greek.

    • #175
  26. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Or by “language” do you just mean Greek as opposed to Hebrew, Latin, Swahili, etc.? In that case, no: The continuity of language only implies that they were writing in the same language. And they wrote in Greek because they wanted people to be able to read it. The intent was one continuous Bible–with the last bits in Greek.

    Yes, the Greek language.  Because the Septuagint was written in Greek, the New Testament writers felt obligated to continue in Greek.  That’s my theory.  Apparently there was no compunction to return to the Hebrew.  They must have been so steeped in the Septuagint Greek that they felt no obligation to write in Hebrew.  Actually as I think on it, by the first century A.D. Hebrew may have already been a dead language.  Jews spoke in Aramaic or Greek.

    • #176
  27. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Or by “language” do you just mean Greek as opposed to Hebrew, Latin, Swahili, etc.? In that case, no: The continuity of language only implies that they were writing in the same language. And they wrote in Greek because they wanted people to be able to read it. The intent was one continuous Bible–with the last bits in Greek.

    Yes, the Greek language. Because the Septuagint was written in Greek, the New Testament writers felt obligated to continue in Greek. That’s my theory. Apparently there was no compunction to return to the Hebrew. They must have been so steeped in the Septuagint Greek that they felt no obligation to write in Hebrew. Actually as I think on it, by the first century A.D. Hebrew may have already been a dead language. Jews spoke in Aramaic or Greek.

    It wasn’t dead.  Plenty of Rabbis (at least) knew it, and Aramaic is (so I understand) not exactly a different language.

    But anyway . . .

    It’s an interesting theory, and I have a better one: Paul and all the Palestinian writers knew the Hebrew OT, and they wrote in Greek so that Gentiles and Greek-speaking Jews could read what they were writing.  They had no obligation to write in Hebrew because they had no obligation to write in a language most people could not read.  In a different context, they would have used Latin or English.

    • #177
  28. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Or by “language” do you just mean Greek as opposed to Hebrew, Latin, Swahili, etc.? In that case, no: The continuity of language only implies that they were writing in the same language. And they wrote in Greek because they wanted people to be able to read it. The intent was one continuous Bible–with the last bits in Greek.

    Yes, the Greek language. Because the Septuagint was written in Greek, the New Testament writers felt obligated to continue in Greek. That’s my theory. Apparently there was no compunction to return to the Hebrew. They must have been so steeped in the Septuagint Greek that they felt no obligation to write in Hebrew. Actually as I think on it, by the first century A.D. Hebrew may have already been a dead language. Jews spoke in Aramaic or Greek.

    It wasn’t dead. Plenty of Rabbis (at least) knew it, and Aramaic is (so I understand) not exactly a different language.

    But anyway . . .

    It’s an interesting theory, and I have a better one: Paul and all the Palestinian writers knew the Hebrew OT, and they wrote in Greek so that Gentiles and Greek-speaking Jews could read what they were writing. They had no obligation to write in Hebrew because they had no obligation to write in a language most people could not read. In a different context, they would have used Latin or English.

    Yes that’s possible too. Given that most people did not read in any language, I wonder who they were writing for. Paul was writing letters to be read in churches of Greek speakers, so that’s understandable. But who were the Gospel writers writing for?  Something to think about. 

    • #178
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    @ SaintAugustine

    I just thought of another reason why the Septuagint should be the authoritative text for Christians. I don’t think I mentioned this. The New Testament writers all wrote in Greek, which I did mention, but the continuity of language implies a continuity of text. Why did the New Testament writers write in Greek? Because I would maintain (with no way to prove it) that they intended to build on the Septuagint with the new texts fulfilling the old texts. I think the intent was one continuous Bible.

    I don’t know if that causes you to reevaluate (I doubt it) but it’s something else to consider in your future Biblical endeavors.

    Or by “language” do you just mean Greek as opposed to Hebrew, Latin, Swahili, etc.? In that case, no: The continuity of language only implies that they were writing in the same language. And they wrote in Greek because they wanted people to be able to read it. The intent was one continuous Bible–with the last bits in Greek.

    Yes, the Greek language. Because the Septuagint was written in Greek, the New Testament writers felt obligated to continue in Greek. That’s my theory. Apparently there was no compunction to return to the Hebrew. They must have been so steeped in the Septuagint Greek that they felt no obligation to write in Hebrew. Actually as I think on it, by the first century A.D. Hebrew may have already been a dead language. Jews spoke in Aramaic or Greek.

    It wasn’t dead. Plenty of Rabbis (at least) knew it, and Aramaic is (so I understand) not exactly a different language.

    But anyway . . .

    It’s an interesting theory, and I have a better one: Paul and all the Palestinian writers knew the Hebrew OT, and they wrote in Greek so that Gentiles and Greek-speaking Jews could read what they were writing. They had no obligation to write in Hebrew because they had no obligation to write in a language most people could not read. In a different context, they would have used Latin or English.

    Yes that’s possible too. Given that most people did not read in any language, I wonder who they were writing for. Paul was writing letters to be read in churches of Greek speakers, so that’s understandable. But who were the Gospel writers writing for? Something to think about.

    They were also writing for things being read in churches of Greek-speakers.

    Most people didn’t read, but they loved books. They were text-based people. Reading was an out-loud activity, and reading as a communal activity was normal.

    • #179
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