Selling Secrets: The Problem No One Is Talking About

 

The FBI has arrested nuclear engineer Jonathan Toebbe and his wife, Diana, for trying to sell government secrets, plans for building nuclear submarines, to an unnamed foreign power. It turns out the agent of the foreign power was an undercover FBI agent. They were picked up doing a dead drop, Jonathan dropping off the secrets with Diana standing guard. Bad stuff.

How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded, pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

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  1. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    With any luck it was.  But I think Jonathon Pollard is still in jail.

    Nope – released and relocated to Israel

    • #61
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    David Carroll:

    .

    Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

    I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

    If he were using his work email, your employer has the right to monitor all emails.  I assumed he worked for the Department of Defense.  You are told repeatedly, the government has a right to monitor your emails that come from a federally owned computer.  If you have a secret clearance, you better believe your emails to foreign powers are under scrutiny.  And rightly so.

    • #62
  3. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    Manny (View Comment):

    David Carroll:

    .

    Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

    I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

    If he were using his work email, your employer has the right to monitor all emails. I assumed he worked for the Department of Defense. You are told repeatedly, the government has a right to monitor your emails that come from a federally owned computer. If you have a secret clearance, you better believe your emails to foreign powers are under scrutiny. And rightly so.

    How dumb would you have to be to use a DoD email to solicit the sale of national secrets?

    • #63
  4. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    David Carroll (View Comment):
    How dumb would you have to be to use a DoD email to solicit the sale of national secrets?

    I can’t imagine.

    • #64
  5. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Victor Tango Kilo (View Comment):

    Diana Toebbe posted about politics on Facebook and Twitter, including posts and retweets supporting Democrats and opposing former President Donald Trump. She shared an image on Facebook of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg a day after her death in September 2020 with the quote, “Fight for the things you care about.”

    She also shared her support for the Black Lives Mater movement on Facebook and changed her Facebook profile in October 2016 to outline her photo with the words, “Women can stop Trump.”

    $20 says she has pronouns in her bio.

     

     

    https://heavy.com/news/diana-toebbe-jonathan-toebbe/

    The Toebbe’s have two kids who are now essentially orphaned. Of course, the first thing…will the Merrit Garland Justice department even prosecute them?

    • #65
  6. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    David Carroll:

    .

    Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

    I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

    If he were using his work email, your employer has the right to monitor all emails. I assumed he worked for the Department of Defense. You are told repeatedly, the government has a right to monitor your emails that come from a federally owned computer. If you have a secret clearance, you better believe your emails to foreign powers are under scrutiny. And rightly so.

    How dumb would you have to be to use a DoD email to solicit the sale of national secrets?

    Pretty stupid.  But they don’t seem too bright.  Perhaps their social media pages tipped the government in some way.

    • #66
  7. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Manny (View Comment):

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    David Carroll:

    .

    Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

    I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

    If he were using his work email, your employer has the right to monitor all emails. I assumed he worked for the Department of Defense. You are told repeatedly, the government has a right to monitor your emails that come from a federally owned computer. If you have a secret clearance, you better believe your emails to foreign powers are under scrutiny. And rightly so.

    How dumb would you have to be to use a DoD email to solicit the sale of national secrets?

    Pretty stupid. But they don’t seem too bright. Perhaps their social media pages tipped the government in some way.

    They were rabid lefties. BLM supporting and Trump hating. She was a teacher/indoctrinator. 

    • #67
  8. jmelvin Member
    jmelvin
    @jmelvin

    My guess is that the foreign power is France or Australia, but I could also see it being Japan or South Korea.  The first two are a guess based on the recent kerfuffle in that realm.  The other two are both independent entities that have their own nuclear power plant designs, but could use clarity for the sake of a boat based plant.

    Obviously these are wild guesses.

    • #68
  9. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    jmelvin (View Comment):

    My guess is that the foreign power is France or Australia, but I could also see it being Japan or South Korea. The first two are a guess based on the recent kerfuffle in that realm. The other two are both independent entities that have their own nuclear power plant designs, but could use clarity for the sake of a boat based plant.

    Obviously these are wild guesses.

    Interesting.  The AUKUS pact is giving Australia access to American nuclear powered submarine technology, and France already has them.  So, I suspect not. 

    • #69
  10. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    jmelvin (View Comment):

    My guess is that the foreign power is France or Australia, but I could also see it being Japan or South Korea. The first two are a guess based on the recent kerfuffle in that realm. The other two are both independent entities that have their own nuclear power plant designs, but could use clarity for the sake of a boat based plant.

    Obviously these are wild guesses.

    Interesting. The AUKUS pact is giving Australia access to American nuclear powered submarine technology, and France already has them. So, I suspect not.

    Even countries that already have good nuclear technology could be interested in finding out about newer and better technology that they didn’t have to pay for discovering themselves.

    But something like that could explain why they would turn down the deal – perhaps after copying the information just in case they find something useful in it.

    • #70
  11. Caryn Thatcher
    Caryn
    @Caryn

    BDB (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    Like Israel is the problem.

    Well, they did steal the plans for the Mirage, I think it was.

    Good.

    Was that the Kfir, or do I have the wrong middle-eastern power?

    Yes, Kfir (sweet pun, BTW*) is an enhancement on the French Mirage jet.  They were originally purchased from France, but when France embargoed Israel after the 6-day war and refused to provide planes that had been ordered to Israeli specifications, it was reverse-engineered.  Some espionage may also have been involved. 

    *The sweet pun is that kfir is lion cub in Hebrew (lion of Judah being associated with King David and Judaism in general) and also sounds a bit like kafir, which is Arabic for non-believer.

    • #71
  12. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    It might be novel if the FBI spent more time apprehending people who commit crimes without the FBI initiating a conspiracy to entrap them. 

     

    “Lead us not into temptation” seems like a minimal standard of criminal law. 

    • #72
  13. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    I suspect it pays companies that pays companies that pays companies that find volunteers to do it or leak it.

    • #73
  14. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    I think we need to think outside the box. These are the countries that already have nuclear subs:

    1 United States 72
    2 Russia 45
    3 People’s Republic of China 14
    4 United Kingdom 11
    5 France 10
    6 India 2

    That we are aware of

    • #74
  15. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    BDB (View Comment):

    And this is what happens when Hunter Biden’s painting don’t sell.

    I wonder what the discerning collector might pay for a Hunter original that included the text “Let’s go Brandon.” 

    • #75
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    I suspect it pays companies that pays companies that pays companies that find volunteers to do it or leak it.

    Well, I suppose that’s legal.  But if it were up to me, I’d just ignore the law.

    • #76
  17. Jack Shepherd Inactive
    Jack Shepherd
    @dnewlander

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    I think we need to think outside the box. These are the countries that already have nuclear subs:

    1 United States 72
    2 Russia 45
    3 People’s Republic of China 14
    4 United Kingdom 11
    5 France 10
    6 India 2

    That we are aware of

    I’m pretty sure the Pentagon is aware of any others, whether or not Wikipedia is.

    • #77
  18. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    I suspect it pays companies that pays companies that pays companies that find volunteers to do it or leak it.

    Well, I suppose that’s legal. But if it were up to me, I’d just ignore the law.

    No.  This way it can pay multiple levels of Democrats to do the work.  Most of the federal governments purpose is to support political cronies

    • #78
  19. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    I think we need to think outside the box. These are the countries that already have nuclear subs:

    1 United States 72
    2 Russia 45
    3 People’s Republic of China 14
    4 United Kingdom 11
    5 France 10
    6 India 2

    That we are aware of

    I’m pretty sure the Pentagon is aware of any others, whether or not Wikipedia is.

    Maybe or maybe not.  I would have more faith if they actually won a war.  Or even exit a war in a coherent manor.  I suspect they have a better grasp on being woke than the number of nuke boats on the planet.  One is relevant to their job the other is not.

    • #79
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