Selling Secrets: The Problem No One Is Talking About

David Carroll
David Carroll
7922
 

The FBI has arrested nuclear engineer Jonathan Toebbe and his wife, Diana, for trying to sell government secrets, plans for building nuclear submarines, to an unnamed foreign power. It turns out the agent of the foreign power was an undercover FBI agent. They were picked up doing a dead drop, Jonathan dropping off the secrets with Diana standing guard. Bad stuff.

How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded, pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the National Security Agency or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

I’m glad to see these treasonous criminals caught, but I am concerned about the methods used to catch them. What do those methods mean for our privacy and our freedom?

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  1. Jack Shepherd Inactive
    Jack Shepherd
    @dnewlander
    2:35 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    That’s why Five Eyes is a quid pro quo arrangement. Not for hire.

    • #31
  2. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob
    2:39 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would? 

    • #32
  3. Headedwest Coolidge
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest
    2:49 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    • #33
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis
    2:51 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    • #34
  5. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    3:09 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    Oh, an emanation of a penumbra.

    I’ve been trying to remember the decision but I can’t.  But it was sensible.

    • #35
  6. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    3:14 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    That’s why Five Eyes is a quid pro quo arrangement. Not for hire.

    Yes, and can’t quid pro quo be considered payment in kind?  It’s not like Gladys, a neighbor, spying on a house and on her own accord calling the police.

    • #36
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    3:15 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    • #37
  8. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    3:15 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    • #38
  9. Jack Shepherd Inactive
    Jack Shepherd
    @dnewlander
    3:16 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying arbitrarily snarfing emails is Unconstitutional. Which is why NSA uses the other countries in Five Eyes to do it for them. Which would never survive a legal challenge, were anyone stupid enough to actually challenge them on it. But they won’t, because the Feds will destroy them long before it gets anywhere near a court.

    I don’t claim that what these idiots tried to do wasn’t illegal and shouldn’t have been caught. But having had my private phone conversations with my father tapped in the past, I know that not everything the US government does is on the up-and-up.

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    That’s why Five Eyes is a quid pro quo arrangement. Not for hire.

    Yes, and can’t quid pro quo be considered payment in kind? It’s not like Gladys, a neighbor, spying on a house and on her own accord calling the police.

    You would think so, wouldn’t you? Apparently no one’s dared to try it out in a court of law.

    • #39
  10. Jack Shepherd Inactive
    Jack Shepherd
    @dnewlander
    3:24 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    As God is your witness, Les?

    🤣

    • #40
  11. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis
    3:25 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    Ar Ar, Earth humor!

    • #41
  12. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis
    3:25 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    • #42
  13. Headedwest Coolidge
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest
    3:29 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    • #43
  14. Jack Shepherd Inactive
    Jack Shepherd
    @dnewlander
    3:31 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    I think we need to think outside the box. These are the countries that already have nuclear subs:

    1 United States 72
    2 Russia 45
    3 People’s Republic of China 14
    4 United Kingdom 11
    5 France 10
    6 India 2

    • #44
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis
    3:32 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    I guess, but why would anyone think that Israel would be sufficiently adversarial to be interested in the clandestine information?

    (Plus, Israel probably has other ways to steal the information, and maybe already has.)

    • #45
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    3:32 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    Yes, that makes more sense.   But if China already had it, they might return the documents.

    • #46
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis
    3:33 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    Yes, that makes more sense. But if China already had it, they might return the documents.

    From what I read earlier in this thread, the documents WERE returned.

    • #47
  18. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster
    3:49 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):
    That’s not how the Internet works. Everything goes pretty much everywhere. It’s simply a matter of what device is actively listening.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mr+universe+serenity&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dmr%2buniverse%2bserenity%26FORM%3dHDRSC3&view=detail&mid=ECF8FF71B706300E625AECF8FF71B706300E625A&rvsmid=C6F657A6E6ECD84D51D0C6F657A6E6ECD84D51D0&FORM=VDQVAP

    • #48
  19. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj
    4:38 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    David Carroll:

    Here is what bothers me. How did the FBI (or the NSA or whoever) intercept that original email enabling the undercover operation? Does this mean that the FBI and/or NSA or someone else from the government is monitoring all emails sent by everyone to anywhere? Or are they just monitoring emails going to and from the unnamed foreign power?

    Yes. This was revealed by New Zealand in the early 2000s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

    I would assume that any communication sent to an IP address outside the US is at least scanned for certain keywords.    
    I suspect that it’s much more than that.

    • #49
  20. Dotorimuk Coolidge
    Dotorimuk
    @Dotorimuk
    5:15 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    JoelB (View Comment):

    I must be getting very cynical regarding the FBI, but is there anything about the Toebbes that is the least bit Trumpy and therefore fair game for a frame-up? Over to you @ fakejohnjanegalt

    The photo of the Toebbes’ house showed a Black Lives Matter sign, and from what I read, they are Lefties.

    • #50
  21. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator
    5:33 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    I have yet to read that there were no warrants involved.

    • #51
  22. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator
    5:38 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Not even an Ally, but maybe a partner. Any number of reasons to behave that way. 

    Especially if there was no benefits to them for the information and if they thought it would get them PNGd off they kept it.

    We have legal arrangements with numerous countries.

    • #52
  23. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters
    5:59 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jack Shepherd (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Somehow I can’t get all that upset if the FBI used a warrantless search to catch people trying to sell nuclear secrets.

    Except for the, you know, Unconstitutionality of it, of course.

    Is selling nuclear secrets constitutional?

    But anyway, please have some way for it to survive challenges. If nothing else, at least having exposed them has value.

    I’m not saying that.…

    So what you’re saying sounds like the NSA could pay private investigators to ransack our homes, so long as it doesn’t do it itself. But this is already unconstitutional.

    It would be illegal because of being home invasion/burglary/whatever, and the PIs could be prosecuted if caught, but it would not seem to be unconstitutional.

    I believe it’s been ruled unconstitutional, that the US government cannot pay people to do what they cannot legally do themselves.

    Yes, that’s right. The question comes up because the 4th amendment and 5th amendments only prohibit government violations of the rights mentioned.  But if a private person or entity is acting on behalf of, or as an agent of, the state, then the 4th A and 5th A protections extend to their conduct as well. 

    • #53
  24. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB
    6:07 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    Like Israel is the problem.  

    • #54
  25. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert
    6:22 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    Seen up the street from my home.

    We don’t know that the foreign power did not make copies of the material.

    I think it was Israel.

    • #55
  26. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    6:35 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    BDB (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    Like Israel is the problem.

    Well, they did steal the plans for the Mirage, I think it was.

    • #56
  27. W Bob Member
    W Bob
    @WBob
    6:47 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    Seen up the street from my home.

    We don’t know that the foreign power did not make copies of the material.

    I think it was Israel.

    The Toebbes are left wingers. Which means they probably hate Israel. But not commie countries.

    • #57
  28. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB
    7:52 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Flicker (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    Like Israel is the problem.

    Well, they did steal the plans for the Mirage, I think it was.

    Good.

    Was that the Kfir, or do I have the wrong middle-eastern power?

    • #58
  29. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster
    8:01 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):
    Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    I can only think of one.

    Turkey?

    No, that doesn’t fly.

    Seen up the street from my home.

    We don’t know that the foreign power did not make copies of the material.

    I think it was Israel.

    With any luck it was.  But I think Jonathon Pollard is still in jail.

    • #59
  30. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker
    11:09 PM EDT ⋅ Oct 12, 2021

    BDB (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    BDB (View Comment):

    Headedwest (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    W Bob (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    David Carroll: How did they get caught? It seems that Mr. Toebbe solicited the foreign power by email. Apparently, this email was intercepted by the FBI. An FBI agent responded pretending to be an agent of the foreign power.

    That is not how I read the first story I read about this.

    In the report I read – Toebbe gave a packet of documentation regarding Submarines to a foreign power – included in the packet were instruction on how to contact Mr Toebbe. The foreign power reported the contact to the FBI and returned the information (including the contact information).

    The Federal Bureau of Instigation (no relation) then used the contact information to instigate further sales of classified information.

    That’s what I saw reported too. Makes you wonder what foreign country it is. A country that Toebbe assumed was an adversary to the US but then acted as an ally would?

    Considering the silence about it, it might be China.

    If it was China, I would expect they photocopied the information first, and/or they already had it perhaps stolen another way.

    I was thinking Israel, but then somebody pointed out they have no subs, so what would they do with the information? But maybe this guy was dumb enough not to know.

    Like Israel is the problem.

    Well, they did steal the plans for the Mirage, I think it was.

    Good.

    Was that the Kfir, or do I have the wrong middle-eastern power?

    I don’t understand what middle eastern power are you referring to?

    • #60
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