Christian Doctrine: I Did Not Make It, It Is Making Me

 

“Do you see my bookshelves over there?” All heads would turn toward the thousands of books surrounding them in my classroom. “Do you think that’s real wood?” I would offer. “It feels like vinyl,” one would say, hands close enough to touch. “But it looks like real wood!” another would say.

I would then show them the back edge of an extra shelf; exposed particle board greeted their gaze. “Now the advertisement says,” I continued, “I can pick from cherry or walnut grains. But in all honesty, I’m simply buying a thin veneer of plastic, covering pressed wood.” My bookshelf illustration was about to bring home the truth. “This is exactly what false teaching is like,” I concluded, “It looks right, at first glance, but upon further inspection, it is shown to be wrong. Heresy depends on attracting our attention, then leading us astray.”

The word “heresy” comes from the Greek word meaning “to choose.” Any move toward heresy, toward falsehood, is choosing to step away from biblical teaching. As Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:16, “Watch your life and doctrine closely.” And there is the issue. What we believe, creates how we live. I think the Christian singer Rich Mullins said it best:

And I believe what I believe, is what makes me what I am / I did not make it, no it is making me / It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.

God’s truth is no veneer, no human invention. Yes, my bookshelves are still fake wood. But Christian Truth, the teaching of Scripture, makes us who we are, helping us keep a close watch on our life and doctrine. We embody God’s Truth for all to see.

For Truth in Two, this is Dr. Mark Eckel, president of the Comenius Institute, personally allowing God’s Truth to make me what I am.

.

Published in Religion & Philosophy
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  1. David Pettus Coolidge
    David Pettus
    @DavidPettus

    Enjoyed your post.  Lordy, how I miss Rich Mullins.

     

    • #31
  2. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    • #32
  3. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    Yeah, I’d say the Nicene Creed is kind of like those signs with a line across in front of carnival rides: “You have to be this tall for this ride.”

    • #33
  4. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Yes, to the final question, in my view.  They believe in someone that they call Jesus Christ, who bears no similarity to the Jesus described in the Scriptures.

    Yes, we agree.

    On the nested comment about Calvinism, I don’t think that you are correct about the Calvinist view.  If you’re interested, R.C. Sprole has a pretty good series about it on YouTube (here).  You may not end up agreeing, but it might give you a better understanding of the Calvinist view. 

    Original Calvinism believed in the five point TULIP, of which I think double pre-destination was at the heart.  In time that belief has eroded, especially after the several Great Awakenings.  Protestant Jacob Arminius was in complete disagreement with Calvin (and I believed fought battles over it) and formed his own denomination.  In time it seems that free will has won out in most Protestant denominations.

    The underlying question, about heresy, is a difficult one.  There is a huge chasm between Catholicism and Protestantism, which is usually ignored in public.  Debating it is contentious (which wouldn’t generally stop me) and unlikely to be effective (which does generally stop me).

    We could quote many verses.  I could quote Romans 10:9: “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”  I don’t think that it answers the question fully.  What does it mean to confess?  What conception of Jesus do you have?  What does it mean that He is “Lord”?

    We can go back and forth.  I wasn’t interested in that.  But since you bring it up, I can quote John 20:21-23:

    “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

    I can quote Paul about salvation through faith alone, and not by works, so that no one can boast.  And someone else can quote James about faith without works being dead.

    I can also quote St. Paul who says “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, but have not love, I gain nothing.”  And further down: “And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.”  (1Cor 1-13)

    Are you saying that Protestants don’t believe you need love for salvation?  Anyway, it’s complicated.  Yes, faith is a prerequisite for justification.  

    This all shows that heresy is so easy to find between Christians, which is my original point.

    • #34
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I’ve cut out this snippet to address this single issue. I appreciated the rest of your comment.

    I think that it’s quite clear that, in Christian teaching, those who rely on their own righteousness fall short, and are condemned. The later part of Hebrews addresses those who died before the coming of Christ, and it does indicate that there was some sort of forward-looking faith that God finds sufficient. This is mostly from Hebrews 11, the “hall of faith” chapter, but it includes some of the preceding and subsequent material.

    See I told you Flicker!  I replied before I saw this.

    • #35
  6. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    Obviously Unitarians and those that don’t profess in the Trinity, but I could swear there was some mainline Protestant denomination that did not.  But I can’t seem to find it.  So maybe not.

    • #36
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    Obviously Unitarians and those that don’t profess in the Trinity, but I could swear there was some mainline Protestant denomination that did not. But I can’t seem to find it. So maybe not.

    Unitarians are a different religion.

    Check some of the Pentecostal groups.

    But if they don’t accept the Trinity, I wouldn’t call them Christians either.

    Of course, that’s partly because I’m just using the Nicene Creed as my answer.  But that’s ok, because it’s the right answer.

    And there are other answers available that I think tend to coincide.  Ask me later.  Class is coming up.  My list of things to do is a real jerk today.

    • #37
  8. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Back to heresies.  It’s way more complicated than just saying you believe in Jesus Christ.  As I pointed out, and we agree, Islam and Church of Latter Day Saints, would fall into heresies, and I think we agree on Unitarians as well.  And that’s because of their understanding of the nature of Christ.  But most of the official heresies deal with the nature of Christ.  Here’s a list of just some: Adoptionism, Apollinarism, Arianism, Collyridianism, Docetism, Monarchianism, and so on.  You can read about them and see the complete list here.  

     

     

    • #38
  9. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    Obviously Unitarians and those that don’t profess in the Trinity, but I could swear there was some mainline Protestant denomination that did not. But I can’t seem to find it. So maybe not.

    Unitarians are a different religion.

    Check some of the Pentecostal groups.

    But if they don’t accept the Trinity, I wouldn’t call them Christians either.

    Of course, that’s partly because I’m just using the Nicene Creed as my answer. But that’s ok, because it’s the right answer.

    And there are other answers available that I think tend to coincide. Ask me later. Class is coming up. My list of things to do is a real jerk today.

    I always use the Nicene Creed in the past as the definition of Christianity too.  It just is.

    • #39
  10. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    I always use the Nicene Creed in the past as the definition of Christianity too.  It just is.

    Oh, I never do it in the past.

    My time machine broke.

    • #40
  11. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I always use the Nicene Creed in the past as the definition of Christianity too. It just is.

    Oh, I never do it in the past.

    My time machine broke.

    Yikes, my syntax was terrible there.  I meant to say that in the past I have used the Nicene Creed as thee definition of Christianity.

    • #41
  12. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I agree with your statement, the entire thing, but I wanted to highlight that part of your statement. “God judging “doing what is right,” well in some Protestant denominations that would be considered heresy. That would be “earning” salvation rather than faith alone. In those Protestant circles, believe it or not, I have seen all sorts of attacks on Mother Teresa for doing good.

    That depends on how tight they want the language to be.  But I’ll stand by it.  The works being evidence of faith.  We all will be either not judged because we’re written in the Book of Life, or or we will be judged and most likely condemned by our works when “the books of their works” are opened.

    • #42
  13. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Percival (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    There are some very significant differences between different traditions of Christianity. From the point of view of any one of them, are the others heretical, or at least that one element of the faith that discriminates them?

    Not necessarily heretical. Just wrong sometimes.

    Heresy is more than just error.

    I think the Nicene Creed is a very good line for identifying the difference.

    I agree. That would contain the bulk of Christians. Not all though.

    Any Christians come to mind who wouldn’t accept the Nicene Creed?

    Yeah, I’d say the Nicene Creed is kind of like those signs with a line across in front of carnival rides: “You have to be this tall for this ride.”

    You mean if you were ever taught it, right?  What about people who hear for the first time and convert on their death beds.

    • #43
  14. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I agree with your statement, the entire thing, but I wanted to highlight that part of your statement. “God judging “doing what is right,” well in some Protestant denominations that would be considered heresy. That would be “earning” salvation rather than faith alone. In those Protestant circles, believe it or not, I have seen all sorts of attacks on Mother Teresa for doing good.

    That depends on how tight they want the language to be. But I’ll stand by it. The works being evidence of faith. We all will be either not judged because we’re written in the Book of Life, or or we will be judged and most likely condemned by our works when “the books of their works” are opened.

    Exactly.  The intent is everything.  If you are doing it to work yourself to heaven, that is works righteousness.  If you are doing it out of faith in Christ because as we see all over the New Testament (especially Matt 25) He is commanding you to do it, then you are obeying Christ and have faith is His divinity.

    • #44
  15. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I’ve cut out this snippet to address this single issue. I appreciated the rest of your comment.

    I think that it’s quite clear that, in Christian teaching, those who rely on their own righteousness fall short, and are condemned. The later part of Hebrews addresses those who died before the coming of Christ, and it does indicate that there was some sort of forward-looking faith that God finds sufficient. This is mostly from Hebrews 11, the “hall of faith” chapter, but it includes some of the preceding and subsequent material.

    See I told you Flicker! I replied before I saw this.

    I noticed that.  I have no further comment.  I stand by what I wrote.  :)

    • #45
  16. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Back to heresies. It’s way more complicated than just saying you believe in Jesus Christ. As I pointed out, and we agree, Islam and Church of Latter Day Saints, would fall into heresies, and I think we agree on Unitarians as well. And that’s because of their understanding of the nature of Christ. But most of the official heresies deal with the nature of Christ. Here’s a list of just some: Adoptionism, Apollinarism, Arianism, Collyridianism, Docetism, Monarchianism, and so on. You can read about them and see the complete list here.

    Speaking of LDS, are you sure that not one single life-long member ever is saved?  I really take seriously, Condemn not and you will not be condemned.

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    If doctrinal purity is a cause to be condemned one had better be at least the only one in the world who’s right.

    • #46
  17. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I always use the Nicene Creed in the past as the definition of Christianity too. It just is.

    Oh, I never do it in the past.

    My time machine broke.

    Yikes, my syntax was terrible there. I meant to say that in the past I have used the Nicene Creed as thee definition of Christianity.

    Thee?  As in “to Thee?”

    • #47
  18. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I agree with your statement, the entire thing, but I wanted to highlight that part of your statement. “God judging “doing what is right,” well in some Protestant denominations that would be considered heresy. That would be “earning” salvation rather than faith alone. In those Protestant circles, believe it or not, I have seen all sorts of attacks on Mother Teresa for doing good.

    That depends on how tight they want the language to be. But I’ll stand by it. The works being evidence of faith. We all will be either not judged because we’re written in the Book of Life, or or we will be judged and most likely condemned by our works when “the books of their works” are opened.

    Exactly. The intent is everything. If you are doing it to work yourself to heaven, that is works righteousness. If you are doing it out of faith in Christ because as we see all over the New Testament (especially Matt 25) He is commanding you to do it, then you are obeying Christ and have faith is His divinity.

    Does faltering obedience count for naught?

    • #48
  19. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Flicker (View Comment):

    You mean if you were ever taught it, right?  What about people who hear for the first time and convert on their death beds.

    See Michael Witmer stuff above.

    • #49
  20. Mark Eckel Coolidge
    Mark Eckel
    @MarkEckel

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Mark Eckel (View Comment):

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Speaking of books, I heard a story on the news yesterday that due to the shortages of wood pulp, to make paper and paper goods, there are now shortages again. That includes new books, so publishers are hitting the skids. Back orders piling up. Another reason they are pushing to go digital. Then they can control what is published. A real book that you can hold or give as a gift may become much more special.

    I’m not sure that I really “like” this comment ;) but it is another reason to be troubled.

    If it’s not too much trouble, I would really appreciate the link if you can dig it up.

    Gratitude in advance.

    Yes – here it is:

    https://www.npr.org/2021/10/04/1043145212/supply-chain-issues-are-slowing-the-production-of-books-ahead-of-the-holidays

     

    Thank you!

    • #50
  21. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I’ve cut out this snippet to address this single issue. I appreciated the rest of your comment.

    I think that it’s quite clear that, in Christian teaching, those who rely on their own righteousness fall short, and are condemned. The later part of Hebrews addresses those who died before the coming of Christ, and it does indicate that there was some sort of forward-looking faith that God finds sufficient. This is mostly from Hebrews 11, the “hall of faith” chapter, but it includes some of the preceding and subsequent material.

    Jerry, I appreciate what you said.  And I’ve been thinking about it, and I don’t want to give the impression that God definitely acts on one way or another.

    Nonetheless, a few Scripture verses come to mind.

    There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.
    and
    And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    It becomes a question of conscience.  If the Holy Spirit leads you, or encourages you, or works in you to seek Him, and there is no one around to help you understand, how might God react.

    Well, perhaps God declares Himself and can be comprehended on some other wordless level:
    For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    No one at all seeks God unless God draws him.  I don’t know who is called, or how God draws him, or what condition of the heart God works in a man’s heart.  And I cannot say that God only accepts only certain words or a minimum of concrete knowledge in every circumstance and situation.

    Certainly no one is saved except for the blood of Christ, but how that blood is applied, and on whom, in any and all circumstances is I think God’s place to determine.

    • #51
  22. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Doctrine is vital to the maturity of a Christian . However, it can be a stumbling stone also. Our human nature always wants to drift toward works salvation . Correct doctrine can be used in this manner. 

    Faith is simple. The thief on the cross is a the best example. He just believed. 

    Even a child can understand. 

    1 Jesus loves me, this I know, 
    for the Bible tells me so. 
    Little ones to him belong; 
    they are weak, but he is strong. 

    Refrain: 
    Yes, Jesus loves me! Yes, Jesus loves me! 
    Yes, Jesus loves me! The Bible tells me so. 

    2 Jesus loves me he who died 
    heaven’s gate to open wide. 
    He will wash away my sin, 
    let his little child come in. [Refrain]

    3 Jesus loves me, this I know, 
    as he loved so long ago, 
    taking children on his knee, 
    saying, “Let them come to me.” [Refrain]

     

    If the Lord leaves remembrance of those who wont be in His Kingdom. I believe we all will be surprised at who is there and who is not.  

    • #52
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Back to heresies. It’s way more complicated than just saying you believe in Jesus Christ. As I pointed out, and we agree, Islam and Church of Latter Day Saints, would fall into heresies, and I think we agree on Unitarians as well. And that’s because of their understanding of the nature of Christ. But most of the official heresies deal with the nature of Christ. Here’s a list of just some: Adoptionism, Apollinarism, Arianism, Collyridianism, Docetism, Monarchianism, and so on. You can read about them and see the complete list here.

    Speaking of LDS, are you sure that not one single life-long member ever is saved? I really take seriously, Condemn not and you will not be condemned.

    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    If doctrinal purity is a cause to be condemned one had better be at least the only one in the world who’s right.

    Good question.  I’m going to speak personally as to what I think and it does not represent any church or doctrine.  I have a wide view of salvation.  I do not believe God judges one on knowing doctrine but adherence to love of God and love of neighbor as Christ says are the two great commandments.  If God is love (as declared in the epistles of John) I think He will take into account a lot of context on a person’s understanding of God.  Faith then is one’s reliance on that love, which in turn is I think an implied belief in God.  I do think that outright atheists have a problem since they are willfully denying God.  But ultimately God can do all things.  Again this is my personal view.

    • #53
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    I always use the Nicene Creed in the past as the definition of Christianity too. It just is.

    Oh, I never do it in the past.

    My time machine broke.

    Yikes, my syntax was terrible there. I meant to say that in the past I have used the Nicene Creed as thee definition of Christianity.

    Thee? As in “to Thee?”

    Thee as emphatic form for “the.”  

    • #54
  25. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Furthermore, I’ve always been curious about those who lived without the knowledge of even the name of Christ, but whom God says will be judged according to their consciences and naturally doing what is right.

    I agree with your statement, the entire thing, but I wanted to highlight that part of your statement. “God judging “doing what is right,” well in some Protestant denominations that would be considered heresy. That would be “earning” salvation rather than faith alone. In those Protestant circles, believe it or not, I have seen all sorts of attacks on Mother Teresa for doing good.

    That depends on how tight they want the language to be. But I’ll stand by it. The works being evidence of faith. We all will be either not judged because we’re written in the Book of Life, or or we will be judged and most likely condemned by our works when “the books of their works” are opened.

    Exactly. The intent is everything. If you are doing it to work yourself to heaven, that is works righteousness. If you are doing it out of faith in Christ because as we see all over the New Testament (especially Matt 25) He is commanding you to do it, then you are obeying Christ and have faith is His divinity.

    Does faltering obedience count for naught?

    I’m not exactly sure what you mean.  We all human and fail to live up to perfection.

    • #55
  26. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Doctrine is vital to the maturity of a Christian . However, it can be a stumbling stone also. Our human nature always wants to drift toward works salvation . Correct doctrine can be used in this manner.

    Faith is simple. The thief on the cross is a the best example. He just believed.

     

    I hear that example all the time but I think it’s flawed.  The thief is pinned to a cross and can do nothing in his dying moments.  If he were allowed to go free he would be then free to potentially sin, and subsequently choose to not be obedient and not feed the hungry, not clothe the naked, etc (Matt 25:31-46).  The thief’s situation on the cross dictates the moral choices that come before him.

    • #56
  27. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Manny (View Comment):

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Doctrine is vital to the maturity of a Christian . However, it can be a stumbling stone also. Our human nature always wants to drift toward works salvation . Correct doctrine can be used in this manner.

    Faith is simple. The thief on the cross is a the best example. He just believed.

    I hear that example all the time but I think it’s flawed. The thief is pinned to a cross and can do nothing in his dying moments. If he were allowed to go free he would be then free to potentially sin, and subsequently choose to not be obedient and not feed the hungry, not clothe the naked, etc (Matt 25:31-46). The thief’s situation on the cross dictates the moral choices that come before him.

    So, if it is flawed the thief is rotting in hell and Christ lied. I know you don’t believe that , just addressing your flawed statement.

    As for going his merry way and sinning. Well , welcome to the humane predicament , this is what we all do as well as being obedient.

    The example stands.  That’s why it was included in the text.

    And no, I don’t stand on simple believe ism . But we have the example. God looks into the heart and he is the judge. This is why I made the comment about all of us being surprised in eternity.

    • #57
  28. Lawst N. Thawt Inactive
    Lawst N. Thawt
    @LawstNThawt

    The OP speaks of truth based on scripture.  Scripture is the measuring line.  You can use it to measure everything else, but all those other things need to fit all of the applicable scripture.  If it fits one place, but not another, it doesn’t fit.  Some will not believe this next statement, but there are no contradictions in scripture; only misunderstanding or mystery.  It’s easy to read things that are not there. 

    Belief is a personal thing.  No matter what I say to someone else or what they say to me, we will each only believe what we will believe.  The conversation may plant a seed though and tiny seeds are known to split mighty boulders.  And we want those seeds.  They break up the boulders in our respective paths. 

    • #58
  29. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    I can offer a Catholic view, but as I view the world through a Catholic lens any errors are mine and not the Church.

    If someone is not a Catholic then heretic does not apply to a non-Catholic, although their beliefs may be heretical for a Catholic to believe.

    This brings me to baptisms for those who convert to Catholicism:

    And what exactly are the required elements? The Catechism explains that “the essential rite of the sacrament” involves a triple pouring of (or immersion in) water as the minister pronounces the words, “N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (CCC 1239-1240). This verbal formulation was given to the Church by Christ Himself, when he told the apostles to “go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). In sacramental theology, this is surely one of the clearest examples of a divine law that one can find! Theologians have held for centuries that the Church should do exactly what Christ taught us—check out St. Thomas Aquinas’ nearly 800-year-old explanation in his Summa Theologica (Tertia Pars, Q. 66, Art. 5).

    So any Protestant that was baptized using this formula does not need to be rebaptized. There is an exception:

    Individual Catholic bishops and priests have objected to any use of a non-Trinitarian formula, arguing that any baptism performed without specific mention of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was not valid. People who had been baptized in this way were frequently told that they must be re-baptized using the correct wording. But in the absence of any sort of official ruling from Rome, others, including some Catholics, continued to insist that using a formula that avoided “sexist” language could be permitted.

    In order to resolve this issue, the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith just a few months ago issued a response to this very question. Without providing any extensive explanations, it stated simply that baptisms performed “in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier,” or “in the name of the Creator, and of the Liberator, and of the Sustainer” are not valid. Persons baptized using either of these formulations must therefore be baptized again, using the proper form of the words. It seems safe to presume that if these two genderless formulations are invalid, other similar wordings would be too.

    • #59
  30. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Lawst N. Thawt (View Comment):

    The OP speaks of truth based on scripture.  Scripture is the measuring line.  You can use it to measure everything else, but all those other things need to fit all of the applicable scripture.  If it fits one place, but not another, it doesn’t fit.  Some will not believe this next statement, but there are no contradictions in scripture; only misunderstanding or mystery.  It’s easy to read things that are not there. 

     

    Agreed.  This is why it is a terrible idea to build doctrine on a single text. This leads to heresy. 

    I would like to clarify my view of the thief on the cross. It is thin gruel to base ones salvation on easy believe ism.  However, the thief is a good example that saving faith does not have to be accompanied with all sorts of correct doctrine . He simply believed who Jesus said he was and asked for mercy, and it was granted.  Simple faith.  

    • #60
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