It’s Not Heroic to Choke and Quit

 

I don’t want to be overly critical of Simone Biles’ decision to withdraw from the Olympic team’s competitions.  I haven’t followed gymnastics for years, but my impression is that Biles is widely considered to be the greatest female gymnast of all time.  Her ability and achievements are extraordinary.

During the first rotation in the team all-around competition, Biles had a disappointing vault.  She then pulled out of the competition, with varied explanations that seem unconvincing.  It looks, to me, like she briefly lost her mojo.  This would be, here’s that word again, disappointing, but understandable.  Nobody’s perfect.

Biles set herself up for this, to some extent.  She’s sometimes called the GOAT, meaning “greatest of all time.”  She apparently leaned into this hype, like Muhammad Ali, by wearing leotards bearing an image of a goat.  Humility is a wiser course, I think.  But again, I don’t want to dump on Biles, who is quite young and the young rarely display notable wisdom.

The thing that is strange, to me, has been the reaction in much of the media.  The narrative seems to be that Biles quitting was heroic, in order to take care of her “mental health.”  Here’s a sample of this reaction:

  • “The Radical Courage of Simone Biles’s Exit from the Team USA Olympic Finals.”  The New Yorker.
  • “Simone Biles’ Olympic withdrawal could be her greatest act of heroism.”  SBNation.
  • “The world was clamouring for the American to outdo her competitors as well as herself.  It took exceptional bravery for her to step back.”  The Guardian.
  • “As athletes, we’re told to tough it out.  It’s toxic masculinity at work, this idea that we should ignore our emotions and what our body needs.  We call what she did heroic.”  Time.

I dissent, not respectfully (yet).  I do not find it heroic to choke, and I do not find it heroic to quit after choking.

It is understandable, a bit disappointing, fine.  Maybe she was having a bad day, though all that we know is that she had a single bad vault.  Biles might or might not have done well on the remaining events.  We’ll never know, because she gave up.

We do expect more of our heroes.

But it’s the media reaction that is so bizarre, to me.  What in the world is going on here?  Is it just an attack on competence?  Is it the typical resentful, sour-grapes attitude of the ordinary?

Is it the victim narrative?  The silly Time article linked above says that gymnasts “are taught that their bodies are not their own.”  In sport that “sacrifices bodies, minds and lives for perfection.”  What?

Is it because Biles is female?  Is it because she is black? Is it because the media had hyped a black woman as the greatest athlete ever, just unbelievable, wait ’til you see her, she’ll blow your socks off . . . well, not so much.  Not that day.

So, apparently, the media has to lie about it.  To pretend that failure and worse, quitting, is heroic.  I do not see any justification for this narrative, and I do not see any reason to dissent “respectfully.”  I am open to a counter-argument, as perhaps I’m missing something.

Again, I don’t want to beat up on Simone Biles.  She’s had an amazing career.  She appears to have cracked under the pressure, at these particular Olympic Games.  That is sad, but not the end of the world.

You know, even Mighty Casey struck out.  There was no joy in Mudville that day, but that’s OK.  Casey was still a hero, just not a perfect one.

But I don’t recall anything about Casey walking away from the plate after his first strike, or making excuses.  That’s not what heroes do.

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  1. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    I mean… Charlotte’s comments alone. For real! Leave space for females to go after athleticism. But the culture shouldn’t be elevating them so far over the people ensuring the continuation of your retirement account.

    True. But the culture shouldn’t be elevating those women who go into the workforce over those who stay home to raise their children, either.

    What, don’t you think women should be encouraged to work instead of having children, even if it means the chicoms or the taliban take over the US?

    That’s not very consistent.

    ?  I think you intentionally misread what I wrote.

    • #121
  2. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    The best in female dance, gymnastics, and skating must be in possession of intensely low body fat ratios that shut down important female functions. That’s not healthy.

    Exactly.

    Jerry said somewhere in one of his two threads on the topic that dancing was an acceptably womanly activity. I’d like to know what the distinction is.

    He may have meant Astaire/Rogers.

    She did everything Fred did, but backwards and in high heels. I’d like to see him do that.

    • #122
  3. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Stina (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s not a simple either/or, but as Stina also pointed out, such activities can make it difficult or impossible for women to have children, and in any event it’s definitely not “fair” since, in essence, for one woman to not have her 2 children requires those 2 children to be had by someone(s) else, unless you’re content for humanity to fade away and disappear. That seems a pretty steep price to pay for women’s athletics.

    I’d rather have humanity fade away (or be dominated by more fecund societies) than tell women they have to have children.

    Are you in favor of nihilism?

    ?

    • #123
  4. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s not a simple either/or, but as Stina also pointed out, such activities can make it difficult or impossible for women to have children, and in any event it’s definitely not “fair” since, in essence, for one woman to not have her 2 children requires those 2 children to be had by someone(s) else, unless you’re content for humanity to fade away and disappear. That seems a pretty steep price to pay for women’s athletics.

    I’d rather have humanity fade away (or be dominated by more fecund societies) than tell women they have to have children.

    If I had to choose between these two options, I’d say all biological women should have babies.

    “Should” is not the same as “must.”

    • #124
  5. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s not a simple either/or, but as Stina also pointed out, such activities can make it difficult or impossible for women to have children, and in any event it’s definitely not “fair” since, in essence, for one woman to not have her 2 children requires those 2 children to be had by someone(s) else, unless you’re content for humanity to fade away and disappear. That seems a pretty steep price to pay for women’s athletics.

    I’d rather have humanity fade away (or be dominated by more fecund societies) than tell women they have to have children.

    If I had to choose between these two options, I’d say all biological women should have babies.

    “Should” is not the same as “must.”

    As a real American, @randywebster has this right. Every American individual has a right to choose how they conduct their life. We don’t like mandates, do we?

    • #125
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s not a simple either/or, but as Stina also pointed out, such activities can make it difficult or impossible for women to have children, and in any event it’s definitely not “fair” since, in essence, for one woman to not have her 2 children requires those 2 children to be had by someone(s) else, unless you’re content for humanity to fade away and disappear. That seems a pretty steep price to pay for women’s athletics.

    I’d rather have humanity fade away (or be dominated by more fecund societies) than tell women they have to have children.

    If I had to choose between these two options, I’d say all biological women should have babies.

    “Should” is not the same as “must.”

    I’m okay with “should” as long as we include appropriate recognition – and perhaps a bit of opprobrium – that women who don’t have children are, in effect, shifting their natural biological burden to other women.

    And yes, it is a natural, biological burden.  Men can’t have children.  And so women – as a whole – must replace not only themselves, but also men.  It’s just math.  If you have a population of 3 men and 3 women, and two of the women “choose” not to have children, the fourth woman must have 6 children just to keep things equal:  she has to replace herself, the other two women, and all three men.  The math is the same whether you have a population of 6, or 6 billion.  It just takes longer to get to zero, but the result is the same.

    • #126
  7. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    • #127
  8. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    DaveSchmidt (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s not a simple either/or, but as Stina also pointed out, such activities can make it difficult or impossible for women to have children, and in any event it’s definitely not “fair” since, in essence, for one woman to not have her 2 children requires those 2 children to be had by someone(s) else, unless you’re content for humanity to fade away and disappear. That seems a pretty steep price to pay for women’s athletics.

    I’d rather have humanity fade away (or be dominated by more fecund societies) than tell women they have to have children.

    If I had to choose between these two options, I’d say all biological women should have babies.

    “Should” is not the same as “must.”

    I’m okay with “should” as long as we include appropriate recognition – and perhaps a bit of opprobrium – that women who don’t have children are, in effect, shifting their natural biological burden to other women.

    And yes, it is a natural, biological burden. Men can’t have children. And so women – as a whole – must replace not only themselves, but also men. It’s just math. If you have a population of 3 men and 3 women, and two of the women “choose” not to have children, the fourth woman must have 6 children just to keep things equal: she has to replace herself, the other two women, and all three men. The math is the same whether you have a population of 6, or 6 billion. It just takes longer to get to zero, but the result is the same.

    I approve of your qualifying statements.  

    • #128
  9. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    • #129
  10. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    I’m not Christian or Jewish, so I don’t find that persuasive. And wishing that the US population (for example) was closer to 250 million instead of at 340 million and (always) rising, isn’t really the same as wanting it to go to zero.

    • #130
  11. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    I am

    • #131
  12. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    I’m not Christian or Jewish, so I don’t find that persuasive. And wishing that the US population (for example) was closer to 250 million instead of at 340 million and (always) rising, isn’t really the same as wanting it to go to zero.

    Don’t tell that the the NYT ethicist. He wanted the human population to go to zero. For the planet.

    • #132
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    I’m not Christian or Jewish, so I don’t find that persuasive. And wishing that the US population (for example) was closer to 250 million instead of at 340 million and (always) rising, isn’t really the same as wanting it to go to zero.

    Which is the point I’ve been making since the start:  each woman, on average, has to have two children just to keep things “static.”  Any less than that, and you do end up at zero, eventually.

    Even if you say “Well, it’s fine for the population to decline for now, so it’s no problem if women don’t want to have children,” when you get to whatever point of population you think is “good,” at that point women need to start having 2 children each, to KEEP that “good” point.  Otherwise it just keeps going down and down… to zero.  And how do you explain to THOSE LATER women that it was fine for EARLIER women to not have children, but NOT fine for THEM?  It seems to be the same argument that I and others are making now, but women today just don’t want it to apply to THEM

    • #133
  14. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    I’m not Christian or Jewish, so I don’t find that persuasive. And wishing that the US population (for example) was closer to 250 million instead of at 340 million and (always) rising, isn’t really the same as wanting it to go to zero.

    Which is the point I’ve been making since the start: each woman, on average, has to have two children just to keep things “static.” Any less than that, and you do end up at zero, eventually.

    Even if you say “Well, it’s fine for the population to decline for now, so it’s no problem if women don’t want to have children,” when you get to whatever point of population you think is “good,” at that point women need to start having 2 children each, to KEEP that “good” point. Otherwise it just keeps going down and down… to zero. And how do you explain to THOSE LATER women that it was fine for EARLIER women to not have children, but NOT fine for THEM? It seems to be the same argument that I and others are making now, but women today just don’t want it to apply to THEM

    Yes, I have understood your point, each time you made it. I guess I’m just not going to be as worried about it as you are. 

    • #134
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    “Be fruitful and multiply” is the first command.

    I expect fluctuations, but we should be encouraging a culture that doesn’t go to 0.

    I’m not Christian or Jewish, so I don’t find that persuasive. And wishing that the US population (for example) was closer to 250 million instead of at 340 million and (always) rising, isn’t really the same as wanting it to go to zero.

    Which is the point I’ve been making since the start: each woman, on average, has to have two children just to keep things “static.” Any less than that, and you do end up at zero, eventually.

    Even if you say “Well, it’s fine for the population to decline for now, so it’s no problem if women don’t want to have children,” when you get to whatever point of population you think is “good,” at that point women need to start having 2 children each, to KEEP that “good” point. Otherwise it just keeps going down and down… to zero. And how do you explain to THOSE LATER women that it was fine for EARLIER women to not have children, but NOT fine for THEM? It seems to be the same argument that I and others are making now, but women today just don’t want it to apply to THEM

    Yes, I have understood your point, each time you made it. I guess I’m just not going to be as worried about it as you are.

    I guess that makes sense, especially if you’re not religious.  Steyn also mentions in that best-interview-ever, that secular societies – and people – are basically present-day societies, they don’t really think there is any future, so all that matters is their own enjoyment in the here and now.

    Fortunately for those people, their parents didn’t feel that way.

    • #135
  16. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I guess that makes sense, especially if you’re not religious.  Steyn also mentions in that best-interview-ever, that secular societies – and people – are basically present-day societies, they don’t really think there is any future, so all that matters is their own enjoyment in the here and now.

    You totally get me.

    • #136
  17. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    Charlotte (View Comment): I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    Kinda puts the Ponzi-scheme-based society we now occupy into a rather ominous trajectory. Oh well, we had a good run while it lasted…

    • #137
  18. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    philo (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment): I’m not convinced that the human population should stay the same or increase forever.

    Kinda puts the Ponzi-scheme-based society we now occupy into a rather ominous trajectory. Oh well, we had a good run while it lasted…

    Ponzi schemes always collapse.

    • #138
  19. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    How is women (or girls) participating in competitive sports different in kind from women (or girls) participating in dance? Presumably once you get above a novice level, there is plenty of competition: slots in recitals, slots on high school dance teams, roles in musical theater productions. All of these activities demand focus, time, dedication, training, athletic ability and conditioning, etc. But I guess it’s okay to let girls dance because it’s… womanly? Do I have that right? What if the chick dancers aren’t “the best”? What if the dudes can jump higher and spin faster? Or does that not count because they’re not being manly? I’m confused.

    I think the high end of any female competition pushes women to unhealthy limits.

    The best in female dance, gymnastics, and skating must be in possession of intensely low body fat ratios that shut down important female functions. That’s not healthy. And to achieve those levels puts women through such extreme training and pressure that their bodies are physically abused to achieve the perfection sought at the high ends of competition.

    Men’s biological functions don’t shut down on tiny body fat ratios. They can achieve those ratios without the kind of abuse women go through.

    Two sports I would leave as exceptions to that – wrestling and jockey.

    I’m in the middle here. My daughter is a dancer and worked constantly and diligently at it. Very demanding. She didn’t get her period until age 19, and then it was sporadic. And she wants children someday. I’m all for her dancing, but Mother Nature is a bitch.

    • #139
  20. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Stina (View Comment):
    Two sports I would leave as exceptions to that – wrestling and jockey.

    I wrestled for eight years.  I don’t know about my body fat ratio;  I typically lost about 30 lbs. to get down to weight.  I don’t think it affected my sex life.

    • #140
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I guess that makes sense, especially if you’re not religious. Steyn also mentions in that best-interview-ever, that secular societies – and people – are basically present-day societies, they don’t really think there is any future, so all that matters is their own enjoyment in the here and now.

    You totally get me.

    But even there, you depend on other people having children even if you don’t, because you need their children to work at the businesses you want to go to, etc.  Even to provide your healthcare when you get old.  Unless you plan to just suddenly drop dead without ever needing anything.  And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…

    Really though, even if YOU don’t care about society/civilization going on, most other people do, and arguably civilizations have their own motivations too.

    There are already tax deductions etc for having children, but if it gets to a sufficient point that may have to be amplified.  Maybe something like a 50% tax on people who don’t have kids, to pay someone else to have them for you.  (In addition to their own, so the rate may end up going over 50%.)

    • #141
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Franco (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    How is women (or girls) participating in competitive sports different in kind from women (or girls) participating in dance? Presumably once you get above a novice level, there is plenty of competition: slots in recitals, slots on high school dance teams, roles in musical theater productions. All of these activities demand focus, time, dedication, training, athletic ability and conditioning, etc. But I guess it’s okay to let girls dance because it’s… womanly? Do I have that right? What if the chick dancers aren’t “the best”? What if the dudes can jump higher and spin faster? Or does that not count because they’re not being manly? I’m confused.

    I think the high end of any female competition pushes women to unhealthy limits.

    The best in female dance, gymnastics, and skating must be in possession of intensely low body fat ratios that shut down important female functions. That’s not healthy. And to achieve those levels puts women through such extreme training and pressure that their bodies are physically abused to achieve the perfection sought at the high ends of competition.

    Men’s biological functions don’t shut down on tiny body fat ratios. They can achieve those ratios without the kind of abuse women go through.

    Two sports I would leave as exceptions to that – wrestling and jockey.

    I’m in the middle here. My daughter is a dancer and worked constantly and diligently at it. Very demanding. She didn’t get her period until age 19, and then it was sporadic. And she wants children someday. I’m all for her dancing, but Mother Nature is a bitch.

    Are you sure it was a good idea to be all for her dancing?

    • #142
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Two sports I would leave as exceptions to that – wrestling and jockey.

    I wrestled for eight years. I don’t know about my body fat ratio; I typically lost about 30 lbs. to get down to weight. I don’t think it affected my sex life.

    That’s part of the point:  It mostly doesn’t, for men.

    • #143
  24. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…


    • #144
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…


    I think it’s important to not let people have too much of a la-de-da attitude about some pretty serious things.

    It’s like Randy saying that he’d rather have society fade away or be overtaken by “more fecund” societies, than tell women to have babies.  Those more fecund societies have women who are having babies.  And if they’re less civilized, who probably suffers the most in them?  The women.  So, Randy is saying he’d rather THOSE women suffer.  Even if he doesn’t think he is saying that.  It’s like people who voted for Biden, saying they didn’t vote for all the stupid/crazy/dangerous stuff he’s doing.  Well, actually, yes they did.

    • #145
  26. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    Okay, I understand the comments on not quitting. 

    However, It seems that Simon Biles was molested ( or at least she has accused the perp of that) by team    doc Larry Nasser   which has caused her great emotional trauma.  Nasser  has also been accused by several other girls on the team, which  gives credence for that claim.  That may be  why she folded under pressure. 

    As a father of a daughter who has been date raped I feel for her.   I think people need to give her some slack. 

    • #146
  27. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…


    I think it’s important to not let people have too much of a la-de-da attitude about some pretty serious things.

    I’m so thankful that you’re here to show me the error of my ways.

    • #147
  28. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…


    I think it’s important to not let people have too much of a la-de-da attitude about some pretty serious things.

    I’m so thankful that you’re here to show me the error of my ways.

    It’s a lousy, thankless job, but apparently someone needs to do it.

    • #148
  29. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Charlotte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    And then rot in the street because nobody had children to bury you…


    I think it’s important to not let people have too much of a la-de-da attitude about some pretty serious things.

    I’m so thankful that you’re here to show me the error of my ways.

    It’s a lousy, thankless job, but apparently someone needs to do it.

    I’m inspired and humbled by your heroism.

    • #149
  30. DaveSchmidt Coolidge
    DaveSchmidt
    @DaveSchmidt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):
    Two sports I would leave as exceptions to that – wrestling and jockey.

    I wrestled for eight years. I don’t know about my body fat ratio; I typically lost about 30 lbs. to get down to weight. I don’t think it affected my sex life.

    That’s part of the point: It mostly doesn’t, for men.

    And that takes us back to an earlier point in the discussion.

    • #150
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