Freedom Is a Tricky Thing

 

“The Republican Party is broken,” writes Brandi Love, a self-identified “Conservative PornStar who writes for the Federalist,” according to her Twitter bio. Brandi was an attendee of Turning Point USA’s Student Action Summit. A conservative gathering for the young, hip, and constitutionally-minded designed to galvanize future conservative leaders. The summit features many of the stars of the conservative movement from the Daily Wire’s Michael Knowles to Dr. Ben Carson.

According to the TPUSA website:

Turning Point USA’s Student Action Summit is an invite-only event primarily intended for students between the ages of 15 and 26. If you are an adult wishing to attend, we have a limited number of adult tickets available.

Brandi Love was the holder of one of those limited adult tickets.

She publicized that she would be going live from her hotel at the conference on her website onlybrandi.com. She added she would be doing so, “behind the paywall of my OnlyFans (So we don’t offend the low T white nationalist religious zealots.)”

She later had her invitation revoked, and the chasm between what Brandi defines as “conservatives” and “social conservatives” was revealed.

She accused Twitter commenters who disagreed with her of “once again mixing Social Conservatism and Conservatism.”

The question arises, is there a viable conservative movement that precludes social conservatism?

You can spot a TPUSA student from a mile away in their “Big Gov Sucks” masks and hip t-shirts with slogans like “save the bees and the republic.” Self-described, TPUSA is the “community organizers of the right.” The end goal, according to their mission, is the promotion of freedom.

Freedom is a tricky thing. It is seen as both a means and an end. Freedom is a prerequisite for a moral society, and simultaneously it is impossible to maintain freedom without a moral populace.

The question to wrestle with is why be free? If freedom itself is the aim, then it feels disingenuous to exclude Brandi Love from the TPUSA event. In the most basic meaning of the word, shouldn’t she be free to attend? This is the hypocrisy Brandi has taken to Twitter to point out.

Perhaps, we as conservatives have made a mistake in our messaging– inviting more into the fold and expanding the conservative base at the risk of losing the soul of what we set out to do.

What did we set out to do?

Win elections? By all means, bring in as many people as possible. It’s a numbers game and we need them all.

Beat the Democrats? Again, a numbers game. Bring them all on.

Restore human decency, order, and alignment with creation? We have slipped off track.

Freedom itself is not an end; it’s a doorway. There are many things I do not want the freedom to do:

The freedom to take a life.

The freedom to abuse a child.

The freedom to buy and sell my sexuality and the sexuality of others.

As our founders knew, to pursue the highest life, we needed freedom. But what good is freedom if it is used to justify baseness?

The natural end of the libertarian leanings of the conservative movement is virtueless anarchy–a world where we not only allow, but accommodate and support that which we know to be destructive.

There is a balance to strike between supporting the freedom of others, while not allowing what they do with their freedom to define the entire movement. There is the possibility for nuance. That is, as long as we are honest about our aims.

I aim for a high-minded society (that is, a society working to create heaven on earth) full of healthy people working in conjunction with creation and the creator. Freedom is a wonderful vehicle for that aim.

The totalitarian Soviet Union denied their citizens freedom which prevented them from achieving a higher ideal. In that case, freedom was still a doorway, and once it shut, the people were hard-pressed to rise above depravity.

But freedom is a doorway, nonetheless, on the way to something bigger than even freedom itself. There lies the rallying call of the conservative movement. It is a call to restore order–a call to connect to higher ideals.

Perhaps the message isn’t simply “come as you are,” but rather, “come as you are and then get better.” We can ask each other to enter the doorway of freedom and then keep walking. In that way, the movement is not a fold that holds as many sheep as possible, but rather a launching pad to a more meaningful life.

The religious world is also stuck in the doorway, grappling with the same problem as the conservative movement. The youth in the faith have had enough of “coffee house Christianity” and the like. They see through the baseless and easygoing self-help teachings and are begging to move past the elementary — to be pushed, to expand their knowledge, and to aim higher.

The modern church thought it would bring in more people if the church more resembled everywhere else. In doing so, they have destroyed the sanctity of the Holy Spaces and reduced the pursuit of faith to Chicken Soup for the Soul. (A book I loved as a young girl, by the way, but no substitute for in-depth spiritual studies.)

The conservative movement, like the church, has attempted to behave like the audience they want to reach in an effort to grow the base. In doing so, the members they recruit are denied any opportunities for growth, challenge, and pursuit of higher ideals.

Comfort and weak-minded inclusion of all ideas is the best friend who justifies your drinking problem. She expresses friendship but ensures you never overcome your addiction.

This is, of course, a more ideological than political discussion. Many conservatives embrace the big tent philosophy to win elections. But the conservative movement does not end (or even begin) at the ballot box.

This is not an argument to avoid allyship. As the common saying goes, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” I believe that wholeheartedly. I love to see the unexpected alliances rising to defeat damaging Marxist ideas and their various manifestations. I pursue these allyships, as we all should. But if our movement is unable to be inclusive while simultaneously holding our standards, then what good do we offer the people we are including anyway?

What good is a conservative movement that doesn’t address the whole of a human being–political, spiritual, economic, relational?

If conservatism doesn’t stand for the American family–an institution proven over and over again to benefit us and our neighbors, then why have a movement?

If conservatism can’t stand for the sacredness of human sexuality, then why have a movement?

If the conservative movement is just about electing the right people, or worse, a cloaked and seductive march towards anarchy, then why have a movement?

As we become wrapped up in the game of growth, the game of numbers, we have to stay connected to why we do what we do–to what end?

I argue that freedom alone is not a satisfying end.

Of course, our founders took for granted that freedom would provide the platform for the more important work of maintaining a moral society deserving of that freedom in the first place. The opinions of the faith were so commonplace they were considered self-evident. In fact, the faith of early Americans is what made freedom self-evident.

But freedom is a tricky thing, and what we do with it matters.

Mikayla Goetz is a renegade actress turned conservative storyteller. Since receiving her B.F.A. in Theatre Arts from Coastal Carolina University, Mikayla has worked as a story developer, writer, and consultant with armed service members, veterans, and Jewish-Ukrainian refugees. She has led the development of plays, film work, community initiatives, and an audio series. Mikayla is the Host of the SomethingBurger Podcast and a regular voice on AM 950-Orlando.

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  1. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    As a prisoner of war, an analogy not too far from reality, we resolve not to give the enemy propaganda fodder. So even if I hate hot dogs and think baseball is boring and stupid, I will not engage in that conversation with my captors to bond with them so they don’t see Americans as monolithic.

    Very good analogy. Long ago, when I was at USAFA, one of the things I was required to memorize is the US Code of Conduct. It was changed in 1988, so if I am called upon to recite it I remember the 1984 version.

    It does explain your analogy as well as explain why some conservatives get so frustrated with Never Trumpers. See for yourself.

    US Code of Conduct

    … Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Every time a purported conservative agrees or commiserates with the left they are making an “oral or written statement … harmful to the cause.”

    The left never does that.

    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order.  Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    [redacted – off topic]

    • #121
  2. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    As a prisoner of war, an analogy not too far from reality, we resolve not to give the enemy propaganda fodder. So even if I hate hot dogs and think baseball is boring and stupid, I will not engage in that conversation with my captors to bond with them so they don’t see Americans as monolithic.

    Very good analogy. Long ago, when I was at USAFA, one of the things I was required to memorize is the US Code of Conduct. It was changed in 1988, so if I am called upon to recite it I remember the 1984 version.

    It does explain your analogy as well as explain why some conservatives get so frustrated with Never Trumpers. See for yourself.

    US Code of Conduct

    … Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Every time a purported conservative agrees or commiserates with the left they are making an “oral or written statement … harmful to the cause.”

    The left never does that.

    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order. Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    You have it in your head too much that the ground that the left takes can be taken back. 

    • #122
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    As a prisoner of war, an analogy not too far from reality, we resolve not to give the enemy propaganda fodder. So even if I hate hot dogs and think baseball is boring and stupid, I will not engage in that conversation with my captors to bond with them so they don’t see Americans as monolithic.

    Very good analogy. Long ago, when I was at USAFA, one of the things I was required to memorize is the US Code of Conduct. It was changed in 1988, so if I am called upon to recite it I remember the 1984 version.

    It does explain your analogy as well as explain why some conservatives get so frustrated with Never Trumpers. See for yourself.

    US Code of Conduct

    … Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Every time a purported conservative agrees or commiserates with the left they are making an “oral or written statement … harmful to the cause.”

    The left never does that.

    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order. Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    You have it in your head too much that the ground that the left takes can be taken back.

    And that it doesn’t do more damage, even in the meantime, than Trump’s supposed “cult of personality.”

    Also, think about this:  If Trump had won (as reported, which I think he really did), 1/6 wouldn’t have happened.

    So, I think I’ll blame 1/6 (to the extent someone wants to believe it was so awful) on people like Gary who should have voted for Trump, but didn’t, for their own selfish reasons.

    • #123
  4. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    You’ve never explained how voting for someone worse than Trump in all the ways you claim Trump is and won’t implement any conservative policies was the right move. You don’t like Trump’s boorish manners and mean words. Biden helped make Bork a verb, led the “high tech lynching of Justice Thomas”, continued to call the man involved in his first wife’s fatal car accident a drunk after being told many times it wasn’t true, just to name three quickly off the top of my head. You kept telling us for four years that Trump’s father had Alzheimer’s and it’s only a matter of time before Trump starts showing the signs. Biden was displaying early signs of dementia during the campaign and it’s only getting worse now that he’s been installed.

    For every negative in your Trump column it is worse in the Biden column. The few positives you grant Trump (judges, taxes, etc.) are also negatives in the Biden column. Why was Biden the right choice?

    • #124
  5. DrewInWisconsin, Oaf Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Oaf
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Guys, don’t let this thread be hijacked! We avoided it after an attempt was made earlier. Let’s continue with the actual subject.

    • #125
  6. She Member
    She
    @She

    kedavis (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    Personally, I think porn is icky — and destructive to individuals and society.

    Oh, so do I. But I’m with Lileks here:

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    If I knew for certain that a presidential candidate would cut taxes, reduce regulation, pull out of the Paris Accords, scrap the Iranian deal, put the screws to China, oppose illegal immigration, and encourage energy production, I wouldn’t care if he’d been indifferent to religion his entire life and slept with a porn star. I wouldn’t admire him, but I’ll take the bigger wins.

    And I’d reserve the right to say that his personal proclivities and lack of impulse control are concerning, without that necessarily consigning me to the flames of the irredeemable.

    The biggest problem we seem to get from that is the building impression that it’s okay to vote against that candidate the next time around, because they’re so personally icky, even if the other side has fielded someone much worse such as a Biden.

    Who is this “we” you speak of? Those who believe it’s out-of-bounds to criticize Trump for anything at all?

    You, or anyone else, shouldn’t be getting any sort of “building impression” from what I said. Please don’t invent penumbrae of meaning that don’t exist. If I meant to say, “next time, vote against the candidate you think is personally icky, even if the other side has fielded someone much worse,” you’d have received that message from me loud and clear. Trust me.

    I’m not sure you read the entirety of my comment, but I think you sorta made the point of it for me.

    Not the point I was making. And in that case, “we” means the country as a whole.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    But I can see why others might hesitate to “reply” to your comments, you seem to take things personally.

    Not very many others, actually, if history is any guide ;)

    kedavis (View Comment):
    She seemed to think I was somehow referring to her personally

    You were responding directly to a comment of mine, and you started out with the words “The biggest problem we seem to get from that [which I–not unreasonably, I think– took to mean the thoughts expressed in my comment] is the building impression that . . . ” followed by an unsupportable assertion of your thoughts about what my words might have meant.  I clarified for you the actual meaning (which is quite consonant with the literal meaning), rather than leaving it up to any mistaken impression you or others might get from my comment.  I’m not responsible for a misinterpretation of my words, but given the chance to correct it, I generally fall on the side of “do it.”  So I did.

    Franco (View Comment):
    If, in this environment, that is basically war, one shouldn’t be in any mood to pile on with petty criticisms. You may well be trying to express objectivity with valid and nuanced critiques, but you are helping the enemy because they care not a whit to give you credit for balanced views, they will just use your example to trash people who defend Trump as being in a cult of personality, and use your example as a cudgel.

    Much better, not because I necessarily agree with the totality of it, but because it’s an actual position.  And, BTW, I do agree with @franco that “Brandi Love” (IMHO a shameless self-promoter and attention pig) is a poor test case for most of this discussion, as should be quite clear from my comments earlier in the thread.

    I’m afraid the fact that I am labeled by one side as a raving Trumpster, and by the other as not pure enough to be considered reliable, isn’t something that stops me speaking my mind, no matter how irritating a few may find it.  Those entrenched on the far reaches of both sides are probably beyond help and won’t be moved; but I think that there are quite a few who can be picked off along the continuum.  At least, in my person-to-person, IRL, interactions, I’ve found that to be the case with a number of my acquaintances, several of whom I’ve been able to nudge in a more healthy (that is, rightward) direction over the last three or four years. I think that’s likely a more productive use of my time.

    • #126
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    You’ve never explained how voting for someone worse than Trump in all the ways you claim Trump is and won’t implement any conservative policies was the right move. You don’t like Trump’s boorish manners and mean words. Biden helped make Bork a verb, led the “high tech lynching of Justice Thomas”, continued to call the man involved in his first wife’s fatal car accident a drunk after being told many times it wasn’t true, just to name three quickly off the top of my head. You kept telling us for four years that Trump’s father had Alzheimer’s and it’s only a matter of time before Trump starts showing the signs. Biden was displaying early signs of dementia during the campaign and it’s only getting worse now that he’s been installed.

    For every negative in your Trump column it is worse in the Biden column. The few positives you grant Trump (judges, taxes, etc.) are also negatives in the Biden column. Why was Biden the right choice?

    Because Reasons.

    • #127
  8. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    I said this before, but if you want to see what the Biden win has wrought for the country and desperate illegal immigrants, watch the Wednesday Hannity. You may have it on demand on your cable system.

    • #128
  9. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    She (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    Personally, I think porn is icky — and destructive to individuals and society.

    Oh, so do I. But I’m with Lileks here:

    James Lileks (View Comment):
    If I knew for certain that a presidential candidate would cut taxes, reduce regulation, pull out of the Paris Accords, scrap the Iranian deal, put the screws to China, oppose illegal immigration, and encourage energy production, I wouldn’t care if he’d been indifferent to religion his entire life and slept with a porn star. I wouldn’t admire him, but I’ll take the bigger wins.

    And I’d reserve the right to say that his personal proclivities and lack of impulse control are concerning, without that necessarily consigning me to the flames of the irredeemable.

    The biggest problem we seem to get from that is the building impression that it’s okay to vote against that candidate the next time around, because they’re so personally icky, even if the other side has fielded someone much worse such as a Biden.

    Who is this “we” you speak of? Those who believe it’s out-of-bounds to criticize Trump for anything at all?

    You, or anyone else, shouldn’t be getting any sort of “building impression” from what I said. Please don’t invent penumbrae of meaning that don’t exist. If I meant to say, “next time, vote against the candidate you think is personally icky, even if the other side has fielded someone much worse,” you’d have received that message from me loud and clear. Trust me.

    I’m not sure you read the entirety of my comment, but I think you sorta made the point of it for me.

    Not the point I was making. And in that case, “we” means the country as a whole.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    But I can see why others might hesitate to “reply” to your comments, you seem to take things personally.

    Not very many others, actually, if history is any guide ;)

    kedavis (View Comment):
    She seemed to think I was somehow referring to her personally

    You were responding directly to a comment of mine, and you started out with the words “The biggest problem we seem to get from that [which I–not unreasonably, I think– took to mean the thoughts expressed in my comment] is the building impression that . . . ” followed by an unsupportable assertion of your thoughts about what my words might have meant. I clarified for you the actual meaning (which is quite consonant with the literal meaning), rather than leaving it up to any mistaken impression you or others might get from my comment. I’m not responsible for a misinterpretation of my words, but given the chance to correct it, I generally fall on the side of “do it.” So I did.

    Franco (View Comment):
    If, in this environment, that is basically war, one shouldn’t be in any mood to pile on with petty criticisms. You may well be trying to express objectivity with valid and nuanced critiques, but you are helping the enemy because they care not a whit to give you credit for balanced views, they will just use your example to trash people who defend Trump as being in a cult of personality, and use your example as a cudgel.

    Much better, not because I necessarily agree with the totality of it, but because it’s an actual position. And, BTW, I do agree with @ franco that “Brandi Love” (IMHO a shameless self-promoter and attention pig) is a poor test case for most of this discussion, as should be quite clear from my comments earlier in the thread.

    I’m afraid the fact that I am labeled by one side as a raving Trumpster, and by the other as not pure enough to be considered reliable, isn’t something that stops me speaking my mind, no matter how irritating a few may find it. Those entrenched on the far reaches of both sides are probably beyond help and won’t be moved; but I think that there are quite a few who can be picked off along the continuum. At least, in my person-to-person, IRL, interactions, I’ve found that to be the case with a number of my acquaintances, several of whom I’ve been able to nudge in a more healthy (that is, rightward) direction over the last three or four years. I think that’s likely a more productive use of my time.

    I think you are the same side I am. 

     

    • #129
  10. Mike Rapkoch Member
    Mike Rapkoch
    @MikeRapkoch

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    As a prisoner of war, an analogy not too far from reality, we resolve not to give the enemy propaganda fodder. So even if I hate hot dogs and think baseball is boring and stupid, I will not engage in that conversation with my captors to bond with them so they don’t see Americans as monolithic.

    Very good analogy. Long ago, when I was at USAFA, one of the things I was required to memorize is the US Code of Conduct. It was changed in 1988, so if I am called upon to recite it I remember the 1984 version.

    It does explain your analogy as well as explain why some conservatives get so frustrated with Never Trumpers. See for yourself.

    US Code of Conduct

    … Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Every time a purported conservative agrees or commiserates with the left they are making an “oral or written statement … harmful to the cause.”

    The left never does that.

    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order. Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    Moderator’s Note:

    Gary, there is no mention of Trump in this post. This comment is clearly an attempt to hijack the post. Please have some self-restraint.

    • #130
  11. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order.  Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    Nah, too judgmental to be an actual Christian.

    • #131
  12. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Mike Rapkoch (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    As a prisoner of war, an analogy not too far from reality, we resolve not to give the enemy propaganda fodder. So even if I hate hot dogs and think baseball is boring and stupid, I will not engage in that conversation with my captors to bond with them so they don’t see Americans as monolithic.

    Very good analogy. Long ago, when I was at USAFA, one of the things I was required to memorize is the US Code of Conduct. It was changed in 1988, so if I am called upon to recite it I remember the 1984 version.

    It does explain your analogy as well as explain why some conservatives get so frustrated with Never Trumpers. See for yourself.

    US Code of Conduct

    … Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Every time a purported conservative agrees or commiserates with the left they are making an “oral or written statement … harmful to the cause.”

    The left never does that.

    Mike Pence often says that he is a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican in that order. Well me too, except that I’d add “an American” in second place.

    Because I am an American and a Conservative, I opposed Trump, and I think that his behavior since the election and on 1/6 show that I made the right choice.

    Moderator’s Note:

    Gary, there is no mention of Trump in this post. This comment is clearly an attempt to hijack the post. Please have some self-restraint.

    Dear Mod,

    While the original post did not include Trump in it, the comments then veered into the Bushes and Compassionate Conservatism, and attacks on NT’s and NAT’s.  I was following those comments.  That having been said, I respect your authority in this area, and will exit this thread. 

    Gary

    • #132
  13. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    He says, after in effect duplicating one of his NT comments AGAIN…

    • #133
  14. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Dear Mod,

    While the original post did not include Trump in it, the comments then veered into the Bushes and Compassionate Conservatism, and attacks on NT’s and NAT’s.  I was following those comments.  That having been said, I respect your authority in this area, and will exit this thread. 

    Gary

    Pathetic 

    • #134
  15. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    One of the fundamentals about freedom, is the freedom to be wrong. 

    Free people have a right to associate freely with people as they choose, even if it is wrong. 

    • #135
  16. Gazpacho Grande' Coolidge
    Gazpacho Grande'
    @ChrisCampion

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Gazpacho Grande’ (View Comment):
    Funny, Trump won and not through a massive appeal to pro-life voters. Folks who vote on wedge issues are probably going to vote for the party that most closely aligns with the wedge. They may not come out in droves if they don’t feel like their issue is at risk in some way, but they’ll still come out.

    Except that he did appeal to religious conservatives. Don’t you remember the hubbub around here about evangelicals being hypocritical for supporting Trump? You’re right that he didn’t position himself as a holy roller, but he positioned himself as someone who takes holy rollers and their issues seriously, particularly as folded into the cancel culture and left shift.

    Yeah I haven’t forgotten anything.  I did use the word “massive” above, meaning it wasn’t a front and center part of his campaign, all the time.

    I agree that they’ll still come out.  They’ll do that no matter who is running and likely vote the ticket.

    • #136
  17. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Gazpacho Grande' (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Gazpacho Grande’ (View Comment):
    Funny, Trump won and not through a massive appeal to pro-life voters. Folks who vote on wedge issues are probably going to vote for the party that most closely aligns with the wedge. They may not come out in droves if they don’t feel like their issue is at risk in some way, but they’ll still come out.

    Except that he did appeal to religious conservatives. Don’t you remember the hubbub around here about evangelicals being hypocritical for supporting Trump? You’re right that he didn’t position himself as a holy roller, but he positioned himself as someone who takes holy rollers and their issues seriously, particularly as folded into the cancel culture and left shift.

    Yeah I haven’t forgotten anything. I did use the word “massive” above, meaning it wasn’t a front and center part of his campaign, all the time.

    I agree that they’ll still come out. They’ll do that no matter who is running and likely vote the ticket.

    I didn’t mean that Tump was making overt appeals to evangelicals (although he did that too), I meant that evangelicals found him appealing and not simply the least bad option. He was speaking to issues that evangelicals and socons care about in a way that the others were not. He was signaling that he would fight the culture war instead of the organized retreat we’ve seen the last several decades.

    • #137
  18. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Gazpacho Grande’ (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Gazpacho Grande’ (View Comment):
    Funny, Trump won and not through a massive appeal to pro-life voters. Folks who vote on wedge issues are probably going to vote for the party that most closely aligns with the wedge. They may not come out in droves if they don’t feel like their issue is at risk in some way, but they’ll still come out.

    Except that he did appeal to religious conservatives. Don’t you remember the hubbub around here about evangelicals being hypocritical for supporting Trump? You’re right that he didn’t position himself as a holy roller, but he positioned himself as someone who takes holy rollers and their issues seriously, particularly as folded into the cancel culture and left shift.

    Yeah I haven’t forgotten anything. I did use the word “massive” above, meaning it wasn’t a front and center part of his campaign, all the time.

    I agree that they’ll still come out. They’ll do that no matter who is running and likely vote the ticket.

    I didn’t mean that Tump was making overt appeals to evangelicals (although he did that too), I meant that evangelicals found him appealing and not simply the least bad option. He was speaking to issues that evangelicals and socons care about in a way that the others were not. He was signaling that he would fight the culture war instead of the organized retreat we’ve seen the last several decades.

    He also didn’t appear to hate them the way Dems do.

    • #138
  19. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    He also didn’t appear to hate them the way Dems do.

    He even showed up at church one time just to ask them to pray for him.

    The pastor of that church immediately had to defend the act of praying over someone like President Trump.

    Unlike the folks at TPUSA with regard to Ms Love.

    • #139
  20. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    He also didn’t appear to hate them the way Dems do.

    He even showed up at church one time just to ask them to pray for him.

    The pastor of that church immediately had to defend the act of praying over someone like President Trump.

    Unlike the folks at TPUSA with regard to Ms Love.

    I don’t think she was asking for prayers and I very much doubt she would have welcomed the laying on of hands Donald Trump received — unless she was paid for it up front. 

    • #140
  21. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I don’t think she was asking for prayers and I very much doubt she would have welcomed the laying on of hands Donald Trump received — unless she was paid for it up front. 

    She could also get paid in the back end of the deal.

    • #141
  22. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I don’t think she was asking for prayers and I very much doubt she would have welcomed the laying on of hands Donald Trump received — unless she was paid for it up front.

    She could also get paid in the back end of the deal.

    Oh dear. . . Now I am a little old church lady.

    • #142
  23. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I don’t think she was asking for prayers and I very much doubt she would have welcomed the laying on of hands Donald Trump received — unless she was paid for it up front.

    She could also get paid in the back end of the deal.

    Oh dear. . . Now I am a little old church lady.

    I couldn’t resist. 

    • #143
  24. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I don’t think she was asking for prayers and I very much doubt she would have welcomed the laying on of hands Donald Trump received — unless she was paid for it up front.

    She could also get paid in the back end of the deal.

    Oh dear. . . Now I am a little old church lady.

    I couldn’t resist.

    Well, I guess I started it. Must. learn. to. live. with. consequences.

    • #144
  25. Ben Sears Member
    Ben Sears
    @BenMSYS

    Richard Easton (View Comment):

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    The question arises, is there a viable conservative movement that precludes social conservatism?

    It’s the only viable model, if you want to expand the base and win. A lot of would-be allies are reluctant to join up with the bluenose no-fun brigade, as they see it. Let them into the movement for non-social issues, then understand the positions on their own. The left is constantly pressing the issues of social leftism, mandating endless purity tests and codes of behavior – let the right be a haven from the censors and new puritans, and see how many people give it a new look. It’s really an opportunity. The Left is now what they decried: they’re The Man. Rub it in their faces.

    Good luck winning without the votes and energy of pro life people. Nice acceptance of the left’s accusation that they’re the bluenose no-fun brigade. The moderates controlled the Illinois Republican Party for most of the three decades I lived there. We had big government Jim Thomson, Jim Edgar and lying George Ryan as governors for 28 years in a row. Conservatives were told to vote for moderates whereas moderates felt no compunction to vote for conservatives. Now the IL GOP is a shell. Perhaps it’s as much demographics as anything else but the Chamber of Commerce Republicans are happy with open borders which result in these changing demographics. VDH describes in detail what has happened in California as a consequence of such policies. Good luck as a political consultant if you think you grow by spitting on 30%-40% of your base.

    To be fair he did add “as they see it,” to the blue-nose accusation. I didn’t see it as an acceptance.

    • #145
  26. Ben Sears Member
    Ben Sears
    @BenMSYS

    I read this after  reading your intro this afternoon and as a long time lurker let me say welcome. You made some good points and I look forward to reading more. You can already sense the “but” can’t you? It’s a small one.

    I’m sure you could dig through my writing here and at other sites and catch me having used the slippery slope article because pretty much everyone does but I try to avoid it. Your claim the the natural end of libertarian leanings within the conservative movement leads to anarchy doesn’t hold up – my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

    I see the natural end of the libertarian leanings being a more libertarian government not unhitched from what we think of now as conservatism. Charles Cooke has an interesting take on the concept in his book The Conservitarian Manifesto. It’s a good read. But if we look at various political philosophies and see them as goals in themselves rather than a path to an absolutist ideology the slippery slope argument fails. Anarchy is not libertarianism. If it is legitimate that libertarian urges frighten traditional conservatives on the unproven assumption that such leads to anarchy, couldn’t big government progressives argue that small government conservatism leads to libertarianism leads to anarchy. This gives the totalitarian a-do-what-I say or it eventually leads to anarchy argument. 

    Funnily enough, the US started with a pretty libertarian bent. If it led to anarchy we should have seen it. Instead we get a government that has employees who mandate tags on mattresses and how much water you get in your toilet. 

    The slippery slope argument has it’s uses, but I think it gets deployed too often where it does no good and weakens a case. I think the natural end of advocacy for libertarian ideas is libertarianism. Pair the libertarian ideas with conservative ideas and I think you fall somewhere in-between, not anarchy. I’m making tomato sauce right now. The natural end of turning on the stovetop burners is hot pasta, not burning down the house. Sure, the house could burn, but it’s not enough of a worry not to pursue the delicious and edifying pinnacle of dining which is a well made tomato based concoction. 

    Again, I look forward to reading more and congratulations on the new gig. 

    • #146
  27. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Ben Sears (View Comment):
    The slippery slope argument has it’s uses,

    It’s best when it’s used as an argument rather than as a fallacy. 

    • #147
  28. Ben Sears Member
    Ben Sears
    @BenMSYS

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Ben Sears (View Comment):
    The slippery slope argument has it’s uses,

    It’s best when it’s used as an argument rather than as a fallacy.

    It takes some evidence. “Don’t shoot up. You’ll end up addicted.” That has some evidence to back it up. “Listen to jazz and you’ll end up a junky.” Not so much 

    • #148
  29. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Ben Sears (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Ben Sears (View Comment):
    The slippery slope argument has it’s uses,

    It’s best when it’s used as an argument rather than as a fallacy.

    It takes some evidence. “Don’t shoot up. You’ll end up addicted.” That has some evidence to back it up. “Listen to jazz and you’ll end up a junky.” Not so much

    Probably the most common situations where “slippery slope” is an argument, not a fallacy, are when things don’t have to just “slip” down the “slippery slope,” they’re actually being PUSHED down the slope, especially by the left.

    • #149
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Ben Sears (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Ben Sears (View Comment):
    The slippery slope argument has it’s uses,

    It’s best when it’s used as an argument rather than as a fallacy.

    It takes some evidence. “Don’t shoot up. You’ll end up addicted.” That has some evidence to back it up. “Listen to jazz and you’ll end up a junky.” Not so much

    Probably the most common situations where “slippery slope” is an argument, not a fallacy, are when things don’t have to just “slip” down the “slippery slope,” they’re actually being PUSHED down the slope, especially by the left.

    It’s also good when it provokes people to explain what would stop us from sliding all the way to the logical or complete conclusion.  Sometimes there are scruples to keep people from going all the way to the killing fields, for example, while other people have no such scruples.

    • #150
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