‘Socialism Destroys’: The Tenth Commandment

 

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.” — The Tenth Commandment

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” — John Adams

“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.” — Winston Churchill

“I believe in returning the nation’s wealth to its rightful owners.” — Barack Obama

“When the people find that then can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin

The idea that socialism will destroy a society is not new. God himself warned people about this, in the 10th commandment. Which is probably one reason that socialists often abandon conventional religion, creating a sort of religion of their own, which is based on taking from the unpopular and giving to the popular. Or, put more succinctly, their religion is based on coveting their neighbors’ stuff. As Winston Churchill put it, “…the gospel of envy.”

When President Obama said, “I believe in returning the nation’s wealth to its rightful owners,” that is exactly and precisely what he meant. The rightful owners of wealth are not those who earned that wealth – no, the rightful owners of wealth are those who voted for Barack Obama.

We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. The “rightful owners.” My heavens. That should send chills down your spine.

Taking things from people we don’t like, and giving it to people we do like. Using the power of government to not just rationalize, but enforce widespread theft, extortion, bribery, and blackmail. President Obama, and most modern American Democrats, worship “…the gospel of envy.” And because we’ve trained our children that such behavior is actually virtuous, they worship this gospel openly and proudly. They run for office on the platform of “…the gospel of envy.” And they win.

There are some who wonder how all this will turn out.

Benjamin Franklin knew. Perhaps he’d read the 10th Commandment.

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  1. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    But, the problem isn’t limited to women and it didn’t start with women’s suffrage. I would argue it started with the undermining of the moral authority of the Church by certain Protestant “reformers.”

    My turn to duck and cover.

    The Catholic Church (with the notable exception of John Paul II) has never been a big fan of liberty. I doubt Democracy could develop with Catholicism.

    It depends on your definition of liberty. You’re right that the Catholic Church isn’t libertarian (or democratic in its internal structure), which is essentially an ideology of moral license (great piece at AG today:

    https://amgreatness.com/2021/07/19/the-conservative-case-for-hardcore-porn/).

    But, freedom rightly ordered to human flourishing? The Church is all about that!

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless. 

    • #61
  2. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless. 

    The Church is a human institution like anything else and it’s so clearly fallible that it was right to turn against it.  Luther was fallible too of course but even Lutherans know that. 

    Historically, wasn’t the church more interested in propping up Kings than expanding democracy and religious freedom? 

    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d. Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.  

    • #62
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless.

    The Church is a human institution like anything else and it’s so clearly fallible that it was right to turn against it. Luther was fallible too of course but even Lutherans know that.

    Historically, wasn’t the church more interested in propping up Kings than expanding democracy and religious freedom?

    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d. Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.

    As well as not omniscient, since it would seem that an omniscient God would know that Eve would eat the apple, etc.

    • #63
  4. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless.

    The Church is a human institution like anything else and it’s so clearly fallible that it was right to turn against it. Luther was fallible too of course but even Lutherans know that.

    Historically, wasn’t the church more interested in propping up Kings than expanding democracy and religious freedom?

    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d. Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.

    Oh, dear. Terrible theology. It’s not “knowledge” we’re actually arguing over. It’s authority. Who has it, and who doesn’t. Once individuals think they have the authority to design their own moral code, you get all kinds of crazy innovations, as we’re seeing now.

    • #64
  5. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless.

    The Church is a human institution like anything else and it’s so clearly fallible that it was right to turn against it. Luther was fallible too of course but even Lutherans know that.

    Historically, wasn’t the church more interested in propping up Kings than expanding democracy and religious freedom?

    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d. Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.

    Oh, dear. Terrible theology. It’s not “knowledge” we’re actually arguing over. It’s authority. Who has it, and who doesn’t. Once individuals think they have the authority to design their own moral code, you get all kinds of crazy innovations, as we’re seeing now.

    Agreed. But why is the chuch a superior source of true knowledge?

    • #65
  6. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d.  Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.  

    That wasn’t the plan.

    The plan was for us to get the knowledge in the right way at the right time.

    (The podcast The Lord of Spirits is good on this, as on demons and much else.)

    • #66
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As well as not omniscient, since it would seem that an omniscient God would know that Eve would eat the apple, etc.

    Of course G-d knew.

    • #67
  8. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As well as not omniscient, since it would seem that an omniscient God would know that Eve would eat the apple, etc.

    Of course G-d knew.

    Yeah I buy that. Why does he act aurprised?

    • #68
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As well as not omniscient, since it would seem that an omniscient God would know that Eve would eat the apple, etc.

    Of course G-d knew.

    Yeah I buy that. Why does he act aurprised?

    Does He?  First I’ve heard of it.

    • #69
  10. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):
    We have millions of women who are not married or attached to a slacker. The obvious choice for these women is to look to gov for their ultimate security.

    ???? What?

    There’s a mindset among many women that good government is possible if we just elect the right people. In other words, Democrats. Remember the Life of Julia from the Obama era? It was government dependence from cradle to grave. We used to call some of these women “welfare queens,” before we were cowed by political correctness. But, other women just want concentrated power in government to secure their “right” to abortion, or to give them free college tuition, or free daycare for their kids. They think Big Government can solve the climate change “crisis.” They really believe government is a force for good, rather than just force.

    Conservative women I’ve known who are either unmarried or married to a slouch tend to lean on Jesus as their provider/protector. Progressive women look to Big Government. Progressivism is a state religion, especially for women.

    And, as I mentioned before, Big Government won’t leave/abandon/divorce them, no matter what they do.

    Jules

    I agree with the comments above. However, I was coming from a slightly different angle.

    Beyound the need to be loved , it is my understanding that the next greatest need in a woman is security. Faithless (no God their loving father) single woman will tend to look to gov for that security.

    The right says personal responsibility

    The Prog says free child care and we will take care of you.

    It is understandable what their choice will be.

    Now of course this is not all women in this category. However, Dems always seem to take the women vote for a reason.

    There are many reasons for the demise of our republic. One big one is woman’s suffrage.

    Grabbing shield for incoming now. 😉

    bhahaha. I dodged the women’s suffrage curse, but G-d is my provider, and has given me the upbringing, mindset, and skills to manage without a spouse, since that is how it turned out.

    I am certainly not counting on the freaking government. blech. The government is the worst slacker spouse a woman (or any human) could ever have.

     

    • #70
  11. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):
    We have millions of women who are not married or attached to a slacker. The obvious choice for these women is to look to gov for their ultimate security.

    ???? What?

    There’s a mindset among many women that good government is possible if we just elect the right people. In other words, Democrats. Remember the Life of Julia from the Obama era? It was government dependence from cradle to grave. We used to call some of these women “welfare queens,” before we were cowed by political correctness. But, other women just want concentrated power in government to secure their “right” to abortion, or to give them free college tuition, or free daycare for their kids. They think Big Government can solve the climate change “crisis.” They really believe government is a force for good, rather than just force.

    Conservative women I’ve known who are either unmarried or married to a slouch tend to lean on Jesus as their provider/protector. Progressive women look to Big Government. Progressivism is a state religion, especially for women.

    And, as I mentioned before, Big Government won’t leave/abandon/divorce them, no matter what they do.

    Jules

    I agree with the comments above. However, I was coming from a slightly different angle.

    Beyound the need to be loved , it is my understanding that the next greatest need in a woman is security. Faithless (no God their loving father) single woman will tend to look to gov for that security.

    The right says personal responsibility

    The Prog says free child care and we will take care of you.

    It is understandable what their choice will be.

    Now of course this is not all women in this category. However, Dems always seem to take the women vote for a reason.

    There are many reasons for the demise of our republic. One big one is woman’s suffrage.

    Grabbing shield for incoming now. 😉

    I’m a woman and I agree. It’s biblical. It’s a right-understanding of human anthropology. Men get their sense of self from their work (by the sweat of your brow) and women by their relationship to others (despite the pains of childbirth you will desire your husband). There’s a built-in vulnerability for women as the child-bearers of the species. It naturally makes us desire security.

    In this way, progressive women are shallow and are foolish about what a strong woman is. So, yes, the republic was doomed once (progressive-minded) women got the vote. But, the problem isn’t limited to women and it didn’t start with women’s suffrage. I would argue it started with the undermining of the moral authority of the Church by certain Protestant “reformers.”

    My turn to duck and cover.

    Well, I’m pretty sure our social and political woes are straight from the amalgamation of billions upon billions (ala Carl Sagan) of individual and regrettable choices and expectations over the millenia.

    We are fallen, and clearly can’t get up. 

    I’m pretty sure, you want me to vote though, since my head is screwed on straight. it is my loss that I am not married, but certainly not society’s loss. 

    • #71
  12. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

    Well, you see, there you go, our problems started way before Martin Luther, and had been going strong for millenia before he broke off. And there is nothing new under the sun, not even Women’s suffrage. 

    They were told not to eat from the tree, but the second the fruit was eaten, Adam and Eve gained the RESPONSIBILITY for the choice, based on our flawed discernment. Cain and Abel made their offerings to G-d. Abel’s was accepted. Cain’s was not. Cain murders Abel…and so on, humanity has shown that it is quite easy to get it wrong. 

    of course, then came the laws, you know, to help us work it out. which of course we could not fulfill, even with our best effort. 

    G-d forgives if we ask, but we must ask. Which means we have to acknowledge and take responsibility for our errors in choosing good from evil and denying the Authority of Almighty G-d. 

    We are saved by Grace, through Faith in Christ Jesus. Thank the LORD. His Mercy never ends. 

    Just ask. 

    • #72
  13. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    kedavis (View Comment):
    Eve would eat the apple

    Eve had the option to not eat the apple. 

    That is Liberty. with consequences. 

    We have no idea the plan G-d that would have unfolded had Adam and Eve obeyed the clear instruction. We are on a detour plan, in which we continually work out the obligation to know Good from Evil. 

    But one day, by Grace, we will be returned to walk with G-d in his Garden, if we accept the Authority of Almighty G-d. 

    Just ask Him.

    • #73
  14. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Isn’t it interesting that The Fall was due to a violation of God’s command to refrain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? What’s so bad about the knowledge of good and evil??? The tree is a stand-in for God’s moral authority. If you eat of it, you become “as god” (in your own mind) and you claim the moral authority for yourself. That almost perfectly describes modern man — especially progressives. They know all that is good and holy and if you disagree with them, you’re evil!

    I argue this is an outgrowth of private interpretation (and resultant denominationalism) promoted by Luther. Satan loves it when we refuse to submit to a divinely delegated moral authority (like the Church). We’re scattered in every direction by our own devised moral code. Killing babies is okay so long as they’re unwanted and haven’t taken their first breath. Pornography is good because I have unmet desires and relationships with real people require too much of me. Your skin color defines something essential about you as a person. The list of moral innovations and distortions is endless.

    The Church is a human institution like anything else and it’s so clearly fallible that it was right to turn against it. Luther was fallible too of course but even Lutherans know that.

    Perhaps our biggest disagreement is that I would side with Lucifer rather than G-d. Man ought to possess the knowledge of good and evil and if G-d really planned to keep as his personal unthinking pets in his garden, he’s a tyrant unworthy of devotion.

    Oh, dear. Terrible theology. It’s not “knowledge” we’re actually arguing over. It’s authority. Who has it, and who doesn’t. Once individuals think they have the authority to design their own moral code, you get all kinds of crazy innovations, as we’re seeing now.

    Agreed. But why is [it] superior source of true knowledge?

    Because Jesus delegated his authority to bind and loose to Peter and his successors and promised to not abandon His church ever. It’s not that the Church has perfect knowledge on the order of God’s omniscience. It’s that She’s been given the authority to settle disputes based on what God has revealed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. We call it the Magisterium and even the worst popes (it’s a family and families sometimes have bad fathers) haven’t been able to corrupt the teachings. We Catholics believe it’s not possible — that God might literally send a bolt of lightning to take out a pope who tried. And the pope is subject to correction from his fellow bishops the way Peter was confronted by Paul. But, the pope has the final say, which is really the only way unity is preserved.

    • #74
  15. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    So you guys are all creationists as I understand it and we are all creatures of incest?

    • #75
  16. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    As well as not omniscient, since it would seem that an omniscient God would know that Eve would eat the apple, etc.

    Of course G-d knew.

    Yeah I buy that. Why does he act aurprised?

    Does He? First I’ve heard of it.

    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

    9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

    13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

    Why does an omniscient entity ask questions. 

    • #76
  17. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Why does an omniscient entity ask questions. 

    Answer A: Same reason I ask the kids questions, I reckon.

    Answer B: You ever heard of Socrates?  You think he never once knew the answers to the questions he was asking?  Why do you think I’m asking questions now?

    • #77
  18. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    So you guys are all creationists as I understand it and we are all creatures of incest?

    Henry, you need to take a step back and look at the story

    Incest is wrong fundamentally because you are deliberately increasing the likelihood of harmful autosomal recessive mutations being expressed.  According to the Biblical story, the first humans were proclaimed good.  They did not possess harmful mutations, so mating would not produce birth defects.  The Bible clearly portrays the antediluvian humans as beyond us, as they are described living for hundreds of years.  (This is why I support gene engineering for longevity – I am all about Methuselah lifespans!)

    The general concept is of the introduced flaw propagating through humans over time.  I personally take the view that Genesis is the accurate transcription of divine visions given to Moses, like someone taking detailed notes while watching a movie.  There’s a lot the camera does not show, and perception of time can be way off.  The major themes are well-covered.

    Also, the Garden of Eden story is not about God being upset we did not turn out to be worship-bots (or sex bots for that matter)   It’s a lot easier to develop non-sapient intelligences versus sapient intelligences.  Humans were made after God’s image – creative, reasoning, and with the responsibility of choice.   The only real love is through free choice.  God desires people who love and trust Him because they want to do so.  Read the story again – God grants Adam dominion over the garden, and assigns him the task of naming all of the life there.  I would consider coming up with nomenclature for life is knowledge.  The problem came with not trusting God.  The Tree represents breaking that trust, and the understanding of why you should have trusted Him.

    Of course God knew all this would happen.  He knew the only way to fix this would involve becoming mortal and being tortured to death before creating the universe.   There was no other way around it.  God just happens to desire people to genuinely love Him enough to create the universe and history to just to achieve it.

    • #78
  19. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):

    (This is why I support gene engineering for longevity – I am all about Methuselah lifespans!)

    I think we should genetically engineer people to be better before we prolong their lives. 

    The problem came with not trusting God.  The Tree represents breaking that trust, and the understanding of why you should have trusted Him.

    But we are only fully human, fully what we should be when we reason. To quote Lucifer in Paradise Lost, “How can it be a sin to know?” It was a good thing for humans to become sapient. It was worth it if we had to leave the garden. 

    But like a Jedi would say to Darth Vader, “I find your faith disturbing.”

    You really believe absent of any empirical evidence that humanity came from two people despite the fossil record of Africa? We are taking the story literally here though it violates everything we know about the universe? 

    • #79
  20. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    So you guys are all creationists as I understand it and we are all creatures of incest?

    You think the Christians you’re interacting with are simple-minded and anti-intellectual? Here’s my recommendation: let the Church speak for Herself. Do the reading and ask the trained apologists. 

    • #80
  21. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Now WC, don’t be so hard on him. If it weren’t for his straw men, Henry wouldn’t have anyone to play with at all.

    • #81
  22. Graham Witt Coolidge
    Graham Witt
    @hoowitts

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    So you guys are all creationists as I understand it and we are all creatures of incest?

    It seems this thread has gone of topic, but I’m new to Ricochet (been reading for some time though) and mostly found @henrycastaigne. Please leave the ‘snark’ at the door. The story of the first couple is representative of human consciousness and thus man’s beginning on earth. Without this development of consciousness, ‘couple’ or scripture or knowledge doesn’t exist. This discussion doesn’t even exist as language (not communication) is unique to humankind. The story of the first couple is representative of all first couples. 

    Whether you are an evolutionary biologist or a creationist, the quantum leap of consciousness in homo sapiens vs. other life is undeniable. Even overlooking that no extensive fossil record exists to confirm simian to man development, every attempt at ‘missing-link’ fossil discoveries has been exposed as a hoax. Where then does this consciousness begin? It seems creationists consider this God-given; evolutionists seem to elevate some never-before-seen mutation ‘just happened’. The latter seems just as much a statement of faith as the former.

    • #82
  23. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Percival (View Comment):

    Now WC, don’t be so hard on him. If it weren’t for his straw men, Henry wouldn’t have anyone to play with at all.

    Indeed. I am defined by loneliness. However, are you all seriously creationists here?

    • #83
  24. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Graham Witt (View Comment):
    Whether you are an evolutionary biologist or a creationist, the quantum leap of consciousness in homo sapiens vs. other life is undeniable. Even overlooking that no extensive fossil record exists to confirm simian to man development, every attempt at ‘missing-link’ fossil discoveries has been exposed as a hoax. Where then does this consciousness begin? It seems creationists consider this God-given; evolutionists seem to elevate some never-before-seen mutation ‘just happened’. The latter seems just as much a statement of faith as the former.

    That is completely wrong. The fossil record is pretty good.

    All snark aside I genuinely find your beliefs disturbing which is why I have to ask if you sincerely hold them.

     

    • #84
  25. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Now WC, don’t be so hard on him. If it weren’t for his straw men, Henry wouldn’t have anyone to play with at all.

    Indeed. I am defined by loneliness. However, are you all seriously creationists here?

    It’s not really a fair question, since the term can mean a lot of different things. Here’s a tract on the Catholic position:

    https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

     

    • #85
  26. Graham Witt Coolidge
    Graham Witt
    @hoowitts

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Graham Witt (View Comment):
    Whether you are an evolutionary biologist or a creationist, the quantum leap of consciousness in homo sapiens vs. other life is undeniable. Even overlooking that no extensive fossil record exists to confirm simian to man development, every attempt at ‘missing-link’ fossil discoveries has been exposed as a hoax. Where then does this consciousness begin? It seems creationists consider this God-given; evolutionists seem to elevate some never-before-seen mutation ‘just happened’. The latter seems just as much a statement of faith as the former.

    That is completely wrong. The fossil record is pretty good.

    All snark aside I genuinely find your beliefs disturbing which is why I have to ask if you sincerely hold them.

    Cute vid – hadn’t seen that one yet. From many previous readings (not exhaustive) I have found your challenges sincere – hence my comment on snark. I meant to include: you are better than that comment.

    A faith that cannot stand up to challenges is no faith at all, so those made sincerely should be appreciated. It would seem a different thread would be appropriate but would enjoy delving into further discussion on where you might define macroevolution and microevolution and their conflict with scripture.

    • #86
  27. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Now WC, don’t be so hard on him. If it weren’t for his straw men, Henry wouldn’t have anyone to play with at all.

    Indeed. I am defined by loneliness. However, are you all seriously creationists here?

    It’s not really a fair question, since the term can mean a lot of different things. Here’s a tract on the Catholic position:

    https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

    Also, it assumes a conflict between faith and science, which is simply, wildly false about Catholic Christianity. The Church affirms the truth, wherever it’s found, and then asserts higher (revealed) truths that science is ill-equipped to answer or even investigate. Contrary to Madonna (the singer, not the Mother of God), this is not simply a material world.

    Read the tract.

    • #87
  28. Kevin Schulte Member
    Kevin Schulte
    @KevinSchulte

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Now WC, don’t be so hard on him. If it weren’t for his straw men, Henry wouldn’t have anyone to play with at all.

    Indeed. I am defined by loneliness. However, are you all seriously creationists here?

    As for me Henry. The Bible is Gods word to man. It is a history book where the text indicates an historic account. And it is an instruction book on how man is to relate to man and man to God. 

    Hebrews 4:12

    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    And so much more . To those who believe .

    So yes, I am a creationist  

     

     

    • #88
  29. Graham Witt Coolidge
    Graham Witt
    @hoowitts

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Also, it assumes a conflict between faith and science, which is simply, wildly false

    Outside of Christianity, what motivations existed to investigate the ‘universe’? Stalled in other cultures, science bloomed in Christendom precisely because of the understanding that God created a discernibly marvelous universe and gave human beings predominance over all living things.  He also gave us the ability to scratch the surface of its intricate design, including its physical and natural laws.

    • #89
  30. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Graham Witt (View Comment):
    Graham Witt @hoowitts 4 Hours Ago

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    Also, it assumes a conflict between faith and science, which is simply, wildly false

    Outside of Christianity, what motivations existed to investigate the ‘universe’?

    Human curiosity. Many atheists still love learning about science. 

    • #90
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