A Foreseen Foreseeable

 

It looks as if I was wrong about something: I thought charging electric cars at night would be great because it smooths out the daily power cycle for the utility companies, but it turns out that not only is the California power grid unable to handle the load, but there’s a partially hidden truth.

Here is the partially hidden truth [emphasis mine]:

“The ISO also said residents should avoid ‘use of large appliances and turning off extra lights,’ and wrote that ‘[T]his usually happens in the evening hours when solar generation is going offline and consumers are returning home and switching on air conditioners, lights, and appliances.’ “

Put another way, not only is their grid ill-prepared to handle the increasing demand (to be worsened if they go to all-electric cars), but they have an insufficient base load as well.  California Green Energy: coming soon to a grid near you . . .

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  1. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built- the China syndrome & snail darters you know! For surge capacity the best solution is gas fired turbines- but the Greens hate fracking & pipelines. So we are left with unstable power generation by wind & solar- thereby ensuring situations like Texas last winter & California this summer. Ask any engineer in the power generation industry….

    I am hoping that the people of Texas are smart enough to start building more capacity, and from a reliable source rather than more windmills. There’s no point hoping that Californians will figure it out.

    There would have been a lot less trouble, perhaps overall none at all, if the power plants and natural gas facilities had been properly insulated etc to withstand the cold.  Many of the power plants could have been operating, if they had been.

    • #31
  2. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    David Foster (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built

    And as far as hydro goes, this is one way in which the current Left differs from the older Left. Both the American New Dealers and the Soviet Communists were very proud of their hydro projects.

    And if you think about it, hydro is really a form of solar, with the benefit of integral storage capacity.

    So is wind power, but without the storage capacity.

    • #32
  3. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built- the China syndrome & snail darters you know! For surge capacity the best solution is gas fired turbines- but the Greens hate fracking & pipelines. So we are left with unstable power generation by wind & solar- thereby ensuring situations like Texas last winter & California this summer. Ask any engineer in the power generation industry….

    I am hoping that the people of Texas are smart enough to start building more capacity, and from a reliable source rather than more windmills. There’s no point hoping that Californians will figure it out.

    There really isn’t any hope.

    Claire Berlinski once commented that she did not understand California’s chronic water shortages. Israel, she said, uses desalination for its water needs and has been for quite a while.

    Claire seems to get stupider by the year.  As regards the People’s Republic of California, last I heard they haven’t built a new water storage facility since the 1970s, during which time the population has multiplied.

    • #33
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    [I don’t have real knowledge, just anecdotal information from when I made frequent visits to a company facility in Silicon Valley a few years ago.] Supposedly, so many people had installed solar panels that were connected to “sell” electricity into the grid that some afternoons there was actually excess power coming into the grid. The local utility was encouraging people to charge their electric cars during the day to use this excess power from solar panels.

    There I was trying to be facetious with something that might have actual value in some locales.

    Yeah, I was told that solar panels the size of a carport roof was about the right size to charge a car parked under the carport during the day, at least in a sunny place like Silicon Valley.

    But during the day, aren’t those cars at wherever those people work?

    • #34
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Time again:

    (in case you don’t recognize it, that’s Obama with the ears.)

     

     

    • #35
  6. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    [I don’t have real knowledge, just anecdotal information from when I made frequent visits to a company facility in Silicon Valley a few years ago.] Supposedly, so many people had installed solar panels that were connected to “sell” electricity into the grid that some afternoons there was actually excess power coming into the grid. The local utility was encouraging people to charge their electric cars during the day to use this excess power from solar panels.

    There I was trying to be facetious with something that might have actual value in some locales.

    Yeah, I was told that solar panels the size of a carport roof was about the right size to charge a car parked under the carport during the day, at least in a sunny place like Silicon Valley.

    But during the day, aren’t those cars at wherever those people work?

    They work at home now. And if they don’t they need two electric cars.

    • #36
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    [I don’t have real knowledge, just anecdotal information from when I made frequent visits to a company facility in Silicon Valley a few years ago.] Supposedly, so many people had installed solar panels that were connected to “sell” electricity into the grid that some afternoons there was actually excess power coming into the grid. The local utility was encouraging people to charge their electric cars during the day to use this excess power from solar panels.

    There I was trying to be facetious with something that might have actual value in some locales.

    Yeah, I was told that solar panels the size of a carport roof was about the right size to charge a car parked under the carport during the day, at least in a sunny place like Silicon Valley.

    But during the day, aren’t those cars at wherever those people work?

    They work at home now. And if they don’t they need two electric cars.

    Why, with TWO electric cars, that would certainly DOUBLE their efficiency and green-ness!

    • #37
  8. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built- the China syndrome & snail darters you know! For surge capacity the best solution is gas fired turbines- but the Greens hate fracking & pipelines. So we are left with unstable power generation by wind & solar- thereby ensuring situations like Texas last winter & California this summer. Ask any engineer in the power generation industry….

    I am hoping that the people of Texas are smart enough to start building more capacity, and from a reliable source rather than more windmills. There’s no point hoping that Californians will figure it out.

    There really isn’t any hope.

    Claire Berlinski once commented that she did not understand California’s chronic water shortages. Israel, she said, uses desalination for its water needs and has been for quite a while.

    Yes. For years, Saudi Arabia has piped its desalinated water 270 miles from the coast to Riyadh, in the interior.

    • #38
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built- the China syndrome & snail darters you know! For surge capacity the best solution is gas fired turbines- but the Greens hate fracking & pipelines. So we are left with unstable power generation by wind & solar- thereby ensuring situations like Texas last winter & California this summer. Ask any engineer in the power generation industry….

    I am hoping that the people of Texas are smart enough to start building more capacity, and from a reliable source rather than more windmills. There’s no point hoping that Californians will figure it out.

    There really isn’t any hope.

    Claire Berlinski once commented that she did not understand California’s chronic water shortages. Israel, she said, uses desalination for its water needs and has been for quite a while.

    Yes. For years, Saudi Arabia has piped its desalinated water 270 miles from the coast to Riyadh, in the interior.

    California won’t save their own water (rain, etc) and they won’t build their own power plants for desalination either.

    • #39
  10. James Lileks Contributor
    James Lileks
    @jameslileks

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    It reminds me of a Connections episode

    Imma stop you right there, as they say on the internet, and just wave to a fellow citizen who enjoyed the work of James Burke.  He wrote some of the most intellectually invigorating TV shows ever made, and was my absolute hero and model of a modern intellectual when I was in the 20s. I was lucky enough to interview him in the early 90s, and I remember we spent a lot of time talking about our Macs, because we had the same model – Quadra 660AV – and were bedeviled by the machine’s unusually aggressive disk-access sound. He was smart and genial and utterly decent, a firehose of chat, and perhaps the most influential thinkers on my own way of apprehending the world: find the connections. Draw this to that. Inhabit the times, see what they saw. Never underestimate the creative power unleashed by the desire for profit; never demean the accomplishments that arose from pursuit of profit. Celebrate the forgotten who pushed something forward. Be humble.  Be wary. Never stop inventing.

    • #40
  11. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    It reminds me of a Connections episode

    Imma stop you right there, as they say on the internet, and just wave to a fellow citizen who enjoyed the work of James Burke. He wrote some of the most intellectually invigorating TV shows ever made, and was my absolute hero and model of a modern intellectual when I was in the 20s. I was lucky enough to interview him in the early 90s, and I remember we spent a lot of time talking about our Macs, because we had the same model – Quadra 660AV – and were bedeviled by the machine’s unusually aggressive disk-access sound. He was smart and genial and utterly decent, a firehose of chat, and perhaps the most influential thinkers on my own way of apprehending the world: find the connections. Draw this to that. Inhabit the times, see what they saw. Never underestimate the creative power unleashed by the desire for profit; never demean the accomplishments that arose from pursuit of profit. Celebrate the forgotten who pushed something forward. Be humble. Be wary. Never stop inventing.

    And try not to do things like “Issue an executive order to restrain Big Business”.

    • #41
  12. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    James Lileks (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    It reminds me of a Connections episode

    Imma stop you right there, as they say on the internet, and just wave to a fellow citizen who enjoyed the work of James Burke. He wrote some of the most intellectually invigorating TV shows ever made, and was my absolute hero and model of a modern intellectual when I was in the 20s. I was lucky enough to interview him in the early 90s, and I remember we spent a lot of time talking about our Macs, because we had the same model – Quadra 660AV – and were bedeviled by the machine’s unusually aggressive disk-access sound. He was smart and genial and utterly decent, a firehose of chat, and perhaps the most influential thinkers on my own way of apprehending the world: find the connections. Draw this to that. Inhabit the times, see what they saw. Never underestimate the creative power unleashed by the desire for profit; never demean the accomplishments that arose from pursuit of profit. Celebrate the forgotten who pushed something forward. Be humble. Be wary. Never stop inventing.

    I found his shows to be one of the most eye opening series ever.

    I am filled with envy you got to talk to the man! 

    • #42
  13. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Raxxalan (View Comment):

    Unfortunately already here in Texas, as we found out this winter and last week. I suspect that much of the country has insufficient base load power to handle the push towards EVs.

    I thought the problem was the entire power infrastructure was not designed for such temperatures and snow . . .

    • #43
  14. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    The Scarecrow (View Comment):
    Yup. No matter how many times I bring up the “where is the electrical power going to come from?” question in discussions about the glory and wonder of electric cars, I never get an answer, and the question is quickly buried under all the cool bells and whistles of a Tesla.

    It’s like money.  The left thinks it simply appears out of nowehere, or that the government can print as much as it wants with no repercussions . . .

    • #44
  15. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built- the China syndrome & snail darters you know! For surge capacity the best solution is gas fired turbines- but the Greens hate fracking & pipelines. So we are left with unstable power generation by wind & solar- thereby ensuring situations like Texas last winter & California this summer. Ask any engineer in the power generation industry….

    Even hydroelectric has its problems when there are droughts.  Still, it’s better than solar and wind, but the left wants to undam every river and stream . . .

    • #45
  16. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    If I owned a Tesla (which I wouldn’t mind), Google Maps shows Tesla charging stations.  They aren’t exactly popping up like daisys, but I am seeing more and more of them . . .

    • #46
  17. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    Teslas should have a solar roof.  In my sci-fi novels, cars have a bodies made of Solskin, a solar panel material as strong as steel, but with solar ray capture technology woven in . . .

    • #47
  18. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    David Foster (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built

    And as far as hydro goes, this is one way in which the current Left differs from the older Left. Both the American New Dealers and the Soviet Communists were very proud of their hydro projects.

    And if you think about it, hydro is really a form of solar, with the benefit of integral storage capacity.

    Fossil Fuel energy is also traceable to Solar energy, follow the chain: coal, oil, gas: dinosaurs, plants, sunlight. So, it’s all Solar energy, what’s the fuss about? It’s just about the method of storage. Oh, and density. And reliability. And affordability.

    • #48
  19. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    David Foster (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):
    Baseline energy needs are best met thru nuclear & hydroelectric but the Greens refuse to allow them to be built

    And as far as hydro goes, this is one way in which the current Left differs from the older Left. Both the American New Dealers and the Soviet Communists were very proud of their hydro projects.

    And if you think about it, hydro is really a form of solar, with the benefit of integral storage capacity.

    Fossil Fuel energy is also traceable to Solar energy, follow the chain: coal, oil, gas: dinosaurs, plants, sunlight. So, it’s all Solar energy, what’s the fuss about? It’s just about the method of storage. Oh, and density. And reliability. And affordability.

    And, perhaps most important, scalability. 

    • #49
  20. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Stad (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    Teslas should have a solar roof. In my sci-fi novels, cars have a bodies made of Solskin, a solar panel material as strong as steel, but with solar ray capture technology woven in . . .

    There’s a car like that in Robert A. Heinlein’s classic story, “Coventry” (1940).

    I didn’t look up the numbers, but I suspect the drawback is that you’d have to leave the Tesla parked in the sun for about a week, to drive it for an hour.

    • #50
  21. Taras Coolidge
    Taras
    @Taras

    Stad (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    If I owned a Tesla (which I wouldn’t mind), Google Maps shows Tesla charging stations. They aren’t exactly popping up like daisys, but I am seeing more and more of them . . .

    “Elon Musk Says EVs Will Double World’s Need for Electricity” December 1, 2020 https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/12/elon-musk-says-evs-will-double-worlds-need-for-electricity/

    • #51
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Taras (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    If I owned a Tesla (which I wouldn’t mind), Google Maps shows Tesla charging stations. They aren’t exactly popping up like daisys, but I am seeing more and more of them . . .

    “Elon Musk Says EVs Will Double World’s Need for Electricity” December 1, 2020 https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/12/elon-musk-says-evs-will-double-worlds-need-for-electricity/

    California denies that reality.

    • #52
  23. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Taras (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    Shouldn’t there be a requirement to do the charging with solar power?

    Teslas should have a solar roof. In my sci-fi novels, cars have a bodies made of Solskin, a solar panel material as strong as steel, but with solar ray capture technology woven in . . .

    There’s a car like that in Robert A. Heinlein’s classic story, “Coventry” (1940).

    I didn’t look up the numbers, but I suspect the drawback is that you’d have to leave the Tesla parked in the sun for about a week, to drive it for an hour.

    Thank goodness science fiction technology can recharge cars in a minute or two!

    • #53
  24. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Taras (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    colleenb (View Comment):

    Living in northern Virginia, I am surrounded by Teslas. I think we may have the most Teslas in the country but I haven’t been to California so can’t say for sure. I would love to know how Dominion Energy and the other energy companies supplying VA are doing in meeting this demand. There’s even a Tesla around here with ‘RayPower’ for its license plate. I don’t think so but try telling that to a greenie.

    I’ve learned well the entire Tesla model line up through my No. VA lens–there’s a sleek one, a little one, and a fat one. They also have what looks like a vertical laptop on the dash. I wonder if there’s a mouse.

    Do you have WaWa’s? Ours was reasonably incapacitated for awhile while 6-8 Tesla charging stations were being installed. I assume that these are available 24/7, like the gas, but have no idea how that factors into the power grid or what the cost is associated with using them.

    If I owned a Tesla (which I wouldn’t mind), Google Maps shows Tesla charging stations. They aren’t exactly popping up like daisys, but I am seeing more and more of them . . .

    “Elon Musk Says EVs Will Double World’s Need for Electricity” December 1, 2020 https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/12/elon-musk-says-evs-will-double-worlds-need-for-electricity/

    California denies that reality.

    Leftists always say something like, “We’ll make our electric devices more efficient so we don’t need any new power generation.”  In the nuke business, we call touting efficiency as a new power source “negawatts”.  The truth is, you can only increase efficiency of any device – electrical or mechanical – up to a point short of its theoretical limit because of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

    And what are those laws in plain English?

    1. You can’t get something for nothing.
    2. You can’t even break even.
    • #54
  25. CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Not So Easy To Kill
    @CarolJoy

    Did the ISO really say to avoid turning on the large appliances in the evening?

    I should not be shocked but I am.

    For years, circa 2009 to 2015, we were told to Delay turning on our large appliances until the evening. That way the tremendous load of energy needed to power all the air conditioning would not have washing machines and dryers running as an additional burden.

    Our county was visited by PG & E representatives one summer. The message was: use as little energy as possible, and also do as much as you can in the evening or night.

    Our supervisors roundly opposed them. One supe mentioned that his son had a business that used compression machinery. Should he shut down during the day and use the machinery at night? But if he did, would his customers like the new hours of 7PM to 5AM?

    Other supes mentioned that the biggest use of electricity was for fans and AC – and since it cools off significantly at night, then what we basically were being asked to do was to fry in the 98% plus temps during the day, and use the electricity for AC only at night when not needed.

    Our county failed to join the less well represented counties who fell for the “Save The Planet/Save the Power Gridlock” scheme. (Plus its common knowledge that PG & E gets us to conserve so they can sell the electricity to other states.)

    • #55
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