A Meander: Prediction vs Prescription, Science, Engineering and the Meaning of Life

 

Purists love to talk about what is and is not a science. Clearly, for example, physics is a science, because it allows us to offer theories, and test them against data. And we learn from the results.

By way of contrast, economics or sociology or psychology are not sciences. Of course not! Those soft squishy subjects have no real predictive power after all, right?

Not so fast. Sure, physics will tell you, with impressive accuracy, what happens when a billiard ball hits another one. But if you replace the target billiard ball with a kitten, physics is not so helpful. And if we replace the kitten with a person, then physics has nothing at all useful to tell us.

On the other hand, some of those squishier subjects, albeit with large error bars, do have some predictive powers when it comes to people. When we scare people in a pandemic, we know some of the likely outcomes. We know how people tend to react to scarcity and plenty, how they change as a result of marriage or divorce. We don’t learn these things from physics, but we can learn them from the study of mankind through these softer “sciences.”

And aren’t people ultimately more interesting than billiard balls? After all, the physical world is at least partially deterministic. The more predictable the natural world is, the more boring it is. Billiard balls, writ large or small, are still inanimate forces acting on each other.

Of course, the physical world is not really deterministic, not all the way down or all the way up. And as we leave the realm of simple mechanics, we see that the parts wherein the “hard” sciences end up unable to give definitive answers at all, resembling distributive answers that look more like statistical spreads in sociology than Newtonian certainty. In other words, science stops telling us what will happen, and instead tells us what is more or less likely to happen!

Indeed, if you come right down to it, if “All Models are Wrong, but Some Models are Useful,” then there is another variation from the math-grounded physics down through chemistry to sociology: the error bars get larger. All answers to all predictive questions in every field end up offering a statistical range of answers. The difference between physics and sociology is found not in whether the operative models are predictive, but in how large the error bars are.

“Ah!” you might say. “But at least Science is falsifiable! That is what makes the difference!”

This sounds nice. But how falsifiable is physics, really? If 97 or 99% of the mass in your galactic model is not actually directly detectable at all but is instead measurable only by its assumed effects on other objects (see Matter: Dark), then where is the falsification?

Or take Climate Change. All the models have been wrong. None have been useful. Does that stop the Science Train from continuing to double-down on nonsense? Not so far.

There is no objective scientific discipline, free from human interference and biases. We might argue that this is because people are the practitioners of science. But we cannot be sure. After all, anything can be described in more than one way, so why should there be an “objective” way to describe a leaf? In a language not bounded by human models of physics and chemistry and biology and dendrology and even poetry, is there such a thing as a “leaf”? And if there is, does it even matter?

I would like to offer that the ideal scientific metric of “predictive authority” is itself a false goal since it can never be absolutely, 100%, no-wiggle-room-whatsoever- TRUE. We instead should be very happy with an engineering standard: Either it works, or it does not.

And one of the really cool things about engineering is that there is a natural constraint on wasted time: engineers have to, sooner or later, make something that someone else will pay for. That is the true measure of a “useful model.”

Creating new things is not scientific. Engineers care about what works, not what is True. Nor do engineers, unlike, say, mathematicians, often make things that are perfect, that can never be improved-upon. Instead, I offer that engineers are doing something much more open-ended and interesting: engineers always have to keep working and growing and improving. There is no “best for evermore” mousetrap or software program or packaging plant.

In engineering, there is a falsifiable check at all times: are people paying for your product? As any study of the history of technology shows, it is not simple to predict what will work – at least not in advance. This trend holds in absolutely every field, from the internal combustion motor to cooling technologies to software languages. Dozens of people built flying machines before the Wright Brothers, and even after Orville and Wilbur broke the barrier, the next iteration in aerospace engineering did not retain the Wright approach to controlling flight.

Engineering consists of betting on the future, using all the tools we have to hand. Those tools include the tools of the harder sciences, but they also require substantial teams comprised of a vast range of human talent. A new drug requires not just biologists, but lab techs and quality teams, lobbyists, regulatory experts, marketing… and all the support staff to support them as well as all the tools used in drug development, tests, approvals, production, and distribution. The result is companies that themselves resemble biological entities, possessing staggering capabilities, but at the cost (and even as a result) of complex and unpredictable systems and teams and individuals.

Predictive powers … your mileage will vary. On the other hand, I am personally entranced by prescriptive powers: the ability to create and shape and carve the future based on what we decide we want it to be.

There is, for example, no denying that without Elon Musk, electric cars would not be where they are now (and this is from a guy who thinks that electric cars will never compete, on a utilitarian valuation, with internal combustion-engined cars). Musk applied his vision and sold it to people. Nobody predicted Elon Musk.

Similarly, Steve Jobs (and other great visionaries) took this one step further: he did not give people what they needed. He TOLD people what they needed, and created entirely new markets for things that people now cannot live without – but somehow had functioned perfectly well without in the past. Coupled with a great engineering company, Jobs showed that his prescriptive vision could alter the course of human history. That is impressive.

Ultimately, it is the popularization of tools that enables maximal human prescriptive powers. Edison invented the phonograph, but he thought the purpose of a phonograph was to record last wills and testaments! It was everyone else who pioneered so many other uses for analog storage systems.

From a societal level down to the individual person, visionaries create everything from new drugs and software to personalized curtains. The modern age, with our unprecedented wealth and access to tools and the knowledge of how to use them, opens the gates of heaven for every person who dares look upward.

For me, the archetypal prescriptive tool is the Torah. The text does not tell us what the natural world is, or how to use an abacus. There are no predictive tools in the Torah. But as a prescriptive document, it forms the basis of Western Civilization. The Torah tells us how we can grow, how we are to build productive and constructive and beautiful relationships with each other, and with our Creator. It tells us to be holy, and then explains what holiness means.

If we think of our underlying religious presuppositions as guidance for our lives (e.g. Do we think our lives should have meaning and purpose? Can we seek to understand what that purpose can be?), then we can work to ask ourselves those questions and make something of ourselves. Not because the world (and certainly not humanity) is predictable, but because we each have the opportunity to help shape the future. And the sooner we all recognize and embrace this way of seeing the world, the better our tomorrow’s look.

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  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    iWe (View Comment):
    In the long run, if Jews leave G-d, then bad things will happen. In the short run, there is nothing clearly causal.

    Do you mean when we individually leave, or as a people?

    • #31
  2. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    I write to figure out what I think.

    That might possibly explain rather a lot. I wish you had mentioned it before, and frequently.

    Seriously? Doesn’t everyone do this?

    I never did. You’re the first person I’ve ever heard mention it.

    E.M. Forster. Flannery O’Connor

    • #32
  3. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    Is the sentence about the short run supposed to mean that there aren’t very tight error bars? And what is an error bar? Same thing as a margin of error?

    In a scientific experiment, error bars are the zones within which the data is considered valid, and outside of which, the data is either invalid or the theory is in trouble.

    This is because there is no such thing as absolute precision in measurement.

    • #33
  4. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    In the long run, if Jews leave G-d, then bad things will happen. In the short run, there is nothing clearly causal.

    Do you mean when we individually leave, or as a people?

    I think individually, the result is in the action: if we leave G-d, then He leaves us.

    Societally, there are repercussions. G-d wants people to always have the opportunity to improve, to grow, to come back. In the Torah, making such a rapprochement impossible invites divine wrath.

    • #34
  5. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    I write to figure out what I think.

    That might possibly explain rather a lot. I wish you had mentioned it before, and frequently.

    Seriously? Doesn’t everyone do this?

    I never did. You’re the first person I’ve ever heard mention it.

    The concept has a long history: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2019/12/11/know-say/

    Quote Investigator: The earliest match known to QI appeared in the 1926 book “The Art of Thought” by Graham Wallas who was Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of London. Wallas suggested that the processes of thinking and expressing were entangled for the poet because the precise selection of words was crucial to success. Wallas attributed the saying under examination to an anonymous young girl. Boldface added to excerpts by QI: 1

    The little girl had the making of a poet in her who, being told to be sure of her meaning before she spoke, said, “How can I know what I think till I see what I say?” A modern professed thinker must, however, sooner or later in the process of thought, make the conscious effort of expression, with all its risks.

    The next match known to QI appeared in the 1927 book “Aspects Of The Novel” by the prominent literary figure E. M. Forster who discussed the recent novel “Les Faux Monnayeurs” (“The Counterfeiters”) by André Gide. Gide’s complex work employed a novel-within-a-novel framework, and its plot was presented via fragments. Forster stated that the novel was “all to pieces logically”.

    In the following passage, Forster attributed the saying under examination to an old lady in an anecdote. The phrase “distinguished critic” was a humorous reference to the old lady: 2

    Another distinguished critic has agreed with Gide—that old lady in the anecdote who was accused by her nieces of being illogical. For some time she could not be brought to understand what logic was, and when she grasped its true nature she was not so much angry as contemptuous. “Logic! Good gracious! What rubbish!” she exclaimed. “How can I tell what I think till I see what I say?” Her nieces, educated young women, thought that she was passée; she was really more up to date than they were.

    Thus, the saying was popularized by both Graham Wallas and E. M. Forster although both disclaimed credit for authorship. Instead, the words were ascribed to two anonymous figures: a little girl and an old lady. The saying has also been attributed to Gide. The passage above is not easy to parse. But QI believes that the attribution to Gide is based on a misreading of Forster.

    Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

    In 1928 Forster’s book was reviewed in “The Philadelphia Inquirer” of Pennsylvania. The reviewer incorrectly ascribed the anecdote to Gide: 3

    The author illustrates the prevalent confusion in the plots of modern novels by the anecdote taken from Gide of the old lady who disdained logic, “What rubbish!” she says, “How can I tell what I think until I see what I say?”

    In 1934 Sir Herbert Samuel employed the saying together with a variant while speaking in the U.K. Parliament. His remarks appeared in the Hansard 4
    and in “The Manchester Guardian”: 5

    It reminded him of the little girl who said, “How do I know what I think till I see what I say” (Laughter.) The Minister of Agriculture asked, apparently, “How do I know what I want till I see what I do?” (Opposition laughter.)

    In 1943 “The Bennington Evening Banner” printed a variant ascribed to a political figure: 6

    “I don’t know what I think until I hear what I say” was the way Senator Austin referred to his present position on the subsidy issue. He frankly told his audience that he was still listening to evidence and said he would not take a stand until he “saw the issue clear”

    In 1945 “The Sketch” of London printed a version: 7

    . . . the well-known Chatty Woman: “How can I know what I think until I have heard what I’ve said?”

    In 1949 “The Dictionary of Humorous Quotations” compiled by Evan Esar printed a thematically related statement attributed to the English writer Horace Walpole who died in 1797. Oddly, this is the first evidence for this statement know to QI: 8

    WALPOLE, Horace, I717-1797, English author, letter writer, and antiquarian.
    I never understand anything until I have written about it.

    In 1949 “Fun Fare: A Treasury of Reader’s Digest Wit and Humor” included a short piece about a lady described as a “perpetual talker” who was asked if she ever thought with deliberation about what she was planning to say: 9

    “Why, no,” said the lady solemnly. “How on earth could I know what I think about a thing until I’ve heard what I have to say on the subject?”
    — Murl Corbett

    In 1956 the “Chicago Tribune” ascribed an instance to the English-American poet W. H. Auden, and pointed to a 1948 book by Auden: 10

    “How can I know what I think till I see what I say?”—W. H. Auden in “Poets at Work.”

    In 1961 scholar W. N. Ince also credited Auden with the saying: 11

    Auden was making much the same point when he wrote:
    How can I know what I think till I see what I say?

    In 1962 W. H. Auden published “The Dyer’s Hand And Other Essays”. Auden carefully credited the saying to the old lady in the tale relayed by E. M. Forster: 12

    A poet has to woo, not only his own Muse but also Dame Philology, and, for the beginner, the latter is the more important. As a rule, the sign that a beginner has a genuine original talent is that he is more interested in playing with words than in saying something original; his attitude is that of the old lady, quoted by E. M. Forster—“How can I know what I think till I see what I say?” It is only later, when he has wooed and won Dame Philology, that he can give his entire devotion to his Muse.

    C. S. Lewis was a notable fantasy author and lay theologian who died in 1963. Lewis’s literary executor, Walter Hooper, described a conversation during which Lewis employed a version of the saying: 13

    He told me that the thing he most loved about writing was that it did two things at once. This he illustrated by saying: ‘I don’t know what I mean till I see what I’ve said.’ In other words, writing and thinking were a single process.

    In 1964 anti-totalitarian writer Arthur Koestler employed the saying: 14

    The vital importance of language as a thought-crystallizer was perfectly described by little Alice who, on being admonished to think carefully before she spoke, indignantly exclaimed: ‘How can I know what I think till I see what I say?’ For it is, of course, undeniable that in some forms of intellectual activity language is not only an indispensable tool, but that the stream of language actually carries the thought, so that the processes of ideation and verbal formulation become indistinguishable.

    In 1968 “The New Yorker” printed an item containing a variant together with a citation: 15

    There is a certain wisdom in the quip made by a psychologist at Woods Hole: “How do I know what I think until I feel what I do?”—Jerome S. Bruner in “The Process of Education,”1960.

    In 1987 “The Wit and Wisdom of the 20th Century” credited the saying to a political figure and presented a 1946 citation: 16

    How can I know what I think until I have heard what I have said?
    Christopher Hollis (Conservative MP for Devizes).
    Quoted News Review 12 Dec 1946

    In 1990 Charles Handy who was a professor for many years at the London Business School credited the saying to an anonymous Irishman: 17

    I am a great believer in so-called Irish Education, named after the Irishman who reputedly said, “How do I know what I think until I hear what I say?”

    In conclusion, in 1926 Graham Wallas attributed the expression to a little girl. In 1927 E. M. Forster attributed the expression to an old lady. Both of them helped to popularize the saying. W. H. Auden also used the saying, but he referred back to Forster.

     

    • #35
  6. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    • #36
  7. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    iWe: A Meander: Prediction vs Prescription, Science, Engineering and the Meaning of Life

    I know this one! I know this one!

    42!

    No! 56!

    (So there.)

    (Oops. My bad. It’s 54.)

    (“What do you get if you multiply six by nine? I’ve always said there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe.”)

    To paraphrase Slartibartfast, that’s where the whole story falls to the ground. “42” might theoretically be “the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.” But even granting that, either “what do you get if you multiply six by nine” OR “what do you get if you multiply six by seven” is a useless BS claptrap “question.”

    Yeah, I read the whole 5-book trilogy, but it was so long ago, I forgot a lot of it. Thanks for the clarification. And for the mention of ol’ Slarty.

    And by the way, whenever I think about economics I always think about the Golgafrinchans who used leaves as money, and hoarded it, until they crumpled and crumbled apart. Leaf-fiat currency never lasts.

    I suppose Adams could have been trying to make the point that having “an answer” is useless if you don’t really know the question.  But it was, at best, a half-assed approach to the issue.  More like quarter-assed or even less.

    • #38
  9. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    iWe, I found your well organized  thinking on this topic to be overwhelmingly brilliant and it gives me a great deal to think about.

    I will be referring to it for a long time.

    I hope it makes it to the post of the month. (If we have such.)

    • #39
  10. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists?  Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools.  Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    • #40
  11. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    I write to figure out what I think.

    That might possibly explain rather a lot. I wish you had mentioned it before, and frequently.

    Seriously? Doesn’t everyone do this?

    An adage I keep in mind – it was posted on the wall of my tenth grade English classroom:

    How do I know what I think until I read what I write?

    I’m trying to remember to whom that was first attributed.  My drafts folders on my computer are stuffed to the gills with various essay remains as I tried to work through things.

    • #41
  12. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools. Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    Hand them a copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. That will keep them busy for a while.

    • #42
  13. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools.

    That they are! I have no patience for nonsense.

    • #43
  14. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Percival (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools. Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    Hand them a copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. That will keep them busy for a while.

    Yes, but it won’t make them leave, and because you have given them a book they then assume you want to talk about it….

    To talk about it with them.  

    In depth.  

    At their earliest convenience.

    Without the aid of either coffee of booze.

    Better to give them a hard blank stare, and then whisper “You’re getting too close, I’ve been sent to warn you.”

    • #44
  15. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools. Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    • #45
  16. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    Percival (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools. Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    Hand them a copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. That will keep them busy for a while.

    Well, whether it will delight you or perplex you, a recent meme regarding chem trails offered this up: the two major ingredients suspected of being found in chem trails, aluminum and barium = BA AL

    This indicates there is really no written material of any type at all where someone cannot find hidden meanings.

    On edit: BA AL now illustrated in a vintage manner —

     

     

    • #46
  17. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Creating new things is not scientific. Engineers care about what works, not what is True. Nor do engineers, unlike, say, mathematicians, often make things that are perfect, that can never be improved-upon. Instead, I offer that engineers are doing something much more open-ended and interesting: engineers always have to keep working and growing and improving. There is no “best for evermore” mousetrap or software program or packaging plant.

    But doesn’t what works depend on what is true? If your physics is wrong, your plane isn’t going to fly. And if your understanding of human physiology and psychology isn’t good, then your plane won’t be comfortable to fly in and people won’t want to fly on it. 

    The great innovators like Steve Jobs had a profound understanding of human nature (at least in certain aspects). Jobs designed his Macintosh computers around human nature (right down to the fonts),  making the machines fit human nature rather than forcing people to fit the machines (as was done in traditional manufacturing).  So I agree with you that innovators expand the boundaries of what may even be thought possible, they do so only based on a true understanding of the underlying nature in question.

     

    • #47
  18. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    I did not think there was any way you could make this topic even better, but now you  just did.

    • #48
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    iWe: There are no predictive tools in the Torah.

    Have you ever had your ear chewed off by numerologists? Ugh – they’re convinced that the Torah is chocked full of predictive tools. Bunch of bloody-minded gnostics, the lot of ’em, of the sort who go looking for hidden messages in Rand McNally atlases.

    Hand them a copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. That will keep them busy for a while.

    Yes, but it won’t make them leave, and because you have given them a book they then assume you want to talk about it….

    To talk about it with them.

    In depth.

    At their earliest convenience.

    Without the aid of either coffee of booze.

    Better to give them a hard blank stare, and then whisper “You’re getting too close, I’ve been sent to warn you.”

    I think you’d really enjoy at least one episode of Crusade, the follow-up series to Babylon 5.  “Visitors From Down The Street.”

    Video is reversed I guess to prevent detection by WB, but still watchable.  I can also tell from the music that it’s slowed down a bit, that’s something else they do.

    • #49
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    iWe: A Meander: Prediction vs Prescription, Science, Engineering and the Meaning of Life

    I know this one! I know this one!

    42!

    No! 56!

    (So there.)

    (Oops. My bad. It’s 54.)

    (“What do you get if you multiply six by nine? I’ve always said there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe.”)

    To paraphrase Slartibartfast, that’s where the whole story falls to the ground. “42” might theoretically be “the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.” But even granting that, either “what do you get if you multiply six by nine” OR “what do you get if you multiply six by seven” is a useless BS claptrap “question.”

    Yeah, I read the whole 5-book trilogy, but it was so long ago, I forgot a lot of it. Thanks for the clarification. And for the mention of ol’ Slarty.

    And by the way, whenever I think about economics I always think about the Golgafrinchans who used leaves as money, and hoarded it, until they crumpled and crumbled apart. Leaf-fiat currency never lasts.

    I suppose Adams could have been trying to make the point that having “an answer” is useless if you don’t really know the question. But it was, at best, a half-assed approach to the issue. More like quarter-assed or even less.

    Adams is reputed to have said the answer was in base 13.  I haven’t bothered to check.

    • #50
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    I write to figure out what I think.

    That might possibly explain rather a lot. I wish you had mentioned it before, and frequently.

    Seriously? Doesn’t everyone do this?

    I never did. You’re the first person I’ve ever heard mention it.

    E.M. Forster. Flannery O’Connor

    Ok, now I’ve heard of three.

    • #51
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    Yes, but that is entirely consistent with knowing what you think before you say it. It’s a willingness to learn, not necessarily a slowness to know what you’re thinking.

    • #52
  23. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    iWe: A Meander: Prediction vs Prescription, Science, Engineering and the Meaning of Life

    I know this one! I know this one!

    42!

    No! 56!

    (So there.)

    (Oops. My bad. It’s 54.)

    (“What do you get if you multiply six by nine? I’ve always said there was something fundamentally wrong with the universe.”)

    To paraphrase Slartibartfast, that’s where the whole story falls to the ground. “42” might theoretically be “the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.” But even granting that, either “what do you get if you multiply six by nine” OR “what do you get if you multiply six by seven” is a useless BS claptrap “question.”

    Yeah, I read the whole 5-book trilogy, but it was so long ago, I forgot a lot of it. Thanks for the clarification. And for the mention of ol’ Slarty.

    And by the way, whenever I think about economics I always think about the Golgafrinchans who used leaves as money, and hoarded it, until they crumpled and crumbled apart. Leaf-fiat currency never lasts.

    I suppose Adams could have been trying to make the point that having “an answer” is useless if you don’t really know the question. But it was, at best, a half-assed approach to the issue. More like quarter-assed or even less.

    Adams is reputed to have said the answer was in base 13. I haven’t bothered to check.

    But that wouldn’t affect the useless, pointless, ridiculousness of “the question.”

    • #53
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    Yes, but that is entirely consistent with knowing what you think before you say it. It’s a willingness to learn, not necessarily a slowness to know what you’re thinking.

    There’s also a big difference between writing to learn things you haven’t thought before (which I would imagine every or nearly every writer of non-fiction does at least sometimes) and writing to learn what it is you’re already thinking.

    • #54
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    Yes, but that is entirely consistent with knowing what you think before you say it. It’s a willingness to learn, not necessarily a slowness to know what you’re thinking.

    There’s also a big difference between writing to learn things you haven’t thought before (which I would imagine every or nearly every writer of non-fiction does at least sometimes) and writing to learn what it is you’re already thinking.

    I find that thinking is quite adequate for thinking.  Frankly, I have to feel sorry for anyone who has to write something in order to think it.  And if that was common, mankind would never have progressed because no one could have thought to make paper or whatever to do the writing with.

    • #55
  26. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Creating new things is not scientific. Engineers care about what works, not what is True. Nor do engineers, unlike, say, mathematicians, often make things that are perfect, that can never be improved-upon. Instead, I offer that engineers are doing something much more open-ended and interesting: engineers always have to keep working and growing and improving. There is no “best for evermore” mousetrap or software program or packaging plant.

    But doesn’t what works depend on what is true? If your physics is wrong, your plane isn’t going to fly.

    Not necessarily. Lots of breakthroughs in technology happened as a result of work that was entirely ignorant of underlying physical principles.

    Take ice skates, for example. They work, even on very cold ice – ice that is too cold to melt under the blade. So physicists try to catch up by coming up with theories that explain the principle. But the person who invented ice skates did not need a theory at all: the device works. Who cares why?

    And if your understanding of human physiology and psychology isn’t good, then your plane won’t be comfortable to fly in and people won’t want to fly on it.

    Again, you could get it right but for the wrong reasons.

    The great innovators like Steve Jobs had a profound understanding of human nature (at least in certain aspects). Jobs designed his Macintosh computers around human nature (right down to the fonts), making the machines fit human nature rather than forcing people to fit the machines (as was done in traditional manufacturing). So I agree with you that innovators expand the boundaries of what may even be thought possible,

    We agree this far!

    they do so only based on a true understanding of the underlying nature in question.

    Perhaps. Remember that Jobs had a style, and styles come in and go out, oblivious to any underlying natures. Is the success of bellbottoms a reflection of underlying nature of mankind?

     

     

    • #56
  27. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    There’s also a big difference between writing to learn things you haven’t thought before (which I would imagine every or nearly every writer of non-fiction does at least sometimes) and writing to learn what it is you’re already thinking.

    Have you never written something and had your thoughts go off in new and unexpected directions?

    It is like walking down a path you thought you knew, but discovering all kinds of interesting features along the way, maybe even a detour.

    • #57
  28. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    kedavis (View Comment):
    I find that thinking is quite adequate for thinking. Frankly, I have to feel sorry for anyone who has to write something in order to think it

    Do you play chess without the aid of a chessboard?

    I managed it when I was younger. But I was still a better player when I could SEE the pieces.

    • #58
  29. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    I don’t put a whole lot of stock in Myers-Briggs personality types, but this one semms applicable to me, anyway.

    I had to look this up. But I think I agree very much with this – thoughts have to be tested.

    Yes, but that is entirely consistent with knowing what you think before you say it. It’s a willingness to learn, not necessarily a slowness to know what you’re thinking.

    There’s also a big difference between writing to learn things you haven’t thought before (which I would imagine every or nearly every writer of non-fiction does at least sometimes) and writing to learn what it is you’re already thinking.

    I find that thinking is quite adequate for thinking. Frankly, I have to feel sorry for anyone who has to write something in order to think it. And if that was common, mankind would never have progressed because no one could have thought to make paper or whatever to do the writing with.

    I won’t necessarily think of every objection to what it is that I am thinking.

    • #59
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    There’s also a big difference between writing to learn things you haven’t thought before (which I would imagine every or nearly every writer of non-fiction does at least sometimes) and writing to learn what it is you’re already thinking.

    Have you never written something and had your thoughts go off in new and unexpected directions?

    It is like walking down a path you thought you knew, but discovering all kinds of interesting features along the way, maybe even a detour.

    Yeah, I think that’s happened to me enough times. But that was because I had new thoughts, not because I was figuring out what I was already thinking.

    • #60
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