Natural Justice

 

Animals act in their own self-interest. Every tree and bush, every cat and bird and ant works to maximize itself, without any consideration for others. These creatures compete endlessly, sometimes by themselves, and sometimes in cooperation with others of their species or their parasites. The idea of an animal deliberately and consciously favoring a different animal would be nonsensical. Man is not necessarily any better, of course. As Hobbes put it, the natural state of mankind without society is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” In a state of nature, man is merely another animal.

Natural justice is thus very easy to define: might makes right. This is hardly new or surprising, but it bears mentioning because a good society requires people to not act that way. And so it is troubling to me when people talk of imitating nature. “Natural” becomes synonymous with “good.” In the ancient world, people were more direct: they worshipped nature outright.

The problem with worshipping nature is that we also come to make what happens in nature into something that people ought to emulate. For example, if one worships nature and seeks to imitate it, then what arguments are there for altruism or kindness? What arguments are there for acting outside of our own natures, to choose, for example, to dampen our anger or encourage our empathy for others? If “natural” is good, then acting against our nature must be bad. More than that: it is against nature not to accept “might makes right.”

A key symbol of nature is the tree. Trees are the largest living things a normal person ever sees, and they reflect (or even lead) the seasons and the natural cycles. Trees are about natural life, from generation and growth to renewal. Trees (and poles made from trees) were also broadly worshipped in their own right in the ancient world, as representative of a deity, Asherah.

All of this is my way of getting to an answer to a question that biblical scholars have long wrestled with. And until yesterday, I did not have an answer that made sense to me. Here is the text that prompts the question:

The Torah gives us the following verses, in this specific order:

In all the communities which the LORD, your God, is giving you, you shall appoint judges and officials throughout your tribes to administer righteous justice for the people. You must not distort justice: you shall not show partiality; you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes even of the wise and twists the words even of the just. Justice, justice alone shall you pursue, so that you may live and possess the land the LORD, your God, is giving you. You shall not plant an asherah or any kind of tree next to the altar of the LORD, your God, which you will build.

The question, of course, is why is a tree or an Asherah antithetical to justice and impartiality? What do these verses have to connect them in any way?

The answer is given above: Justice needs to be impartial and blind. A judge cannot decide the winner of a case by choosing whichever party paid the bigger bribe. Yet a natural way to act would be in naked self-interest. If we worship nature, then we cannot pursue justice. If we put a tree in the place where we worship G-d, then we are accepting that nature is a deity, and acting naturally is emulating the divine.

The Torah is making a very important point, as relevant now as it was then: civilization and a just society must act in contrast against, not in consonance with, nature. If we worship nature, then we will seek to emulate it. And if we do that, then we will seek our natural self-interest, solicit bribes, blinding ourselves to what is good and right. A society that worships trees cannot be just.

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  1. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    iWe,

    This is a discussion, perhaps unconsciously, of the Is/Ought dichotomy. Hume was the first philosopher to formally describe it. Quite simply, the concepts one uses to describe human moral behavior are not the same concepts used to describe the natural world. Put in simpler terms, you can’t turn an Is into an Ought nor turn an Ought into an Is.

    As an example, many environmental ideologues talk about Green Energy as if it is morally good. Of course, energy refers to an Is concept and the idea of good & evil refers to an Ought concept and has no relevance to energy. Thus, California mindlessly pursuing Green Energy, as if this alone represents moral goodness, is now failing to produce enough power at peak load and creating blackouts. Even hyper-lefty Gov Gavin Newsome has been forced to admit this.

    Meanwhile, purely moral imperatives against robbery and murder are ignored in leftwing cities. Marxist pseudo-Is arguments are used to override these obvious human choice caused disasters.

    At Least 60 Shot, 5 Killed, over Weekend in Mayor Lightfoot’s Chicago

    … At least 50 people were shot, five fatally, last weekend and at least 35 were shot, four fatally, the weekend before that and 34 were shot, nine fatally, three weekends ago.

    Report: 45 Shot, 5 Killed, Since Friday in Mayor de Blasio’s NYC

    ABC 7 reports the violence included an incident in the Bronx where a gunman ran down “East 152nd Street in the Melrose section,” firing a gun as he went. One of his bullets struck 25-year-old Priscilla Vasquez in the head, killing her.

    Vasquez was a mother of three.

    The left sees morality where there isn’t any and screws up energy production. Then the left sees an inevitable endemic (pseudo-physical) process where human beings are making choices and ignores the most basic moral imperatives thus turning cities into criminal nightmares.

    Imagine walking into a hardware store and asking for a chocolate birthday cake. Imagine walking into a bakery and asking for 3/8″ electric drill. Pretty stupid, yes. Yet that is exactly what we are doing when we try to get an Is from an Ought or an Ought from an Is.

    Regards,

    Jim

    This is why Dr. Russ Shafer-Landau is a non-natural moral realist rather than a natural moral realist.  We can observe nature and see nature for what is “is.”  But then we can view morality and see it for what we “ought” to do.

    • #31
  2. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    iWe (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    the denial of natural law implies that creatures have no intelligible natures, or at least any intelligible natures that have moral implications with respect to them. How, then, could they be creations of God?

    Your assertion then is that G-d cannot make something that lacks morals?

    No, it’s not. You’ve misunderstood me.

    Isn’t He capable of that? What if what we are supposed to learn what not to do from something that G-d made? Is “good” in the Torah the same to youas moral and godly and perfect? Because to me, the “good” in the Torah means a move in the right direction, not a moral judgement.

    Is it good or bad to move in the right direction?

    And I have no problem learning from animals how people should not behave. That is a useful lesson to learn from the cruelty of cats.

            The denial of natural law has atheistic implications.

             Only to those who believe in a line of argumentation that leads to that conclusion.

    Well, of course. But that includes a lot of people, who have drawn the atheistic implications.

    I do not believe that nature or the nature of things carries any moral lesson to humanity whatsoever.

    I’m not sure what to make of this given you just finished saying you learned a useful lesson from the cruelty of cats. In any case, this is a statement generally agreed to by atheists.

    That is what the Torah is for.

    So the difference between you and an atheist is that you both agree you can learn nothing of right and wrong from nature, but you have a book that gives you the moral lessons. What of the person who has never heard of the Torah? They must be entirely bereft of morals, correct, since they have no place from which to learn them?

     

    • #32
  3. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What sense of the word “nature” would that be?

    I find the use of “natural” in “natural law” to be quite misleading, as it suggests an objective, non-divine foundation for moral principles. I think that this belief is a grave error, and an important factor in our current moral confusion.

    Old answer from 2015:

    Aug.’s old post:

    2. We believe that things have natures. And when I say “natures,” I mean the sort of “nature” in sentences like “It is the nature of the heart to pump blood” or “The natural function of the kidneys is to clean out the blood.” I don’t mean “the natural world” or “the laws of physics” or “the way things usually are.” (In the dictionary, I mean numbers 8, 10, and 18.)

    In general, “the nature of X” refers to the kind of thing X is. And natures have implications for how a thing should be; it should be used in accordance with its nature, and not contrary to it. (This is the sort of ethics you get in Alasdair MacIntyre and others in the Aristotelian tradition.)

    The fact that things have natures is the reason they have proper functions. The proper function of a heart is to pump blood, because its nature is that of a blood-pumping thing. The function of an eye is to see, because it is a seeing thing. The function of a leg is to walk, because it is a walking thing.

    In really big stuff, the function of a human being is to do such-and-such, because the human being is a such-and-such-doing kind of thing. Such-and-such might be having reason govern bodily appetites (Plato, Aristotle, C. S. Lewis), or loving God and neighbor (various confessions of faith and, again, Lewis), or living according to moral law (Stoic philosophers or, perhaps, Kant; and maybe Confucius and, again, Lewis).

    I do understand the idea. It is erroneous, in my view, as demonstrated by your examples of disagreements about the “natural” functions of humans.

    To what disagreements do you refer?

    I’ll have to answer your comments in pieces, due to space limitations.

    You appear to cite Plato and Socrates, the Stoic philosophers, Kant, and Confucius as examples of natural law theory, but I think that they conflict with each other, and they conflict with the Catholic view.  So there is disagreement about the nature of man and disagreement about the proper function of certain human activities, even among those adopting the “natural law” approach.  I do not see any reasoned way to determine which is correct.  There must be either a divine revelation, or an atheistic assertion of premises that are not, themselves, based on reason.

     

    • #33
  4. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    iWe (View Comment):

     

    Only to those who believe in a line of argumentation that leads to that conclusion. I do not believe that nature or the nature of things carries any moral lesson to humanity whatsoever. That is what the Torah is for.

    My main problem with this is that it implies God might create things just to frustrate their natures.

    Dogs, for instance, are by nature social pack animals. It’s cruel to keep a dog penned up and isolated in a cage its entire life because it frustrates the dog’s nature. You don’t need the Torah to tell you that.  We can know it just by understanding the nature of dogs, and in light of the principle that the natures of God’s creatures should be respected rather than abused when possible. Crating dogs their entire lives isn’t wrong because God arbitrarily said it was wrong (when He might just as easily have said it was right), but because God created dogs with a certain nature that flourishes in a certain way. Any reasonable person can figure that out. You don’t need a holy book.

    Human beings are unique among animals in that we are “rational animals.” Because of that, it is in our nature to need education, and a person who is deliberately kept ignorant (as slaves were in the antebellum South) has had a wrong done to him. God would never command perpetual ignorance upon people, because He wouldn’t create a rational animal just to keep it ignorant. God is not evil.  He wants His creatures to fulfill their natures, not frustrate them. So we are perfectly right in “reading off” morals from nature. This is why heathen peoples, never having heard of the Bible, are not entirely bereft of moral sense.

     

    • #34
  5. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    . . .

    I don’t expect to convince you, given your Ricochet handle. I think that it is a major mistake to confuse divine revelation with human reason. Reason is manifestly insufficient.

    Right on. But why would you expect me to be hard to convince?

    I expect that it will be difficult to convince you that the “natural law” doctrine is an error, because you have adopted “Saint Augustine” as your Ricochet name, and he is associated quite strongly with natural law doctrine.  I realize that it is possible that you just took the name of a city in Florida, without any philosophical overtones, but that’s not my impression.

    I’ve discovered something in my Bible studies. When Scripture seems to be at odds with my reasoning, I generally find that the problem is me, and my erroneous reasoning or erroneous premises. I haven’t thought about everything, but I’ve seen this happen often enough that I now have more confidence in Scripture than in myself.

    Right on, right on!

    It is a good thing that we end up with agreement.

    I find the “natural law” doctrine to be a bad idea because it seems to assume that a proper moral code can be derived from pure reason, which I think is an error, and it seems to try to meet unbelievers on their battleground, on which no victory is possible.

    I think that it would be more useful to point out that those trying to derive a universal moral code without a theistic basis are engaging in an impossible endeavor, and they need to understand that it is impossible.  They are building on a foundation of sand, as a certain Galilean carpenter once pointed out.  This does not mean that the theistic approach is correct, but it means that any other system is going to be based on premises that are asserted as a matter of individual preference, or group consensus (which is just a summation of individual preferences).

    • #35
  6. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t know how there can be moral law without a moral lawgiver.

    There cannot. Nothing can exist without it being created.

    That means G-d exists if moral law exists.

    It means that some creator exists.

    Some moral realists argue that moral law is conceptually prior to even God.

    In other words, this kind of moral realist would place a lot of emphasis on the God’s omniscience and omnibenevolence and less on God’s omnipotence.

    Why? Because in the eyes of these kinds of moral realists, God can not, for example, make torturing children “good.” Thus, God is simply an ideal observer of the moral law, omniscient.

    Here is an excerpt from “Moral Realism: A Defense,” by Dr. Russ Shafer-Landau (professor of philosophy at the University of Wisconsin and a non-natural moral realist).

    An ethical relativism of the sort embraced by Harman (1975) or Wong (1984) claims that what moral reality there is is fixed entirely by certain social agreements. The reality—what really is right and wrong, for instance—is constructed from the content of these agreements. Realists, by contrast, will claim that what really is right and wrong is conceptually and existentially independent of any such agreements. Indeed, for realists, moral reality is conceptually prior to and existentially independent of the moral truths we can construct even from the responses of an ideal observer. It maybe, given a precise enough characterization of an ideal observer, that his judgements are inerrant. The realist could allow, in other words, that there is a strong conceptual connection between the responses of a suitably characterized ideal observer and the content of moral reality. But, for the realist, that would be because the ideal observer would never fail to see what was right and wrong anyway. The responses of an idealized observer would not be constitutive of moral truth, but merely bear a very close (perhaps perfect) correlation with a set of truths whose conditions may be fixed without any reference to such an observer.

    So, God could be an ideal observer, perfectly understanding the moral realm and perfectly adhering to that moral realm. But could not make helping a disabled person cross the street “evil” nor could God make genocide “good.”

    Dr. Russ Shafer-Landau has also written an easier to read version of “Moral Realism: A Defense,” titled, “Whatever Happened to Good and Evil?” It’s only 136 pages.

    Also, Erik Weilenberg and Peter Railton have written extensively on moral realism. Weilenberg is a non-natural moral realist and Railton is a natural moral realist.

    I understand that people make assertions, such as the moral realists who, from the explanation that you quote, appear to posit a moral reality without any foundation, and hypothesize an ideal observer whose existence they deny (if they are not theists)

    They are building on a foundation of sand, and they don’t even seem to know it.

    • #36
  7. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Human beings are unique among animals in that we are “rational animals.” Because of that, it is in our nature to need education, and a person who is deliberately kept ignorant (as slaves were in the antebellum South) has had a wrong done to him. God would never command perpetual ignorance upon people, because He wouldn’t create a rational animal just to keep it ignorant. God is not evil. He wants His creatures to fulfill their natures, not frustrate them. So we are perfectly right in “reading off” morals from nature. This is why heathen peoples, never having heard of the Bible, are not entirely bereft of moral sense.

     

    I’d point out a couple of things. Heathen people are not bereft of any “moral sense,” but is that what it is? Might they behave properly because it’s in their own best interest to do so? Or some people have a tendency to be compassionate or helpful or kind–but they are not acting out of a moral sense.

    Also, regarding people’s exposure to Torah, G-d doesn’t expect everyone to be Jews. But he did provide the Noahide laws for everyone, for all times and in all places. 

    • #37
  8. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Human beings are unique among animals in that we are “rational animals.” Because of that, it is in our nature to need education, and a person who is deliberately kept ignorant (as slaves were in the antebellum South) has had a wrong done to him. God would never command perpetual ignorance upon people, because He wouldn’t create a rational animal just to keep it ignorant. God is not evil. He wants His creatures to fulfill their natures, not frustrate them. So we are perfectly right in “reading off” morals from nature. This is why heathen peoples, never having heard of the Bible, are not entirely bereft of moral sense.

     

    I’d point out a couple of things. Heathen people are not bereft of any “moral sense,” but is that what it is? Might they behave properly because it’s in their own best interest to do so?

    I would say that acting in your own self-interest (properly understood) is part of being a moral person. The best things in life – love, friendship, trust, family – are available only to the moral. That is one of the lessons of Aristotle. Someone of low character – an inveterate liar, for instance – will never experience true friendship.  I don’t think that, absent Revelation, man can know the entirety of the moral law. What I object to is the assertion that he can’t know anything at all about it absent Revelation. This seems to me manifestly false. 

    Or some people have a tendency to be compassionate or helpful or kind–but they are not acting out of a moral sense.

    That is true, but we could say the same thing about religious believers as well, can’t we? How many of us go to Church or Temple out of habit and not much more, or go along with the prescriptions of our faith simply because it is easier to do that than buck our family or community? But we wouldn’t say religious faith is limited to that because some people practice it that way. Some non-believers are compassionate out of a kind nature, for sure, but there are others who do so on rational grounds.

    • #38
  9. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    What of the person who has never heard of the Torah? They must be entirely bereft of morals, correct, since they have no place from which to learn them?

    We have a world of non-Torah religions that tell us what happens. We get eastern religions that do not value individual rights or lives. 

    They build functioning societies, but not necessarily good ones. Certainly they failed on their own to grow and improve humanity and the world. It is no accident that capitalism and the liberal arts and  prolonged technological innovation has only come out of the West. 

    They evolve a moral code, but it is not recognizably good. That non-Torah moral code is functional, and does not welcome or accept dissonant voices or individual freedom. 

    • #39
  10. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the “natural law” doctrine to be a bad idea because it seems to assume that a proper moral code can be derived from pure reason, which I think is an error, and it seems to try to meet unbelievers on their battleground, on which no victory is possible.

    I agree with this 100%.

    • #40
  11. J Climacus Member
    J Climacus
    @JClimacus

    iWe (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    What of the person who has never heard of the Torah? They must be entirely bereft of morals, correct, since they have no place from which to learn them?

    We have a world of non-Torah religions that tell us what happens. We get eastern religions that do not value individual rights or lives.

    They build functioning societies, but not necessarily good ones. Certainly they failed on their own to grow and improve humanity and the world. It is no accident that capitalism and the liberal arts and prolonged technological innovation has only come out of the West.

    They evolve a moral code, but it is not recognizably good. That non-Torah moral code is functional, and does not welcome or accept dissonant voices or individual freedom.

    You’re not going to get an argument from me that the West isn’t a superior culture to the East. I’m one of the most pro-West partisans on Ricochet. But that admission need not force us to conclude that the East has nothing to offer, and certainly not that the East is bereft of moral sense. The most we can conclude is that the moral reasoning of the East is limited, which is exactly what I claim. That’s different than saying that the moral reasoning of the East is entirely null, which I think is your position.

    The moral code of the East is not recognizably good? Not at all? They have families in the East, are taught to tell the truth and respect their parents, to work hard and make something of yourself. Those seem to be good things. Asian-Americans are the least criminal demographic in the United States. They must be doing something right, if not everything right.

    • #41
  12. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    The moral code of the East is not recognizably good? Not at all? They have families in the East, are taught to tell the truth and respect their parents, to work hard and make something of yourself. Those seem to be good things. Asian-Americans are the least criminal demographic in the United States. They must be doing something right, if not everything right.

    In this case I tend to agree with you, at least regarding Buddhism. The 16 Bodhisattva Precepts sound much like the Ten Commandments, except they don’t say “Thou Shalt Not” and practitioners “vow” to follow them. To non-religious Westerners, this is a big deal.

    • #42
  13. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    iWe (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the “natural law” doctrine to be a bad idea because it seems to assume that a proper moral code can be derived from pure reason, which I think is an error, and it seems to try to meet unbelievers on their battleground, on which no victory is possible.

    I agree with this 100%.

    A question:  Is is proper for me to “like” a comment that is simply agreeing with my own prior comment?  I did so anyway, but it felt self-congratulatory, something like the psychic equivalent of that pain in the arm that occurs when you get carried away patting yourself on the back.  :)

    • #43
  14. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Human beings are unique among animals in that we are “rational animals.” Because of that, it is in our nature to need education, and a person who is deliberately kept ignorant (as slaves were in the antebellum South) has had a wrong done to him. God would never command perpetual ignorance upon people, because He wouldn’t create a rational animal just to keep it ignorant. God is not evil. He wants His creatures to fulfill their natures, not frustrate them. So we are perfectly right in “reading off” morals from nature. This is why heathen peoples, never having heard of the Bible, are not entirely bereft of moral sense.

     

    I’d point out a couple of things. Heathen people are not bereft of any “moral sense,” but is that what it is? Might they behave properly because it’s in their own best interest to do so? Or some people have a tendency to be compassionate or helpful or kind–but they are not acting out of a moral sense.

    Also, regarding people’s exposure to Torah, G-d doesn’t expect everyone to be Jews. But he did provide the Noahide laws for everyone, for all times and in all places.

    A post on the Jewish view of the Noahide laws would be interesting.  I’m skeptical, as they appear to be part of an oral tradition, and not part of the Old Testament itself.  It’s also not clear how people other than the Jews are supposed to know about these rules.

    • #44
  15. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Chesterton wrote about this topic:

    . . . The mere pursuit of health always leads to something unhealthy. . . .

    Coronavirus response.

    • #45
  16. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I find the “natural law” doctrine to be a bad idea because it seems to assume that a proper moral code can be derived from pure reason, which I think is an error, and it seems to try to meet unbelievers on their battleground, on which no victory is possible.

    I agree with this 100%.

    A question: Is is proper for me to “like” a comment that is simply agreeing with my own prior comment? I did so anyway, but it felt self-congratulatory, something like the psychic equivalent of that pain in the arm that occurs when you get carried away patting yourself on the back. :)

    If the Comment just expresses the agreement of the Commenter, I think it’s my practice not to Like it.  I would be expressing only this idea, “I like it when people agree with me”, which, because it is true for everyone and every such comment, is not expressing any idea at all.

    If the Comment adds something to what I’d written, my practice is this. If it adds something that I disagree with, I don’t Like it. If it adds something that I think is positive, I do.

    For example, I recently wrote something criticizing a certain kind of political behavior, and gave examples. A Commenter (a) agreed with me and (b) added something to my article: he gave additional examples of the class of behavior. I didn’t agree that the examples he gave were instances of the class I was criticizing.  He had misunderstood my article. Even though he agreed with me superficially, I decided not to Like it.

    • #46
  17. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    If the Comment just expresses the agreement of the Commenter, I think it’s my practice not to Like it. I would be expressing only this idea, “I like it when people agree with me”, which, because it is true for everyone and every such comment, is not expressing any idea at all.

    I will share Rodin’s 5 rules of “liking”:

    1. “Like” every comment on your own post to acknowledge and thank the commenter for taking time to read your post and comment.
    2. “Like” every comment that quotes your prior comment to let that person know that you have seen and corrected, amplified, or otherwise engaged your comment.
    3. “Like” every post on the Members Feed that you think merits consideration for the Main Feed.
    4. “Like” every post in a Group that you follow to express appreciation for participation and encourage more activity in that Group — all the more so if you are the administrator for that Group.
    5. If none of 1-4 above apply, “like” posts and comments if you agree with the sentiment or simply appreciate the craft.
    • #47
  18. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some moral realists argue that moral law is conceptually prior to even God.

    In other words, this kind of moral realist would place a lot of emphasis on the God’s omniscience and omnibenevolence and less on God’s omnipotence.

    Why? Because in the eyes of these kinds of moral realists, God can not, for example, make torturing children “good.” Thus, God is simply an ideal observer of the moral law, omniscient.

    Here is an excerpt from “Moral Realism: A Defense,” by Dr. Russ Shafer-Landau (professor of philosophy at the University of Wisconsin and a non-natural moral realist).

    An ethical relativism of the sort embraced by Harman (1975) or Wong (1984) claims that what moral reality there is is fixed entirely by certain social agreements. The reality—what really is right and wrong, for instance—is constructed from the content of these agreements. Realists, by contrast, will claim that what really is right and wrong is conceptually and existentially independent of any such agreements. Indeed, for realists, moral reality is conceptually prior to and existentially independent of the moral truths we can construct even from the responses of an ideal observer. It maybe, given a precise enough characterization of an ideal observer, that his judgements are inerrant. The realist could allow, in other words, that there is a strong conceptual connection between the responses of a suitably characterized ideal observer and the content of moral reality. But, for the realist, that would be because the ideal observer would never fail to see what was right and wrong anyway. The responses of an idealized observer would not be constitutive of moral truth, but merely bear a very close (perhaps perfect) correlation with a set of truths whose conditions may be fixed without any reference to such an observer.

    So, God could be an ideal observer, perfectly understanding the moral realm and perfectly adhering to that moral realm. But could not make helping a disabled person cross the street “evil” nor could God make genocide “good.”

    Dr. Russ Shafer-Landau has also written an easier to read version of “Moral Realism: A Defense,” titled, “Whatever Happened to Good and Evil?” It’s only 136 pages.

    Also, Erik Weilenberg and Peter Railton have written extensively on moral realism. Weilenberg is a non-natural moral realist and Railton is a natural moral realist.

    I understand that people make assertions, such as the moral realists who, from the explanation that you quote, appear to posit a moral reality without any foundation, and hypothesize an ideal observer whose existence they deny (if they are not theists)

    They are building on a foundation of sand, and they don’t even seem to know it.

    It’s not building a foundation on sand.  It’s arguing that the moral reality is the foundation.  If there is a God, even God could not make genocide “good.”

    • #48
  19. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    And I have no problem learning from animals how people should not behave. That is a useful lesson to learn from the cruelty of cats.

    Indeed. Cats truly are evil.

    • #49
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    J Climacus (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I find the use of “natural” in “natural law” to be quite misleading, . . . .

    “Nature” in this context means “animating principle or principles”, as in “it is the nature of dogs to hunt” or “it is in the nature of men to be social” or “it is distinctive of the nature of man that he is the only rational animal” or even “it is the nature of God that He is the Most Perfect Being.”

    It doesn’t matter whether someone agrees or disagrees with these statements. The point is that this use of “nature” is orthogonal to the more usual contemporary usage of “nature”, which is to distinguish a realm of being distinct from God, as in “the natural vs the supernatural.” The old usage of “nature” in the context of “natural law” cuts across our contemporary nature/supernature distinction.

    . . .

    In the converse case, the denial of natural law implies that creatures have no intelligible natures, or at least any intelligible natures that have moral implications with respect to them. How, then, could they be creations of God? The denial of natural law has atheistic implications.

    iWe (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    The denial of natural law has atheistic implications.

    Only to those who believe in a line of argumentation that leads to that conclusion. I do not believe that nature or the nature of things carries any moral lesson to humanity whatsoever. That is what the Torah is for.

    “Nature” in what sense of the term?

    • #50
  21. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Some moral realists argue that moral law is conceptually prior to even God.

    In other words, this kind of moral realist would place a lot of emphasis on the God’s omniscience and omnibenevolence and less on God’s omnipotence.

    Why? Because in the eyes of these kinds of moral realists, God can not, for example, make torturing children “good.” Thus, God is simply an ideal observer of the moral law, omniscient.

    . . .

    The usual approach by those who say G-d is the source of moral law is to agree that G-d cannot make torturing children for fun good.

    The idea is that morality comes from G-d’s good character.  For G-d to act against his character is in fact an impossibility.

    (This is the approach of Robert Adams, C. Stephen Evans, William Lane Craig, etc. And, from what I can tell, the whole host of medieval theologians who believe in the doctrine of divine simplicity–Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, Aquinas, etc.)

    • #51
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Aug.’s old post:

    2. We believe that things have natures. And when I say “natures,” I mean the sort of “nature” in sentences like “It is the nature of the heart to pump blood” or “The natural function of the kidneys is to clean out the blood.” I don’t mean “the natural world” or “the laws of physics” or “the way things usually are.” (In the dictionary, I mean numbers 8, 10, and 18.)

    In general, “the nature of X” refers to the kind of thing X is. And natures have implications for how a thing should be; it should be used in accordance with its nature, and not contrary to it. (This is the sort of ethics you get in Alasdair MacIntyre and others in the Aristotelian tradition.)

    The fact that things have natures is the reason they have proper functions. The proper function of a heart is to pump blood, because its nature is that of a blood-pumping thing. The function of an eye is to see, because it is a seeing thing. The function of a leg is to walk, because it is a walking thing.

    In really big stuff, the function of a human being is to do such-and-such, because the human being is a such-and-such-doing kind of thing. Such-and-such might be having reason govern bodily appetites (Plato, Aristotle, C. S. Lewis), or loving God and neighbor (various confessions of faith and, again, Lewis), or living according to moral law (Stoic philosophers or, perhaps, Kant; and maybe Confucius and, again, Lewis).

    I do understand the idea. It is erroneous, in my view, as demonstrated by your examples of disagreements about the “natural” functions of humans.

    To what disagreements do you refer?

    I’ll have to answer your comments in pieces, due to space limitations.

    You appear to cite Plato and Socrates, the Stoic philosophers, Kant, and Confucius as examples of natural law theory, but I think that they conflict with each other, and they conflict with the Catholic view. So there is disagreement about the nature of man and disagreement about the proper function of certain human activities, even among those adopting the “natural law” approach. I do not see any reasoned way to determine which is correct. There must be either a divine revelation, or an atheistic assertion of premises that are not, themselves, based on reason.

    Ok, but I never cited “examples of disagreements.”

    And you think these views I cited conflict. That’s an interesting conclusion. Do you have a premise for it?

    • #52
  23. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    the doctrine of divine simplicity

    That phrase alone makes me crack up.

    • #53
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    . . .

    I don’t expect to convince you, given your Ricochet handle. I think that it is a major mistake to confuse divine revelation with human reason. Reason is manifestly insufficient.

    Right on. But why would you expect me to be hard to convince?

    I expect that it will be difficult to convince you that the “natural law” doctrine is an error, because you have adopted “Saint Augustine” as your Ricochet name, and he is associated quite strongly with natural law doctrine.

    He’s also associated with a very dark view of human sin, pessimism about our chances of knowing anything without G-d’s grace, and a high a view of the Word of G-d.

    I’ve discovered something in my Bible studies. When Scripture seems to be at odds with my reasoning, I generally find that the problem is me, and my erroneous reasoning or erroneous premises. I haven’t thought about everything, but I’ve seen this happen often enough that I now have more confidence in Scripture than in myself.

    Right on, right on!

    It is a good thing that we end up with agreement.

    Right on!

    I find the “natural law” doctrine to be a bad idea because it seems to assume that a proper moral code can be derived from pure reason, . . . .

    It does not so assume.  Well, not necessarily so.  Some versions do. Why not take a look at the chapters on ethics in my book on Augustine and see if that’s a good characterization?

    (Ok, ok. I know why. The book’s too expensive! Fair enough.)

    • #54
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    J Climacus (View Comment):
    The moral code of the East is not recognizably good? Not at all? They have families in the East, are taught to tell the truth and respect their parents, to work hard and make something of yourself. Those seem to be good things. Asian-Americans are the least criminal demographic in the United States. They must be doing something right, if not everything right.

    In this case I tend to agree with you, at least regarding Buddhism. The 16 Bodhisattva Precepts sound much like the Ten Commandments, except they don’t say “Thou Shalt Not” and practitioners “vow” to follow them. To non-religious Westerners, this is a big deal.

    There’s some great stuff in Confucius.

    • #55
  26. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    the doctrine of divine simplicity

    That phrase alone makes me crack up.

    When I first found out they weren’t joking with that line of thought I busted a gut. Oh, the hubris! I asked for the supporting scripture. Where did He reveal that? God is not a Greek philosopher nor a slave to man’s reason.

    • #56
  27. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    the doctrine of divine simplicity

    That phrase alone makes me crack up.

    When I first found out they weren’t joking with that line of thought I busted a gut. Oh, the hubris! I asked for the supporting scripture. Where did He reveal that? God is not a Greek philosopher nor a slave to man’s reason.

    Are we all on the same page about what the word “simplicity” means in this context?

    • #57
  28. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    A post on the Jewish view of the Noahide laws would be interesting. I’m skeptical, as they appear to be part of an oral tradition, and not part of the Old Testament itself. It’s also not clear how people other than the Jews are supposed to know about these rules.

    Jerry, G-d gave the Noahide law to all of humanity, and they are accepted by all Jews as part of the oral tradition, except for one sect, the Karaites, who believed that only the Torah was authoritative. The oral tradition is held in the same esteem by most Jews as the Torah. There are actually people out there who consider themselves to be Noahides; you can look them up. If your own tradition doesn’t mention them, and you don’t research divine law-giving within Judaism, you probably won’t find them. They were issued in response to the state of the world before the Flood.

    • #58
  29. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    the doctrine of divine simplicity

    That phrase alone makes me crack up.

    When I first found out they weren’t joking with that line of thought I busted a gut. Oh, the hubris! I asked for the supporting scripture. Where did He reveal that? God is not a Greek philosopher nor a slave to man’s reason.

    Are we all on the same page about what the word “simplicity” means in this context?

    I assume you mean something along these lines (from Catholic Exchange):

    God is the unique simple Being because He is one in His essence and in all His perfections. When St. Thomas speaks of God’s simplicity, he presents it as the absence of all that is composite. In God there are not quantitative parts as there are in us who are composed of body and soul. God is simple because in Him there is no matter; He is pure spirit. Angels are also pure spirits; but angels are composite beings because their essence is like ours, distinct from their existence. The angelic essence does not exist by itself but has only the capacity to exist; in fact, no angel, as likewise no man, can exist if God does not call him to life. In God, on the contrary, there is supreme simplicity, infinitely superior to that of the angels: in Him essence and existence are identical. His essence exists of itself; He is the eternally subsistent Being.

    Which is the sound of a prat too proud to say that God is a mystery far beyond man’s comprehension and if you are reading me rather than His word I have successfully lured you away from the truth and into buying expensive books when Bibles can be had for free. 

    I enjoy Thomas, and I don’t doubt his piety and he makes some fine points and brings his opponent’s best arguments to the fore, but I never have mistaken him for being divinely inspired.

    • #59
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    the doctrine of divine simplicity

    That phrase alone makes me crack up.

    When I first found out they weren’t joking with that line of thought I busted a gut. Oh, the hubris! I asked for the supporting scripture. Where did He reveal that? God is not a Greek philosopher nor a slave to man’s reason.

    Are we all on the same page about what the word “simplicity” means in this context?

    I assume you mean something along these lines (from Catholic Exchange):

    God is the unique simple Being because He is one in His essence and in all His perfections. When St. Thomas speaks of God’s simplicity, he presents it as the absence of all that is composite. . . .

    Yes, that’s it.

    Which is the sound of a prat too proud to say that God is a mystery far beyond man’s comprehension . . . .

    You don’t think Aquinas does say that?

    I enjoy Thomas, . . . but I never have mistaken him for being divinely inspired.

    Well, that’s one thing you and he have in common.

    • #60
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