Post of the Week Created with Sketch. The T-shirt

 

“A woman does not have to be modest in order to be respected.”

This is a quote from a T-shirt worn by an otherwise scantily clad female model in a magazine.

While the medium to convey such a message is not ideal, the notion that one should automatically have another’s respect despite their lack of modesty is one to analyze and debate.

Respect is something that is earned. This can be determined based on dress because a person’s dress reflects oneself. For example, there was a student who dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt to interview with a top-level company. When the interviewer saw the student, the interviewer decided not to proceed, because the student hadn’t cared to dress for the part he had applied for.

However, the T-shirt uses the word “be modest” rather than “dress modestly” to be respected.

Being modest is shown through one’s attitude and actions. The T-shirt is not saying that it is time to end the idea of women needing to dress modestly in order to be respected. It is telling women that they are free to act immodestly without consequence because they deserve to be respected despite their lack of being modest. This idea is both untruthful and potentially damaging. If a man acted immodestly, he should receive the same treatment, and in terms of #MeToo, they have. If women want to be like men, they will need to act appropriately to earn the same respect as their male counterparts.

The T-shirt’s definition of modesty, based on the ideas that they are rejecting, is that women have to be timid creatures who should have no voice in the world. That is how one defines modesty if they look at immodest men who have a false ideal of women. Modesty is genderless and can be defined as being respectful of others, not shouting and screaming, acting demeaning, etc. As a result of this wrongful definition, women feel that they have the right to act like boors – acting crude, shamelessly unveiling their bodies for the world, and screaming instead of discussing – and still deserve to be respected. Women have become open books who have no self-worth unless their post hits ten thousand likes. No one deserves respect, and these methods are not how one earns respect.

People who are modest have a certain quality that separates them from everyone else. They tend to be dedicated to upholding a value system. This helps them earn the respect of others because it is easier to throw away the value system when it becomes arduous. A better quote for the T-shirt would be, “Respect yourself by being modest, and you will be respected.”

According to this T-shirt, modesty doesn’t matter anymore, that it’s archaic and we’ve got better things now. But the T-shirt is wrong. It’s not our values that need changing, but ourselves. Modesty is what we need to strive for, not to use excuses for our problems.

Read between the lines. What is our problem with modesty?

This answer is personal for each person, so I’m not going to make a sweeping generalization.

But I can respect anyone who thinks about it.

Published in Culture
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  1. Arahant Member

    Sage Wolkenfeld: It’s not our values that need changing, but ourselves.

    Always the truth that the left never sees. Start change at home, in your own head and with your own personality.

    • #1
    • August 9, 2020, at 9:29 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  2. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnellJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    “Respect is something that is earned.”

    I think I would take issue with that as a stand-alone statement. To me, everyone I meet is entitled to my respect… until they show by their actions that they are not entitled to it. Some people start very early to subtract for the respect in which I hold them, however, such as in your example.

    • #2
    • August 9, 2020, at 9:36 AM PDT
    • 8 likes
  3. Sage Wolkenfeld Member
    Sage Wolkenfeld

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    “Respect is something that is earned.”

    I think I would take issue with that as a stand-alone statement. To me, everyone I meet is entitled to my respect… until they show by their actions that they are not entitled to it. Some people start very early to subtract for the respect in which I hold them, however, such as in your example.

    I agree, but I would use a different term. Everyone is entitled to basic human decency, like common courtesy. I see respect as a tier above that.

    • #3
    • August 9, 2020, at 9:54 AM PDT
    • 10 likes
  4. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Good post.

    Part of this t-shirt reflects an idea raised in Douglas Murray’s recent book, The Madness of Crowds. He uses a horrid N Minaj video (“Anaconda”) as an example. The idea is that a woman can be as sexually provocative as she wants, and a man is absolutely prohibited from responding in any way. Murray describes it as a deranging demand, if I remember his analysis properly.

    It is a bizarre power game promoted by the feminists. I think that it’s actually a deliberate trap, to allow the woman to claim victimhood and therefore power. The woman acts like a pole-dancing stripper, and if the man looks, then he’s the sort of Neanderthal who “objectifies women.”

    It is rather surprising that anyone beyond middle school would accept such a childish game.

    We do see it in many other places, as you note — generally inappropriate clothing, tattoos, piercings, bizarre hair, odd lipstick color, and the like.

    • #4
    • August 9, 2020, at 11:26 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  5. Albert Arthur Lincoln

    Sage Wolkenfeld (View Comment):

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    “Respect is something that is earned.”

    I think I would take issue with that as a stand-alone statement. To me, everyone I meet is entitled to my respect… until they show by their actions that they are not entitled to it. Some people start very early to subtract for the respect in which I hold them, however, such as in your example.

    I agree, but I would use a different term. Everyone is entitled to basic human decency, like common courtesy. I see respect as a tier above that.

    I think there’s a difference between showing respect for someone and showing disrespect for someone. 

    • #5
    • August 9, 2020, at 11:53 AM PDT
    • Like
  6. Flicker Coolidge

    Sage Wolkenfeld: However, the T-shirt uses the word “be modest” rather than “dress modestly” to be respected.

    Isn’t it awesome how meaning can be turned upside down by subtle changes in just two words. And how few can catch the switch.

    • #6
    • August 9, 2020, at 1:19 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  7. Flicker Coolidge

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):
    “Respect is something that is earned.”

    Respect is not so much earned as granted, and lost.

    • #7
    • August 9, 2020, at 1:22 PM PDT
    • Like
  8. Hoyacon Member

    Merriam-Webster’s primary definition of “modest:”

    a: placing a moderate estimate on one’s abilities or worth

    b: neither bold nor self-assertive : tending toward diffidence

    That’s not what I see “modesty” as being about.

    • #8
    • August 9, 2020, at 1:50 PM PDT
    • Like
    • This comment has been edited.
  9. Stad Thatcher

    Sage Wolkenfeld:

    “A woman does not have to be modest in order to be respected.”

    This is a quote from a T-shirt worn by an otherwise scantily clad female model in a magazine.

    OTOH, it helps a lot . . .

    • #9
    • August 9, 2020, at 2:31 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  10. TBA Coolidge

    How about you get to decide what to wear and get to decide what I think? 

    • #10
    • August 9, 2020, at 4:49 PM PDT
    • 11 likes
  11. Jules PA Member

    Sage Wolkenfeld: According to this T-shirt, modesty doesn’t matter anymore, that it’s archaic and we’ve got better things now.

    Hmm. Personally, I think in most circumstances that is untrue. Except maybe in places where lack of modesty is highly valued, say in pole dancing, beach volleyball, and lingerie model. 

    Challenging the prevailing attitudes brings risk, so choosing context for selective immodesty is the best decision .

     

    • #11
    • August 9, 2020, at 7:07 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  12. Jules PA Member

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    The idea is that a woman can be as sexually provocative as she wants, and a man is absolutely prohibited from responding in any way. Murray describes it as a deranging demand, if I remember his analysis properly.

    She hopes to gain the power to spurn him? But, eventually no one will like her, because that perpetually provocative sexual demeanor is nearly universally considered uncivil behavior, by all decent people. 

    The ones interested aren’t looking for anything but that. Those not interested will instinctively run away. Either way, it is ultimately a fruitless strategy. 

    • #12
    • August 9, 2020, at 7:14 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  13. Jules PA Member

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    The idea is that a woman can be as sexually provocative as she wants, and a man is absolutely prohibited from responding in any way. Murray describes it as a deranging demand, if I remember his analysis properly.

    Probably in an earlier edition. Surely in 2020, merriam has updated the word modesty as with the word racism? 

    • #13
    • August 9, 2020, at 7:17 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  14. TBA Coolidge

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    The idea is that a woman can be as sexually provocative as she wants, and a man is absolutely prohibited from responding in any way. Murray describes it as a deranging demand, if I remember his analysis properly.

    She hopes to gain the power to spurn him? But, eventually no one will like her, because that perpetually provocative sexual demeanor is nearly universally considered uncivil behavior, by all decent people.

    The ones interested aren’t looking for anything but that. Those not interested will instinctively run away. Either way, it is ultimately a fruitless strategy.

    In earlier times we had words for women who promised sex but didn’t deliver and words for men who promised marriage and didn’t deliver. 

    Those times kinda sucked in a lot of regards, but just because we’ve removed a lot of the pressures that affected those kinds of behavior doesn’t magically turn the behavior into something admirable. 

    Shame isn’t any fun, but neither is trying to cope with shameless people. 

    • #14
    • August 10, 2020, at 12:40 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  15. Hoyacon Member

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    The idea is that a woman can be as sexually provocative as she wants, and a man is absolutely prohibited from responding in any way. Murray describes it as a deranging demand, if I remember his analysis properly.

    Probably in an earlier edition. Surely in 2020, merriam has updated the word modesty as with the word racism?

    Something went wrong as to the quoted portion.

    Those defs were from the online edition, but certainly subject to change.

     

    • #15
    • August 10, 2020, at 5:28 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  16. Stina Member

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Merriam-Webster’s primary definition of “modest:”

    a: placing a moderate estimate on one’s abilities or worth

    b: neither bold nor self-assertive : tending toward diffidence

    That’s not what I see “modesty” as being about.

    A woman dressing provocatively is trying to get a certain kind of attention.

    In Corinthians, Paul tells the women to not braid their hair or deck themselves in jewelry – because such things were usually means by which women called attention to their affluence and wealth.

    The 2nd definition is definitely about drawing attention. Modesty, ergo, is dressing in a manner that doesn’t draw attention to oneself or one’s assets. This is also why modesty also contains a bit of cultural flair to it. A fully burked out Muslim or the girls wearing overall dresses down to their ankles draw attention to themselves by being so ostentatious in their attire against cultural norms. Is that modest?

    • #16
    • August 10, 2020, at 7:08 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  17. Jules PA Member

    Stina (View Comment):
    A fully burked out Muslim or the girls wearing overall dresses down to their ankles draw attention to themselves by being so ostentatious in their attire against cultural norms. Is that modest?

    Yes, because you only see the fabric, not what is underneath. 

    The fact that this attire stands out in our Western culture is not immodest, just unfamiliar.

    I wear skirts and longish dresses, in no way related to burka-style. 

    Outside the norm? Yes.

    Immodest? No. 

    • #17
    • August 10, 2020, at 7:58 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  18. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk andJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Men have to be modestly dressed to be respected by anybody that matters.

    • #18
    • August 14, 2020, at 2:24 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  19. TBA Coolidge

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):

    Men have to be modestly dressed to be respected by anybody that matters.

    That’s an interesting point; in almost all circumstances men are supposed to show less skin than women. 

    • #19
    • August 14, 2020, at 5:47 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  20. Reese Member
    ReeseJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Congratulations on the @Lileks seal of approval. Discussed on the flagship podcast heard by dozens!

    • #20
    • August 15, 2020, at 10:32 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  21. Charlotte Member
    CharlotteJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Congrats on PotW!

    I thought this was a really interesting topic and was surprised it didn’t get much traction the first time around.

    • #21
    • August 15, 2020, at 12:03 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  22. Charlotte Member
    CharlotteJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    This thread reminds me of the great line about Clement Atlee.

    • #22
    • August 15, 2020, at 12:47 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  23. JosePluma Thatcher

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    • #23
    • August 15, 2020, at 1:15 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  24. Sage Wolkenfeld Member
    Sage Wolkenfeld

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    https://www.themarysue.com/sports-illustrated-2018-swimsuit-issue-women-in-control/

    This is a link to the picture. I do share it with a warning.

    • #24
    • August 15, 2020, at 7:15 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  25. iWe Reagan
    iWeJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Sage Wolkenfeld (View Comment):

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    https://www.themarysue.com/sports-illustrated-2018-swimsuit-issue-women-in-control/

    This is a link to the picture. I do share it with a warning.

    Oh, the picture is more than a little funny. Nobody would respect the tart in question as anything except for what her body and smile are advertising.

    • #25
    • August 16, 2020, at 2:53 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  26. Sage Wolkenfeld Member
    Sage Wolkenfeld

     

    Reese (View Comment):

    Congratulations on the @Lileks seal of approval. Discussed on the flagship podcast heard by dozens!

    Thank you!

    • #26
    • August 16, 2020, at 5:29 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  27. JosePluma Thatcher

    Sage Wolkenfeld (View Comment):

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    https://www.themarysue.com/sports-illustrated-2018-swimsuit-issue-women-in-control/

    This is a link to the picture. I do share it with a warning.

    Ugh. No thanks.

    I love the name of that website. They do know what a Mary Sue is, don’t they?

    • #27
    • August 17, 2020, at 12:00 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  28. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk andJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    Sage Wolkenfeld (View Comment):

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    https://www.themarysue.com/sports-illustrated-2018-swimsuit-issue-women-in-control/

    This is a link to the picture. I do share it with a warning.

    Ugh. No thanks.

    I love the name of that website. They do know what a Mary Sue is, don’t they?

    Yes they do. They chose the name ironically, to take back the label as a badge of honour.

    • #28
    • August 17, 2020, at 12:46 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  29. TBA Coolidge

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    Sage Wolkenfeld (View Comment):

    JosePluma (View Comment):

    I’ll need to see the picture before I can pass judgement.

    https://www.themarysue.com/sports-illustrated-2018-swimsuit-issue-women-in-control/

    This is a link to the picture. I do share it with a warning.

    Ugh. No thanks.

    I love the name of that website. They do know what a Mary Sue is, don’t they?

    Yes they do. They chose the name ironically, to take back the label as a badge of honour.

    Does the bravery of the Resistance know no bounds? 

    • #29
    • August 18, 2020, at 12:18 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  30. Henry Castaigne Member

    TBA (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):

    Men have to be modestly dressed to be respected by anybody that matters.

    That’s an interesting point; in almost all circumstances men are supposed to show less skin than women.

    Men have much less power to control people with their sexuality. 

    • #30
    • August 18, 2020, at 1:02 AM PDT
    • 3 likes