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Commiserating on Mortality
At 7 pm on Tuesday evenings (if we don’t get afternoon showers), some of the ladies in our neighborhood get together to visit. We are all seniors. 
Usually six to ten of us show up with our lawn chairs and preferred drinks, sit in one neighbor’s driveway six feet apart without masks, to talk about the news of the week. I’ve been avoiding the group for weeks; I’m not much of a social creature anyway and don’t especially like small talk, but they are very nice women. I’d like to believe that it makes sense to maintain a warm relationship with them, however limited.
Unfortunately, on my last visit a few weeks ago, the conversation inevitably turned to the coronavirus. Almost all of them do the mask/glove/sanitation/wipes routine to the extreme (in my opinion), no matter where they go. At the last gathering I attended, our voices became so loud that one of the husbands came out of his home to see if a brawl had broken out. I was the one guilty of causing the volume escalation; I was trying to explain my reasons for refusing to wear a mask everywhere, and suddenly everyone had to (loudly) express their alarm. (I did not say anyone should follow my lead.) I refused to be shouted down, and, well, it got noisy. One woman said her husband had a periodic bout with cancer, and she would never want to go somewhere and pick up the virus, exposing him to it. She was clearly insinuating that I was dooming my husband to certain death* since he has a lung condition (I know she was trying to make me feel guilty since I said that my husband supported my decisions and clearly did not feel I was endangering his life, and she wouldn’t look me in the eye.) When it was time to go home, we all parted with friendly words, but the tension was still in the air.
I’m thinking of attending the group again this evening. A part of me wants to see if I can behave myself and not antagonize them. Another part of me acknowledges my real reluctance about going: being surrounded by frightened people who feel like victims.
All my life I’ve had a very hard time being empathic with people who (I believe) are irrationally feeling victimized or frightened. Certainly, there are reasons to be concerned with the coronavirus, but the fear in this group is palpable. I realize that it probably triggers my own fears, carefully hidden and restrained. Nevertheless, given that I want to maintain a good relationship with all of them (because they are fine women and neighbors), I want simply to be able to be present to their fear, be a supportive and caring force, and accept the inevitable conversation about the virus.
Still, if you hear screaming women across the miles, you’ll know where it’s coming from.
(If it doesn’t rain and I follow through on visiting, I’ll let you know how it goes.)
*Lately I’ve been wearing a mask when I go out since I realize how frightened people are by those who don’t wear them.
Published in Culture
Wonderful. I think G-d was trying to guide Cain re Abel, too. Cain wouldn’t go there.
“When it was time to go home, we all parted with friendly words, but the tension was still in the air.“
That was the way things were in my men’s book club in Charleston between 2008 and 2012. It was a group of about 12 men who were enormously successful in life but there were only 2 or 3 quasi conservatives and then there was me. The attitude of the self righteous fabulously wealthy liberals chaffed me so much that I could not resist comments such that sending your kids to public schools was tantamount to child abuse and that the policies of Obama were indistinguishable from those of someone who was actively trying to destroy America. I eventually got canceled.
It is usually better to be nice than to be right. We all have to draw that line and choose who we want to associate with.
“When it was time to go home, we all parted with friendly words, but the tension was still in the air.“
That was the way things were in my men’s book club in Charleston between 2008 and 2012. It was a group of about 12 men who were enormously successful in life but there were only 2 or 3 quasi conservatives and then there was me. The attitude of the self righteous fabulously wealthy liberals chaffed me so much that I could not resist comments such that sending your kids to public schools was tantamount to child abuse and that the policies of Obama were indistinguishable from those of someone who was actively trying to destroy America. I eventually got canceled.
It is usually better to be nice than to be right. We all have to draw that line and choose who we want to associate with.
This last paragraph. What hills are we willing to die on?
If someone will only be your friend if you salute their politics, they aren’t your friends. If they can’t defend their politics, they need to think harder about that.
Yes, but pain is always involved.
There is a lot of anxiety and fear out there. Even in the best of circumstances sometimes metaphorical, as well as physical distance can be your friend. I would suggest talking about something that every one can agree on, such as religion, rather than an invisible threat, or politics.
Perhaps chairs placed 12 feet apart, and a metal detector at one end of the driveway would help.
In all seriousness you all have each other when you reach a certain age, and you need each other.
From what you describe in your group I would encourage them to talk about their fears and what they think makes them safest. After that I would ask, if you assume that COVID-19 will be around the rest of your life without some vaccine that would confer immunity, what thing you would like to do in your life that it would make it worth risking getting sick? Once they identify that, I would ask, is that the only thing? and solicit additional things they would risk their health to do. I think that would be instructive and would help them focus on cost-benefit thinking. That might open them to understanding more of the data to actually assess their personal risk. And maybe they would understand that there are serious people out their who are assessing their risk much lower than they are.
Susan, could you do some of these things if you attend that gathering? 1. Be armed with a lot of other subjects to introduce to change the subject. 2. Be armed with a long list of familiar, bankrupt businesses and display great sadness at the starving unemployed. 3. Explain how sad or depressed you are about covid effects and wonder if they would help distract you.
What an amazing group all of you are!! You have worked so hard for me to solve this “problem” with all these women who are suffering in fear. I am deeply touched.
Yet over the last hour I’ve found myself resisting the idea of taking action. At first I was perplexed by my reaction: like many of you, I’m a problem solver. I’m skilled at working with conflict situations. Why would I resist helping these women? And I think I have the answers, as strange as it may seem.
First, I didn’t set out to solve their problem. My goal was to see if I could simply be with them, and let them simply interact as they chose. Although one part of me is tempted to rescue them, I could actually end up alienating them, for a number of reasons, in my attempt to end their suffering. Second, they didn’t ask for my help. I cannot tell you the number of times I’ve wanted to offer unsolicited advice in one form or another in my life; the difficulty is that it can make the receiver feel condescended to. In addition, the part that has actually blown me away, is the sense that they may be happy in their suffering. They may be satisfied with just where they are, and are doing just fine (from their perspective). There’s only one person who has a problem here, and it’s me. Although they find things to laugh about during our time together, they don’t want to be fixed. Unless I can instantly make the virus go away, I should leave them alone (is the sense I get).
After tonight I realize that I can be with them for these Tuesday night visits and be warm and friendly. But I don’t really enjoy it. My dislike for small talk hasn’t changed. I probably sound like a snob, but that’s how I feel. So I probably won’t spend time with them in that setting. I will continue to be cordial, see them at other neighborhood celebrations, but my time is precious to me. There’s little point in attending if I don’t enjoy it or don’t contribute.
I don’t mind getting any feedback from any of you. I also would very much appreciate your commenting on my theory that they are “enjoying their suffering.” Again, I can’t thank you enough for weighing in, and any other thoughts you have regarding my situation, or your sharing your experiences being with folks like my neighbors.
Oh, it is now. IT IS NOW!!!!!
:)
I’m guessing free tablets of HCQ will not appease this group?
Suzy,
It is very difficult to deal with pure paranoia. Especially when both the government and the media are constantly fanning the flames. For some to admit that their answers might be wrong they would be first forced to admit that they have just been followers for years doing whatever the MSM told them to do. They may have long ago lost the ability to really think for themselves.
Regards,
Jim
Susan, I will share this video with you if you promise to not share it with your wonderful warm and open minded neighbors as it might end any possibility of you ever again sitting six feet away from them, and helping them plan their husband’s inevitable COVID funerals.
They might be lovely nice women, but they also sound like victims. Only right now, the biggest “victims of the COVID virus” have worn all the skin off their hands from the continual hand sanitizing, and their masks are so tightly wound around their heads that whenever they realize there are still human beings who can relax and enjoy life, they want to get right up in that person’s aura and challenge that person in the sort of way that would make Freddy Krueger feel like he’d been a wimp all those nightmare-ish years on Elm Street. (“Now I’m playing with power! Neighbor or not, Susan Quinn, You will wear your mask as tightly as I am wearing mine or you might be missing your COVID infected face!”)
Anyway, this video by JP was done on March 11th, so the statistics are not right for today. But the humor should still tickle the funny bone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPpzHYKpndk
My mother is wrestling with this (and other issues) with the ladies in her book club. (They are also all big fans of… wait for it… euthanasia!?😱). None of them understand why schools need to reopen. It’s a kind of willful ignorance. I saw an article that said child abuse cases are not being reported because teachers are usually the ones to notice.
My mother keeps on zooming with them, hoping certain subjects won’t arise.
For me, I don’t understand the people who think that a little bit of commercial hand sanitizer and a piece of cloth (of questionable sterility) is what protects us all from certain death. It seems totally unscientific and quackish to me.
Of course I have found that people’s common sense in this matter is in inverse proportion to their education level. The more quackish superstitions, the more masters degrees.
Why is that? Is our current educational experience something that drums common sense out of people? Or what?
Somewhere along the line, students must be getting indoctrinated that truth only comes about through a study or many studies and scientific reports and that you should not trust your own experience or your own observations.
The people who have Master’s degrees and PhD’s and who retain their ability to be creative and trust their own observations are amazing people and make wonderful friends. But I find people with lots of education who live according to the quackish superstitions are insufferable.
Outside of STEM fields, higher education is a test of tolerance for large amounts of unmitigated horsefeathers and other nonsense. It becomes a test. If you can sit through the classes and write the papers, you probably will believe anything.
My husband is in a STEM field and works with actuarial statistics (@Richard Easton) and all his colleagues are credulous about this. We’re going to the US to see my family next week and they all want him to quarantine himself when he gets back etc (French think Americans are dying like flies in the streets —- I get this all the time from literally everyone). He lunched with a colleague in a restaurant and the guy took off his mask to eat (?) and put the mask on to chat after 🤣 He was very virtuous about it, and this is someone who is number literate. *MORE people died in the drought in 2003 in one month than during 4 months of Covid.*
It’s not restricted to humanities.
The thing that has surprised me the most about this whole experience is how easily frightened Americans are. I don’t understand it, and I respect my country less. I have friends who wear masks on bikes in 105 degree heat. That doesn’t impact me, so bless ‘em. I just think they’re gonna die of heatstroke, and I don’t understand their fear—or their ability to analyze information—but it is what it is, I guess. Hang with your husband. He’s more interesting anyway!
@tocqueville, I’m so surprised at the number of people on this OP are reporting malfunctioning (!) groups that seemed to be relatively sane at one point. My own experience on this street is that degrees don’t seem to matter; delusion knows no barriers!
Wearing a mask is the simplest thing in the world out of respect for others. If I had a family member with a compromised lung condition, I would do it. This is not the flu season, but a worldwide highly contagious pandemic that isn’t dissipating with the Florida sun like they said it might. Florida is a hotspot and your area especially. The panhandle cases continue to climb. I am keeping track of my county every couple days. It’s not going down. My husband’s dimwit co-worker’s grandfather was just found to have it and is very sick, the grandmother is in the hospital with double pneumonia, and now the co-worker has it and is in quarantine. He laughed about it and never wore a mask, and now he has it. He’s also responsible for a daughter – they all live together. He put my husband and his other co-workers in jeopardy.
If you have fun and enjoy your neighborly visits, I’d say go, but if you have other motives, maybe stay home. Why add to your own and others anxiety – there’s enough of that.
Luckily (?) for me, when it comes to COVID, I don’t know. I really don’t. If a shop wants me to wear a mask, I’ll wear it. But let’s face it; the masks aren’t getting washed. They aren’t even clean, let alone sanitized. It’s a piece of cloth, and is unlikely to do anything other than ease the anxieties of others while making me too uncomfortable to do anything other than grab what I needed and get out. No browsing. No impulse shopping—and impulse shopping used to fill half my cart at the supermarket. Surely shops all over the country are losing money hand over fist because of this?
Our little jewel of a General Store, deliberately created to be a gathering point for the community, is now marred by sheets of plexiglass, warning signs and floor-arrows; naturally, you can’t sit in the window seat and sip your coffee, or hang out and watch the brick oven pizzas and wonderful breads get baked.
Let’s say there’s a vaccine in the next six months. What happens when another virus comes along, with the potential (unknown at first) for similar lethality? The next H1N1, or Hong Kong Flu or whatever? Do we do this again? Do we essentially accept that this is permanent?
I like these ideas a lot, Rodin!
I’m curious @GrannyDude: can you think of any group that would be willing to participate in this kind of rational discussion. It’s a sensible, rational approach, but I’m at a loss to think of anyone who would be open to it.
I totally get what you’re saying @susanquinn when pushing against what seem to me to be pretty reasonable questions from @rodin. However, don’t you think that at some point these people figure out for themselves that they are living a flattened life?
I have a friend whom I love dearly, so she is not like these acquaintances of yours. Even so, we share very few of the same political opinions. We definitely don’t see Covid in the same way. She thinks I’m absolutely bonkers per my aversion to masks. (She could also care less about statues being burned or pulled down because she doesn’t care one whit about history. I am a history professor, soooo….)
BUT when a local park she loves closed down, and people could no longer go hang out there in the great outdoors, even when the park rangers had previously put in place a timed reservation system to make sure that social distancing was definitely happening, she saw nothing good coming out of it. Why? She likes parks. It’s that simple. Plus… it was all so very stupid and arbitrary to her. The thing that is taken away has to matter to the person for that person to think outside their knee-jerk fears. That’s all that Rodin is looking for here: the thing that really matters to these people. Maybe the answer is absolute security, in which case, I’m not sure how they ever go outside, but then you know what it is that makes people tick and can be kinder about dealing with them. (I just let it go with my own friend.)
@LoisLane you are correct! And at some point maybe they will get so tired of the situation that they may be open to a broader perspective. A few have told me that they will not stop wearing masks at least until there’s a vaccine. What they don’t realize is how long it will actually take to develop the vaccine, and then there is the challenge of distribution, who will get it first or who will absolutely not take at least the first ones because they assume those will be risky.
BTW, I think we all know what makes people tick! It’s just that I’ve always wanted to know why people think or do the things they do, even before I became a consultant. I used to drive my husband crazy when we disagreed on ideas and I would ask him why he thought the way he did! Sometimes he’d thought it out, but other times he responded, “Just because!” Then I dove deeper into human nature, and I’m still baffled by a lot of it, but we are who we are!
My wife is on the church committee that decides when the church resumes in-person activities, especially worship. She was surprised at last night’s meeting how many members are completely terrified of this virus. Which means the church has abandoned its plan to resume in-person worship in August.
The lack of in-person contact unfortunately reinforces the frightened-ness of people. Discussions like the one @susanquinn had are even worse when conducted on-line. And the media and many government officials seem to have an agenda of increasing fear (the media have the excuse that fear sells clicks). Without talking to actual people in situations in which nuances, fears, concerns, and solutions can be exchanged in real time with real people, many people succumb to the fears induced by the media and the on-line commenters.
Not only that, but you can probably tie their lies and exaggerations ultimately to making Donald Trump look bad. Good grief.
Everything is different since Trump won the election. That’s where I would say it started. My mom said, when I sent her @Susan Quinn’s article: “these ladies don’t acknowledge facts that don’t fit their narrative,” in this case, the actual mortality rates.
I am struggling with this myself. The truth is that so much intimacy depends on common values: whether we can laugh at the same things, what we take seriously…
I have two Leftist friends who immediately come to mind. I care about them both a lot; I’ve known one for 20 years. I refuse to discuss politics with them, because I know it won’t end well. (We’ve tried.) I share many values with both of them, but some of my most important values we don’t share. Many of my values are embedded in politics. There is a barrier. I can feel it every time I talk to either of them. It’s a tension out of what is not spoken. You can’t have large barriers and intimacy.