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The Pivotal Flynn (Part 1 of 3)
It’s been a while since my last two cents, so today’s offering on the subject of Flynn will be three for the price of one. Part 2 and Part 3 here.
General Michael Flynn always struck me as less risk-averse than some officers at his level. Someone who was more interested in results in the field, and throwing out or rewriting the book to get them if need be, than he was in stroking egos to get more stars and bars or keep those he already had. His case is not a mere pivot from one court plea to another. Recent events, articles, and Ricochet posts illustrate how pivotal he was to the Trump administration and the kind of accountability I want in my country’s national government.
“Find. Fix. Finish. Exploit. Analyze. Disseminate” described Flynn’s impact while in the military thus:
Michael Flynn midwifed that template. He coached and nurtured it through its first steps; he taught our forces how to use it as we crawled, then walked then ran through that paradigm in defense of this country.
Every American is safer today because of Michael Flynn. I’ve got no real affection for general officers, but Flynn’s contributions to national security were exceptional.
Among all differences, this one right here most notably separates Michael Flynn’s case from all other Trump-affiliated targets. It also makes Judge Sullivan’s May 13 failure to dismiss a case that never should have been brought before the court a travesty due to the government’s malfeasance and the duress under which Flynn’s original guilty plea was entered. (More in part 2 on “Flynn lied.”)
The removal of Flynn as National Security Advisor was momentous for various reasons. Mollie Hemingway’s article last week highlighted very effectively what happened before and since, some of which possibly could have been averted or diffused by his presence and influence:
Not only was information on Russia not fully shared with the incoming Trump team, as Obama directs, the leaks and ambushes made the transition chaotic, scared quality individuals away from working in the administration, made effective governance almost impossible, and materially damaged national security.
…This stunning operation was not just a typical battle between political foes, nor merely an example of media bias against political enemies. Instead, this entire operation was a deliberate and direct attack on the foundation of American governance.
Hugh Hewitt recently defined #Obamagate as “The intentional interference w/ the peaceful, seamless, cooperative transition of power between presidential administrations. It may not be criminal but it is certainly destructive of the Republic’s greatest political tradition. Not seen in any way since 1861.”
Yes, and I would like to see more exploration of this. My impression is that Flynn’s removal was related to assertions that he “misled” Pence, leading to firing by Trump. This chapter in the Flynn saga seems underreported to me–as opposed to his FBI difficulties.
Edit: I may be premature here since there are two parts to go, one of which I’ve just started to read.
How exactly did he lie to (or mislead) Pence. What did he say? Was it nothing more than saying “But I didn’t discuss sanctions” with Kislyak, and then later pleading guilty to lying about it?
Questions that should be answered.
If that’s the definition, we need to find a bigger term for what we’re seeing today.
Alright. Without any direct knowledge of what Flynn said or how it varied from the transcript, if the FBI told Pence that they were recommending Flynn be charged with lying to them, what else could Pence realistically do? Stand behind him while the press turns every press conference into a pre-trial hearing? It would have been one more nightmare.
I have softened my position. Heads on pikes will no longer be required. The same heads bouncing down the steps of the atrium in the J. Edgar Hoover Building will do just fine.
That may be the case, but the admittedly suspect reporting indicates that Flynn misled Pence directly, not that Pence was influenced by the FBI investigation. I’m not saying that one should necessarily buy this, but it’s an aspect of the whole episode that I don’t think has been fully explored.
How would Pence “know” that the lie was a lie?
I don’t know. Isn’t that on Pence? At this point, I don’t think we know whether Pence had a separate conversation with Flynn or not. That’s why I said we need more info. And let’s not forget that Trump presumably signed off on this.
The point is that Pence had to either have seen the transcript, listened to the intercept, or both. Unless he was wandering around the DOJ opening drawers at random someone brought that to him or at least described the lie sufficiently to convince him.
Should we assume that Pence did not have an independent conversation with Flynn?
There was whatever conversation in which the “lie” occurred. Did he talk to him after that? I have no idea. It doesn’t matter. At some point Pence discovered the discrepancy. My uestion remains: how did that happen?
Here’s a brief article that matches my recollection of Pence interviews saying he’d spoken with Flynn regarding the call with Kislyak. I remember thinking Pence’s main concern seemed to be his own integrity being called into question over something he said he’d heard from Flynn.
The political climate at that time factors heavily into what happened to Flynn. First there’s the press. I doubt even the relentless COVID-19 news coverage weeks ago was as intense or longlasting as the effort to hang Russia collusion around the administration’s neck in general and Flynn’s in particular. Mollie Hemingway’s linked article in my post has good basic description of the leaking and Logan Act angle.
Then there’s the fact that most of the administration at that time was politically very green. I remember reading Flynn was meeting himself coming and going, including having FBI underfoot trying to get everyone’s clearance accesses set up so they could function around same time as Strok/Pientka’s visit. Certainly could explain why he may have at least initially felt no alarm at impromptu meeting with 2 FBI agents he considered fellow intelligence in for routine verification of something that popped up in foreign call.
The Barr/Jensen review of Flynn’s case documents leaves no doubt Flynn was being set up for prosecution or removal (turns out both), and that he was in the clear until the internal White House disconnect over the Kisliyak call which some Obama official had leaked to the press.
Flynn may not have remembered particulars of all calls, but I imagine he knew he had not overstepped the mark in any of them regarding discussing US sanctions, told the White House so and voila: instant conspiracy. It would have been so easy for Pence to smooth things over…he does it literally all the time. What GOP assistance there was fighting the collusion juggernaut was next door to useless. Flynn lost all he’d worked for, including his reputation, and Americans lost our best chance at real intelligence reform.
That’s a lot but I think there’s even more we lost. Consider how much diversion of the President’s attention and effort has resulted possibly as a result of Flynn not being in the post the President wanted.
Now, of course, much noise is being made that the President was too slow acting on the virus. But Flynn was the one person who might have made a difference in our knowledge of how to deal with China and intelligence gathering and analysis. Russia could be handled in his spare time.
Yes. So much focus has been on Flynn himself past 3+ yrs (w/ good reason) that it’s been only past weeks/months that I’ve realized Americans lost much as well. None of the successive NSAs were anywhere near as good a fit for Trump. Flynn had authority the likes of J. Edgar and perhaps exceeding even him with a superior core mission/focus (and family) to hopefully ground him enough to avoid pursuing Kissinger-esque visions of the world. Epstein & associate-level corruption and beyond had a chance of being addressed. Whatever else he may be, I feel Flynn is 100% on the side of the America I love.
My guess is the FBI told Pence Flynn lied to him. Back then, people used to trust the FBI, and Pence was likely no exception.
If you talk to Pence now, he’ll probably say (with hindsight) it was the FBI who lied to him . . .
One one radio show yesterday, the host said every election now seems critical to preserving America. This wasn’t true until maybe 2000. While we disagreed with ideas, we never felt like we would lose the country. In fact, we may have ignored the dangerous omens because we thought the country was indestructible. That isn’t true anymore. I am tired of fearing the loss of our great country. We never win. We just have the equivalent of a temporary restraining order on the left. The left never tires, never quits in the pursuit of goals.
Flynn was fired for lying to Pence, which required Trump’s approval.
There are two distinct phases to the Flynn persecution.
In phase one, Comey, the intelligence community and the Obama team wanted to ensure Flynn was not a part of the Trump Administration. Obama warned Trump against hiring Flynn and the intelligence community was worried because he knew them inside out and was going to push substantial reforms. And Susan Rice testified she was upset that Flynn thought China, not Russia, was the main enemy. That mission was accomplished when Trump fired Flynn and the intelligence community had no further interest in the matter. Along with the interviewing agents, both Comey and McCabe testified to Congress that they did not think Flynn was lying in the interview.
The second phase started when the Mueller team arrived on the scene (when referring to Mueller, I really mean Andrew Weissman). They saw prosecuting Flynn as a lever to getting him to flip on Trump, the guy they really wanted. When Flynn refused to do so, they figured the second-best alternative was to go after him in order to aid the media narrative being created that there was real substance to this Russia collusion thing. It was just more fuel to keep that fire going as long as possible in order to help the Democrats in the 2018 mid-terms. The media was happy to play along.
Unfortunately we don’t even have the original notes of the FBI interview with Flynn, nor a transcript of his call with Kisylak. The Mueller reports summarizes the sanctions discussion as follows, “With respect to sanctions, Flynn requested that Russia not escalate the situation, not get into a ‘tit for tat’, and only respond to the sanctions in a reciprocal manner.” Pence said Flynn told him he did not discuss sanctions.
Stad: “My guess is the FBI told Pence Flynn lied to him. Back then, people used to trust the FBI, and Pence was likely no exception.”
That has always been my understanding as well. Pence has not always the been the most stalwart of Trump supporters with his finger in air far too often to see which way the political wind is blowing. Pence, before shooting off his mouth should have gotten to the bottom of this. That Pence did not know that Flynn was being set up is on Pence, not Flynn. If you remember, the FBI and CNN had put out the story that Flynn was subversively representing Turkey, which was a total crock but Pence apparently bought it hook, line and sinker.
What is the error in the story that Flynn was representing Turkey when he wrote the op-ed recommending the US extradite Erdogan’s enemy?
I’m not a lawyer but somewhere in my recollection there seems to be a seed that says a conspiracy can constitute a crime notwithstanding the existence within the conspiracy of specific crimes. There was obviously a conspiracy within the Obama White House that brought in DoJ/FBI and Intelligence components to make sure General Flynn did not serve the Trump Administration in any intelligence capacity. Leaking classified material was a specific crime committed in this conspiracy even though who did the leaking might not be provable. I think there is enough for numerous indictments. And for Obama to be named complicit.
Whether true or not, was Flynn being investigated for a crime? Was he being investigated for not registering as an agent of Turkey? If not, the story was unfounded.
Regarding Flynn’s resignation here are the relevant parts from the Mueller Report:
January 26
Acting AG Yates contacts WH General Counsel McGahn to discuss Flynn and possible lying [to Pence, not the FBI].
McGahn reports Yates conversation to Trump who directs him to look into the matter.
WH Chief of Staff Priebus “recalls that the President was angry with Flynn in light of what Yates had told the White House and said, ‘not again, this guy, this stuff‘”.
February 6
Flynn and Trump talk. According to Flynn, “President was upset” with him.
February 13
Flynn resigns. Trump, “We’ll give you a good recommendation. You’re a good guy. We’ll take care of you.”
February 14
Trump has lunch with Chris Christie. Tells Christie, “Now that we fired Flynn, the Russia thing is over“. Christie disagrees.
One other piece of background that I discovered reading the recently released transcript of Susan Rice’s Intelligence Committee testimony:
Rice testified that the head of the National Security Council transition team for Trump, Marshall Billingslea, had talked with her about being disturbed about the frequency of contacts between Ambassador Kisylak and Flynn, wanted more background on Kisylak because “he seemed to want to use it to persuade General Flynn that perhaps he should scale back the contacts.”
Billingslea started his career as an aide to Senator Helms, was at DoD during the Bush administration where he was heavily involved in the war on terror. During the Trump Administration he has been Asst Secretary for Terrorist Financing at the Treasury Dept., is now Special Presidential Envoy for Arms Control and last week the White House nominated him to be Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs.
That is what I would expect Flynn or any other reasonable person to say. It isn’t really a discussion. It certainly isn’t an effort to subvert the foreign policy of the United States.
I agree. I thought it striking that the Mueller report, which worked hard to cast everything Trump in the worst possible light, could do no better than this in its summary.
At some point soon, it would be nice if Pence came forward and helped explain this whole cluster mess. As others have said, Flynn was fired by Trump ostensibly out of a need to have his Vice President’s back. Why would Trump feel that Flynn, his most serious National security guy, had done something so egregious that it warranted firing? Everything I am seeing here is supposition with a touch of wishful thinking. Let’s have some real deal facts.
Flynn took it in the tush in this ugly and malicious episode. But it seems he’s not yet ready for his angel wings either…maybe.
I agree. It looks as if Flynn perhaps realized that the outgoing administration was taking actions designed to aggravate the new administration’s relations with Russia and his reaction in the call with Kislyak was ‘just cool it’ maybe comparable to Obama’s famous ‘after the election I’ll have more flexibility’.
So Yates was shocked to find a movement underway within the White House using the FBI to facilitate undermining Flynn without her even being aware of it. But by 3 weeks later she was ready to join in that movement even though she was now part of the Trump Administration. Maybe it’s a good thing Trump fired her when he did.