What Does One Do When the Pope Is Woke?

 

One of the more bizarre (and potentially very destructive) events of the Francis pontificate will take place October 6-27 in Rome. It is a Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon Region, entitled Amazonia: New Paths for the Church and for an Integral Ecology. The lead-up to this synod consisted of talk about the lack of priests in the Pan-Amazon region and that, without priests, the Sacraments were not available on a regular basis. This is a serious concern for a Church given the mission by Jesus Christ to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).

A story like this, wherein the Institute of the Consolata for Foreign Missions – a Catholic mission, mind you – has had priests and laypeople working among the Yanomamis in Brazil but have failed to baptize one single soul, gives a face to this serious concern.

One might think that a Jesuit pope would look to the Society of Jesus to find a good missionary priest or two cut from the mold of St. Francis Xavier or Matteo Ricci or St. Isaac Jogues or St. Jean de Brebeuf to go to the Amazon region and preach the Gospel. Or one might think that this special gathering of bishops in Rome to (allegedly) deal with a priest shortage might be about evangelization and an increase in missionary activity.

But no.

With the first woke pope, we get a synod on New Age mumbo-jumbo. To define the mission of this synod, the Church has issued a laborious Instrumentum Laboris (IL). This working document focuses more on integral ecology (a vacuous term used 22 times in the text) than Jesus Christ or evangelization (21 and 19 mentions, respectively).

It really is an odd document to be issued from the Vatican. It is almost as if the case of the Institute of the Consolata for Foreign Missions is the model for evangelization that Francis and his sycophants want. Mind you, this was written by so-called theologians and priests – with the approval of bishops – and all endorsed by the pope. The document has not only been called heretical and apostasy, it has also been labeled as having a demonic tone.

Cardinal Raymond Burke and Bishop Athanasius Schneider are so concerned that they have jointly issued a document calling for a crusade of prayer and fasting to implore God that error and heresy do not pervert the Synod. In the document, they list six principal errors that are pervasive in the IL:

  1. Implicit pantheism.
  2. Pagan superstitions as sources of Divine Revelation and alternative pathways for salvation.
  3. Intercultural dialogue instead of evangelization.
  4. An erroneous conception of sacramental ordination, postulating worship ministers of either sex to perform even shamanic rituals.
  5. An “integral ecology” that downgrades human dignity.
  6. A tribal collectivism that undermines personal uniqueness and freedom.

Suffice to say that there is not much talk of the salvation of souls – which, apart from worshiping God, is the primary mission of the Church. The IL is mostly climate-change hogwash, New Age dumb-jumbo, and neo-Marxist drivel. Unsurprisingly, the working document and lead-up to the synod has been dominated by the Germans. For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany. They are losing their beloved Kirchensteuer (a church tax that is imposed on members of churches) because the faithful have lost their faith and no longer produce vocations or Catholics.

So what do the leaders of the German Church want to do? They double-down on stupid, embrace the world, and push for more progressive ideas like eliminating the rule of celibacy in the Latin-Rite Church, approving women deacons and priests, and promoting blessings for sodomitical unions – the same things many of their Protestant brethren have tried and also failed at.

It isn’t only the crazy Germans who will be at the synod but also non-Catholics like Jeffrey Sachs and Ban Ki Moon. It is a wonder that Greta Thunberg and Bernie “let’s promote abortion in the Third World to combat climate change” Sanders haven’t been invited to participate (perhaps the pope doesn’t want to be out-woked).

This is the long game that Jorge Mario Bergoglio has been playing. We faithful Catholics have been like the proverbial frog in the pot of water. We have been fed so much drivel from this man (Laudato Si, Amoris Laetitia) and have had to put up with the never-ending promotion of heretical and pro-sodomite priests that we have almost become numb to the confusion and weaponized ambiguity that spills forth from the Vatican.

As Burke and Schneider write in answer to the title of my post:

The theological errors and heresies, implicit and explicit in the Instrumentum Laboris of the imminent Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon, are an alarming manifestation of the confusion, error and division which beset the Church in our day. No one can excuse himself from being informed about the gravity of the situation and from taking appropriate action for love of Christ and of His life with us in the Church. Above all, all the members of Christ’s Mystical Body, before such a threat to her integrity, must pray and fast for the eternal good of her members who risk being scandalized, that is led into confusion, error and division by this text for the Synod of Bishops. Moreover, every Catholic, as a true soldier of Christ, is called to safeguard and promote the truths of the faith and the discipline by which those truths are honored in practice, lest the solemn assembly of the Bishops in Synod betray the mission of the Synod, which is “to assist the Roman Pontiff with their counsel in the preservation and growth of faith and morals and in the observance and strengthening of ecclesiastical discipline” (can. 342).

[snip]

May God, through the intercession of the many truly Catholic missionaries who evangelized the indigenous American people, among whom are Saint Turibius of Mogrovejo and Saint José de Anchieta, and through the intercession of the saints whom indigenous American people have given to the Church, among whom are Saint Juan Diego and Saint Kateri Tekakwitha, and especially through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Queen of the Holy Rosary, who vanquishes all heresy, grant that the members of the coming Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon and the Holy Father be protected from the danger of approving doctrinal errors and ambiguities, and of undermining the Apostolic rule of priestly celibacy.

In other words, know your faith, live your faith, and defend your faith.

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  1. danok1 Member
    danok1
    @danok1

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    danok1 (View Comment):

    I join @arizonapatriot and @drbastiat in prayer for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

    Today (October 1) the Orthodox observe the Feast of the Holy Protection of the Theotokos. Seems an appropriate day to ask Her to extend the protection of Her prayers to our Roman brothers.

    I very hesitant to open a can of worms, here. I did not actually say anything about praying for the situation. I did extend sympathy to Scott.

    I have significant theological disagreements with both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I’m not sure how to handle them. As an example, Danok1, I’m not at all comfortable with the idea of praying to the Virgin Mary, or to any of the saints. It does appear that those of the Catholic and Orthodox persuasion view such prayer in a different way than I.

    I am willing to pray for God’s wisdom, grace, mercy, and guidance in the situation, and that His will be done (actually, I just did, before writing this sentence). I don’t know His will in these circumstances, but I do believe that it is in His hands.

    @arizonapatriot I apologize for inadvertently misrepresenting what you said. As far as prayers to the Theotokos are concerned, I was speaking for myself, since I’m Orthodox. I didn’t mean to imply that you should pray to her.

    • #31
  2. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I have significant theological disagreements with both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I’m not sure how to handle them. As an example, Danok1, I’m not at all comfortable with the idea of praying to the Virgin Mary, or to any of the saints. It does appear that those of the Catholic and Orthodox persuasion view such prayer in a different way than I.

    If you have ever asked a friend or your church to pray for you, what do you suppose is different there vs. those who are not with us anymore?

    Do the saints and our departed Christian brethren reside in the presence of the Lord? Are they still a part of the church? Is there something significantly different between asking your local parish to pray for you vs. The entirety of all the church that has come before us?

    Why not seek the intercession of the saints, as well? If they are with the resurrected Christ, then are they not still a part of the universal church? Does faith in Christ our Lord give eternal life or not?

    • #32
  3. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Stina (View Comment):
    If you have ever asked a friend or your church to pray for you, what do you suppose is different there vs. those who are not with us anymore?

    Right. The only difference between a soul on Earth and a soul passed is that the deceased are no longer blinded by the flesh. Their time for faith is over. They know

    Traditional Christians mostly ask saints to pray for us, as friends do.

    When we ask them to intercede, it is like asking a better-behaved sibling to talk to Dad on our behalf. Ultimately, we are still appealing to Dad. But what parent complains when children band together in such a way? We share faith with each other, not just with our Maker. 

    It’s perhaps a little silly not appealing directly to our Father. But human nature is what it is.

    • #33
  4. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Is the Pope an active Jesuit or a past Jesuit?         If you follow Dr. Moynihan of the Moynihan Letters, he has been interviewing Archbishop Vigano from an undisclosed location – his letters are fascinating.  Inside the Vatican magazine has highlighted very interesting interviews – and offered many from Pope Emeritus Benedict, who confirmed that everything with the Jesuits changed in 1965. They turned, like an arrow shaped weathervane, in the opposite direction after 400 years.  I’m clueless, so I ordered a used copy of The Jesuits – The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church by Malachi Martin 1978. I’m halfway through.  Amazingly, Moynhan’s recent letter last week quotes extensively from this book, and said he interviewed Martin in late 90’s.  Martin was a former Jesuit.  It’s jaw-dropping and required reading for anyone interested in what the heck has happened to our world!

    The other book which I finished recently is The Secret of Benedict XVI – Is He Still the Pope? by Antonio Socci – another excellent book.

    https://insidethevatican.com/category/news/newsflash/

    Read Letter #50 specifically.

    PS Letter #42 is from his trip to Ukraine (talk about timing)

    • #34
  5. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    • #35
  6. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    As one Brazilian anthropologist who lived with Amazonian tribes stated when a member of the tribe no longer contributes due to old age they are no longer fed. The Noble Savage is indeed admired by the modern pagans of the Western World.

    The Tibetans did this as well until Buddha told them to be nice to old people. 

    • #36
  7. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    Great question. I don’t know.

    • #37
  8. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Old Bathos

    This is a novel situation. Openly corrupt Popes (and there are some real winners on that list) invariably did not work to change doctrine or the substance of the Faith. They contented themselves with power, sex and money and left the faithful to carry on. Theologians don’t cite encyclicals from Medici or Borgia popes because they did not write any.

    Honest communists are usually worse than corrupt capitalists. With many of the corrupt Popes, everyone knew they were corrupt and not to be taken seriously. Where it only say with Francis. 

    • #38
  9. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    On the other hand, they gave us Pope Benedict XVI and sausages.

    • #39
  10. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    Great question. I don’t know.

    There is something deeply ingrained in the Germanic DNA that predisposes them to accept authoritarianism. This has been so for hundreds of years. Likely, those of a more libertine bent have been exterminated out of existence. 

    • #40
  11. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    They have a really bizarre history compared to the rest of western europe, too. Almost like they really don’t belong with the west at all. Are we certain they belong west of the hajnal line?

    I do think they have had worse interactions with eastern people groups than most the rest of western Europe.

    • #41
  12. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    Stina (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    They have a really bizarre history compared to the rest of western europe, too. Almost like they really don’t belong with the west at all. Are we certain they belong west of the hajnal line?

    I do think they have had worse interactions with eastern people groups than most the rest of western Europe.

    Hammers and nails should be banned within 50 feet of a church door in Germany.

     

    • #42
  13. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    Great question. I don’t know.

    There is something deeply ingrained in the Germanic DNA that predisposes them to accept authoritarianism. This has been so for hundreds of years. Likely, those of a more libertine bent have been exterminated out of existence.

    Or they emigrated here

    • #43
  14. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    danok1 (View Comment):

    I join @arizonapatriot and @drbastiat in prayer for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

    Today (October 1) the Orthodox observe the Feast of the Holy Protection of the Theotokos. Seems an appropriate day to ask Her to extend the protection of Her prayers to our Roman brothers.

    I very hesitant to open a can of worms, here. I did not actually say anything about praying for the situation. I did extend sympathy to Scott.

    I have significant theological disagreements with both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I’m not sure how to handle them. As an example, Danok1, I’m not at all comfortable with the idea of praying to the Virgin Mary, or to any of the saints. It does appear that those of the Catholic and Orthodox persuasion view such prayer in a different way than I.

    I am willing to pray for God’s wisdom, grace, mercy, and guidance in the situation, and that His will be done (actually, I just did, before writing this sentence). I don’t know His will in these circumstances, but I do believe that it is in His hands.

    @arizonapatriot I apologize for inadvertently misrepresenting what you said. As far as prayers to the Theotokos are concerned, I was speaking for myself, since I’m Orthodox. I didn’t mean to imply that you should pray to her.

    No problem.  I don’t want to emphasize disagreements here, but I felt that I ought to clarify my position.

    • #44
  15. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I have significant theological disagreements with both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I’m not sure how to handle them.

    Well, to start, I’ll offer you this good article on why we Catholics pray to the saints for intercession. Perhaps you have read something like this before, but since you brought it up I link to it so others that might have the same concerns can at least know where we stand.

    Scott, thanks.  In my particular case, I was aware of the general view of both Catholic and Orthodox believers, but your link would have been of benefit to me if this had not been the case, and will be of benefit to others.

    • #45
  16. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Scott, I’m not sure if you’ve concluded that the current Pope is a heretic, and it’s not my place to say. Is there a specific term that would apply to a heretical Pope?

    If we had a heretical pope the See of Peter would be vacant. The doctrine of infallibility is a negative protection, i.e., it protects the pope from teaching error. Should a pope teach heresy, he would essentially remove himself from office and would no longer be pope – because a pope cannot teach heresy.

    As for Francis, I do not think he is a formal heretic, but I am disappointed in the confusion that he has sown – what one priest calls weaponized ambiguity – a phrase that I find very apt.

    I ask this to help me understand how a faithful Catholic might respond to heresy by a Pope.

    If I understand your response correctly, if a Pope teaches heresy, then he effectively removes himself from his Papal office by that very act.  Is the individual Catholic to judge this for himself?  If an individual Catholic concludes that the Pope has committed heresy, and is therefore no longer the Pope, what is the individual supposed to do?

    • #46
  17. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    If I understand your response correctly, if a Pope teaches heresy, then he effectively removes himself from his Papal office by that very act. Is the individual Catholic to judge this for himself? If an individual Catholic concludes that the Pope has committed heresy, and is therefore no longer the Pope, what is the individual supposed to do?

    Dang Jerry I wish you would ask and easy question. Canon lawyers have written gobs of material on this question and it is still one difficult to answer.

    Canon 751 defines heresy as the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith. So let’s say for example that the pope denies that Jesus died on the Cross and resurrected on Easter Sunday. That view is objectively heresy. But the pope would only be a heretic if I or someone else told him that this belief is heresy and he “obstinately” continued to believe this. In that case, he has excommunicated himself latae sententia. If the pope came to believe that Jesus died on the Cross and resurrected, he would not be a heretic, even though he held that view before.

    We have to follow the Church on this, and the Church still sees Francis as pope, even though he has sown great confusion (particularly on Holy Communion for the divorced and “remarried” and on the death penalty).

    For the record, I disagree with the pope on his pastoral application of allowing divorced and “remarried” (the ambiguous weaponized term the pope used in Amoris Laetitia for this is “irregular marriages” – or what is known as adultery) to receive Holy Communion and on his change to the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says the death penalty is “inadmissible” – another ambiguous term. Mind you, he hasn’t specifically stated that the divorced and “remarried” are not in a state of mortal sin and he hasn’t declared the death penalty an intrinsic evil – he’s just sown confusion. I’ve used my conscience (the application of knowledge to some action, where that “knowledge” is not a subjective feeling, but rather my soul’s coordination to objective truth that comes from God through natural law and divine revelation). In other words, the constant teaching of the Church has always allowed the death penalty and divorced and “remarried” Catholics are in a state of mortal sin unless they are living as brother and sister.

    I don’t know if that helps – it is a difficult question. It will be sorted out in time.

    • #47
  18. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    It happens that I’m in the middle of reading a history of the Church. A quote of St Paul from his biblical letter to the Galatians reminded me of this discussion about popes and theological precedent: 

    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

    As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

    Pope Francis has sewn confusion, as Scott says. If he was outright heretical, I trust many bishops to call that out and to demand correction. 

    I think non-Catholics often over-estimate the role of popes in the faith of Catholics. Until the past century, Christians did not often hear a pope’s thoughts or even read his encyclicals. We vaguely pray for “the pope’s intentions”, but otherwise expect him to handle worldly administration (such as procedures for recognizing marital annulments) while defending the truth he received… as we all received. We rely on his discernment of worthy priests to appoint as bishops and hope that he will represent holiness for all. But excellent popes of recent decades have perhaps misled people to look to a pope for daily inspiration. Like the liturgy and the Bible, a good pope helps us to focus rather on Christ.

    • #48
  19. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    Great question. I don’t know.

    There is something deeply ingrained in the Germanic DNA that predisposes them to accept authoritarianism. This has been so for hundreds of years. Likely, those of a more libertine bent have been exterminated out of existence.

    Or they emigrated here

    I should note that German immigrants in America and Mexico don’t seem to have authoritarian tendencies. It was German generals who fought Germany in both WWI and WWII. 

    • #49
  20. Steve C. Member
    Steve C.
    @user_531302

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot: For, you see, the Germans – even the so-called Catholics like Cardinals Kasper and Marx – are almost as pagan as the poor people of the Amazon. The progressive version of Catholicism that the Germans preach is leading to the death of the Church in Germany.

    What’s with Germans and their beef with Western Civilization? Marx, Nietzsche, Nazism, post-modernism and now the pagan Catholics. Did Western Civilization insult their Mom or something?

    Great question. I don’t know.

    There is something deeply ingrained in the Germanic DNA that predisposes them to accept authoritarianism. This has been so for hundreds of years. Likely, those of a more libertine bent have been exterminated out of existence.

    Or they emigrated here

    I should note that German immigrants in America and Mexico don’t seem to have authoritarian tendencies. It was German generals who fought Germany in both WWI and WWII.

    I think the more appropriate word here is Prussian, not German. 

    • #50
  21. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Six cardinals have now publicly condemned the dangers of this synod – Cardinal Ouellet, a close advisor to the pope, being the most recent.

    http://magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/2019/10/02/even-a-cardinal-close-to-bergoglio-is-condemning-the-dangers-of-the-synods-of-the-amazon-and-germany/

    Also, A group of bishops, priests and Catholic faithful from around the world, who wish to remain nameless because of what they call a “climate of intimidation” in the Church, have signed four propositions critical of the Amazon synod’s working document and addressed them to Pope Francis and synod fathers.

    Quoting from the first article linked:

    The third position statement is from “quite a number of prelates, priests, and Catholic faithful all over the world,” who in a manifesto made public in multiple languages on October 1 accused four “theses” of the base document of the synod of being “in contradiction both with individual points of the Catholic doctrine always taught by the Church, and with faith in the Lord Jesus, the only savior of all men”.

    The first of the four “theses” judged as erroneous is also the most serious. It is where the “Instrumentum Laboris,” at no. 39, states that “a corporatist attitude, that reserves salvation exclusively for one’s own creed [editor’s note – meaning the creed of the Catholic Church] is destructive of that very creed.”

    The authors of the manifesto contrast this thesis with the key statement of the 2000 declaration “Dominus Iesus,” which says that “those solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.”

    • #51
  22. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    The spin machine is up and running.

    • #52
  23. She Member
    She
    @She

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    My intent was not to offend. It was to clarify.

    For my sake, I thank God that I have a choice in churches.

    Doesn’t everybody?

     

    • #53
  24. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    should note that German immigrants in America and Mexico don’t seem to have authoritarian tendencies

    Lol.

    German immigrants are why we have a compulsory public education system.

    I’m of german ancestry, so I have no motive to impugn them.

    • #54
  25. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Stina (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    I have significant theological disagreements with both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. I’m not sure how to handle them. As an example, Danok1, I’m not at all comfortable with the idea of praying to the Virgin Mary, or to any of the saints. It does appear that those of the Catholic and Orthodox persuasion view such prayer in a different way than I.

    If you have ever asked a friend or your church to pray for you, what do you suppose is different there vs. those who are not with us anymore?

    Do the saints and our departed Christian brethren reside in the presence of the Lord? Are they still a part of the church? Is there something significantly different between asking your local parish to pray for you vs. The entirety of all the church that has come before us?

    Why not seek the intercession of the saints, as well? If they are with the resurrected Christ, then are they not still a part of the universal church? Does faith in Christ our Lord give eternal life or not?

    Stina, I’ve put off responding to this.  I hesitate to delve further into a divisive issue, but I will respond briefly.

    It looks very, very different to me.  I have no personal relationship with departed believers.  I do not know whether they can hear any prayers that I might offer.  I do have such a relationship with my friends in church, and I know that they can hear me when I talk to them.

    I do agree that departed Christians are in the presence of the Lord, and are part of the church.

    I worry that seeking the intercession of departed Christian believers appears close to idolotry and paganism.  This strikes me as a reason to decline to embrace the practice.

    I do not know of any direct Biblical support for the idea that it is appropriate to “pray to the saints” or to ask them to intercede on our behalf.  I did carefully read the article on this linked by Scott (here is the link again), and did not see any such Biblical support.

    I particularly worry that the idea of having a “patron saint” of such-and-such appears quite close to polytheism, with the idea being that there is a separate “god” responsible for different aspects of life or the world.  I worry that the practice arose out of a desire to appeal to polytheists — something like telling a pagan sailor: “Hey, stop praying to Neptune; instead, pray to St. Brendan the Navigator;” or telling a woman: “Don’t pray to the Mother Goddess; instead, pray to the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.”

    I think that we agree that we can all pray directly to Jesus, so this seems a better idea to me.

    • #55
  26. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Stina (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    should note that German immigrants in America and Mexico don’t seem to have authoritarian tendencies

    Lol.

    German immigrants are why we have a compulsory public education system.

    I’m of german ancestry, so I have no motive to impugn them.

    When the Germans started compulsory education it was a big improvement. Then the government/human corruption and rot started to set in. The same thing has happened in Germany’s system of colleges. They were once the envy of the world. I’m not sure how much we can blame the older Germans for later generations of neglect and foolishness.

    • #56
  27. Scott Wilmot Member
    Scott Wilmot
    @ScottWilmot

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I do agree that departed Christians are in the presence of the Lord, and are part of the church.

    I worry that seeking the intercession of departed Christian believers appears close to idolotry and paganism. This strikes me as a reason to decline to embrace the practice.

    I do not know of any direct Biblical support for the idea that it is appropriate to “pray to the saints” or to ask them to intercede on our behalf. I did carefully read the article on this linked by Scott (here is the link again), and did not see any such Biblical support.

    From this first sentence of yours that I quote, you seem to believe in the communion of saints, which is good, because it is part of the Apostle’s Creed.

    Perhaps Patrick Madrid can make things clearer for you. He not only has the article I linked to but also an entire book on this subject. You have no need to worry that praying to the saints for their intercession is idolatry or paganism. It is very Biblical and has been around since the beginnings of the Church.

    The use of the word saints is commonly used by Paul and also by Luke in Acts to refer to those dedicated to the teachings of Christ – he is talking about you and me. So when in Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4 the reference to incense rising as the prayers of the saints clearly refers to the prayers of the Christians on earth who asked for the intercession of those in Heaven.

    • #57
  28. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Scott, I’m not sure if you’ve concluded that the current Pope is a heretic, and it’s not my place to say. Is there a specific term that would apply to a heretical Pope?

    If we had a heretical pope the See of Peter would be vacant. The doctrine of infallibility is a negative protection, i.e., it protects the pope from teaching error. Should a pope teach heresy, he would essentially remove himself from office and would no longer be pope – because a pope cannot teach heresy.

    As for Francis, I do not think he is a formal heretic, but I am disappointed in the confusion that he has sown – what one priest calls weaponized ambiguity – a phrase that I find very apt.

    I ask this to help me understand how a faithful Catholic might respond to heresy by a Pope.

    If I understand your response correctly, if a Pope teaches heresy, then he effectively removes himself from his Papal office by that very act. Is the individual Catholic to judge this for himself? If an individual Catholic concludes that the Pope has committed heresy, and is therefore no longer the Pope, what is the individual supposed to do?

    Again is Pope Francis an active Jesuit (or former)?

    • #58
  29. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    She (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    My intent was not to offend. It was to clarify.

    For my sake, I thank God that I have a choice in churches.

    Doesn’t everybody?

     

    No. That much is very clear. 

    • #59
  30. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    My intent was not to offend. It was to clarify.

    For my sake, I thank God that I have a choice in churches.

    Doesn’t everybody?

     

    No. That much is very clear.

    @bryangstephens

    Can you please explain. I don’t get your meaning. Last I checked, the first amendment was doing pretty well. 

    • #60
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