Made to Care: The Illiberality of LGBT Politics

 

The subtitle to this piece could have been: We Told You So.

We marriage defenders said, “You can either have religious freedom/freedom of conscience or same-sex ‘marriage,’ but not both.” You may be asking, “Why is she bringing that up again? Does she want to restart the SSM wars?” It’s because the Culture Wars are back in the news, and not just in the US, but throughout “advanced” (beyond the truth) societies of the West.

Here at home, the Colorado baker is going to have his day at the Supreme Court. It only remains to be seen if Justice Anthony “Obergefell” Kennedy will decide in favor of the First Amendment or his own misguided redefinition of marriage. Even if he decides the baker gets to keep his freedom of conscience, he may do so on very narrow grounds that the baker has freedom of “creative expression” as an artist, and not so much freedom of association as implicitly guaranteed by the First Amendment.

And then there’s Rocklin Academy. Even kindergartners must be made to conform to the ascendant transgender confusion. Their teacher read I am Jazz and Red: A Crayon’s Story before the big reveal of their classmate as a trans-girl. Neither the teacher nor the administration thought it important to inform the students’ parents before teaching the kids that blue is red, or boys can be girls, if they feel like it. Notice a trend here?

LGBT politics isn’t about “marriage equality” or transgender rights. It is an attack on objective truth and an empowerment of authorities at all levels to coerce speech and thought. Marriage has always been a legitimization of male/female conjugal unions because it is in the interests of individuals and society to attach the naturally occurring offspring of such unions to their parents in family units. That was widely understood as the truth of marriage – the accepted social reality. Up until Obergefell (and, leading up to it, gay adoption), we, as individuals and as a society, were allowed to remain indifferent to naturally sterile relationships between homosexuals. No more. We are being forced to care.

It’s the same with the minuscule fraction of people with gender dysphoria. While their condition is tragic for these individuals and the people who love them, their impact on society was negligible until now. Now laws are being passed to compel speech in the form of “preferred pronouns” (ref: Jordan Peterson, Canada), and children are having their world turned upside down by the revision of what is so obviously true: a person with a penis (and XY chromosomes) is a boy, and a person without a penis (and XX chromosomes) is a girl. One might even say, “it’s science!”

These are just isolated anecdotes, you say? Ha! Let’s look at what happens when a nation caves to the LGBT agenda.

In Great Britain, the slide into unreality moves apace. The “Ministry of Equality” has expressed support for a proposal to allow gender reassignment surgery without any medical consultation as building on the “progress” of same-sex “marriage.” Also from an “equalities” minister:  “I feel we’ll only have proper equal marriage when you can bloody well get married in a church if you want to do so, without having to fight the church for the equality that should be your right.” The leader of the Liberal Democrats was forced to resign despite voting for SSM, because his Christian belief that marriage is between a man and a woman is intolerable in politics and must be publicly denounced. Further, Christians are being excluded from foster parenting because, “The equality provisions concerning sexual orientation should take precedence.”  You can’t make this shtuff up. So now homosexual couples will be able to foster and adopt, but people of religious conviction won’t. “Family” is now anything but a man and a woman loving their children in a faith-filled home.

We live in such stupid times.

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  1. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    MJBubba (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Mitchell Messom (View Comment):
    I imagine you would have made the tradition excuse for slavery. Blind obedience is not an Anglo-American tradition.

    Spoken like a true progressive.

    If thinking the end of slavery was a positive good makes me a progressive, then sign me up.

    Equating the evil of slavery with the work required to establish an estate plan for a partner is a bit much, don’t you think? The comparison trivializes slavery.

    Yes, that comparison would trivialize slavery, and I didn’t make it. Let’s recap:

    Having to bake a cake – complete triviality

    Being denied the right to marry – serious injustice

    Slavery – crime against humanity

    How’s that sound?

    No good, Cato. I completely reject your assessment.

    I know you do.  That’s why it’s my assessment.  And in any event, I hope it illustrates that I’m not equating marriage deprivation with slavery, which is what I was accused of.

    • #361
  2. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    ….

    Try commingling assets with a non spouse. Try leaving an estate to a non spouse. We’ve already discussed hospital visitations and medical decisions on this thread. Try getting a non spouses survivot SSI. Or family health insurance. Marriage matters. Our whole legal and financial and health infrastructure recognizes it. Being deprived of access to all of that makes being forced to bake a cake look like a complete triviality.

    Cato, people own property jointly all the time, and estate law ain’t new. You can leave your estate to whomever you please.

    Ed, meet Mr. gift and estate tax. Mr. gift and estate tax, this is Ed.

    Agreed 100 %. Eliminating estate and gift tax would have been both better and easier.

    Well there’s something we could, and can, agree on. But that is not the entirety of the issue. It is simply the reason that your claim that we could freely commingle assets was patently wrong.

    It’s not patently wrong. You can commingle assets then and now. People do it all the time. Joint bank accounts, joint ownership of property.

    You’re not an accountant, are you?

    I am. I will not reopen the ssm debate, and going further would require it. So you are correct that there are taxes applicable to non married people which married people can avoid. I would say it’s not and never was completely unavoidable, so therefore not patently wrong. To the extent you are correct, I don’t think changing civil marriage was the answer, I think there were better answers and fixes.

    • #362
  3. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    We tinker, yes, but the whole Anglophone tradition is… a tradition. The common law we all (this includes each US state in its own right) inherited from Mother England is… a tradition.

    And what about that more proximate tradition we call the United States Constitution, no original public understanding of which (including the 14th Amendment) countenances any of the gay rights agenda, including the basic decriminalizing of sodomy, being dictated from the federal bench.

    I’d vote for gay marriage were I a state assemblyman. But Scalia, Rehnquist and Thomas were right on Lawrence.

    Well, now, Scalia is an interesting case, because he could really be quite deferential to precedent, even when he thought the precedent bad. Certainly, Scalia was deferential to precedent on economic matters (annoyingly so, is my impression). By now, one very well-received precedent is the “right to privacy” based on the 4th Amendment “right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects”. Public indecency is one thing. Expecting to have a right to the quiet enjoyment of corrupting a child in one’s own home is also one thing. But once a right to privacy is established, it does seem very strange to punish sexual behavior that’s neither publicly indecent nor involves minors.

    Of course, my reading wouldn’t extend federal legislative or constitutional rights via the First Amendment to religious institutions against state action either.

    I was happy with the Lochner-era approach that relied on substantive due process to protect economic rights. I know some consider substantive due process an oxymoron, but I don’t, although it certainly can be abused. Incorporation seems the natural consequence of including the 14th Amendment, as both critics and supporters of ratifying the 14th Amendment supposed it would do. And apparently,

    Dr. Thomas Bonham’s case came before Chief Justice Edward Coke of the British Court of Common Pleas in 1610. At issue was a law that gave the London College of Physicians the power to imprison anyone practicing medicine without a license. Coke argued in his decision that the law was void for being “against common right and reason.” American jurists in the colonial era cited this case in support of the principle that statutes that conflict with fundamental law are void. It is often held to be the antecedent of both the doctrine of substantive due process and judicial review.

    Is the law limited to statutes, courtroom procedures, and just the enumerated bits of the Constitution, or is the law also meant to include what’s alluded to in the Ninth Amendment? Is our law meant to inherit the deference to “common right and reason” that holds statues that violate it unlawful? I think it is. (It’s interesting, though that an article proposed to be included in the Bill of Rights didn’t get any farther than it did, but maybe not surprising, considering no state had requested it:

    [Madison] did provide one, however, that no state had requested: “No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases.”)

    It’s well and good to say it’s better when legislatures take care of these matters rather than the courts. I agree. But the caricature of judges as vultures thwarting the will of the people by keeping legislators (who are somehow not vultures in this scenario) in check is not one I happen to agree with. If judges are vultures, so are legislators. If left to their own devices, legislators will infringe on “the Rights of Englishmen” which our Constitution seems to take for granted rather than repudiate. Judges are supposed to keep that from happening. That Progressive judgery has perverted this purpose doesn’t mean it’s right for judges to abdicate their duty to it. Conservatives seemed pretty happy with McDonald v Chicago, and we’re evidently very dependent on religious-freedom exemptions (especially now that courts are over-deferential to the legislature on several important rights). We see the point of one set of vultures pecking down the other set when the pecking goes in our favor.

    • #363
  4. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I know you do. That’s why it’s my assessment. And in any event, I hope it illustrates that I’m not equating marriage deprivation with slavery, which is what I was accused of.

    The first side that plays the slavery card owns it.  Them’s the rules.

    • #364
  5. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    MJBubba (View Comment):

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    We tinker, yes, but the whole Anglophone tradition is… a tradition. The common law we all (this includes each US state in its own right) inherited from Mother England is… a tradition.

    And what about that more proximate tradition we call the United States Constitution, no original public understanding of which (including the 14th Amendment) countenances any of the gay rights agenda, including the basic decriminalizing of sodomy, being dictated from the federal bench.

    I’d vote for gay marriage were I a state assemblyman. But Scalia, Rehnquist and Thomas were right on Lawrence.

    Of course, my reading wouldn’t extend federal legislative or constitutional rights via the First Amendment to religious institutions against state action either.

    Quake Voter, let me refer you to the “Doctrine of Incorporation,” in which the individual liberties of the first eight Amendments are held to have been imposed on the states by the 14th Amendment. Robert McReynolds posted on that just a few days ago.

    http://ricochet.com/455647/rethinking-incorporation-and-limited-government/

    @robertmcreynolds

    Thanks for the thousandth introduction to the incorporation fiction created 135 years after the ratification of our Constitution.  Created 60 years after the 14th Amendment.  Substantive due process is a liberal myth and the seventy-five year relentless campaign to incrementally impose a leftist conception of the Bill of Rights on every state and local government in a manner which does not “shock the conscience” (in Frankfurter’s stage directions) has been disastrous for conservatism, especially conservatarianism.

    • #365
  6. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I know you do. That’s why it’s my assessment. And in any event, I hope it illustrates that I’m not equating marriage deprivation with slavery, which is what I was accused of.

    The first side that plays the slavery card owns it. Them’s the rules.

    Dude, that is harsh!

    Basil Fawlty, an you accept I lay a geas on you to write a fabulous original post, because I like your writing and I think that I and the rest of Ricochet would immensely enjoy it.

    • #366
  7. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    By now, one very well-received precedent is the “right to privacy” based on the 4th Amendment “right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects”. Public indecency is one thing. Expecting to have a right to the quiet enjoyment of corrupting a child in one’s own home is also one thing. But once a right to privacy is established, it does seem very strange to punish sexual behavior that’s neither publicly indecent nor involves minors.

    Midget, you are working out of a pleasant, personal Constitutional grab bag.  A little bit of precedent here, some well-received recent discoveries, some retrieved dicta, a little shadowy penumbra, a few learned dips into English common law, a false dichotomy with repellent behavior and a quick bypass of the distinction between elected legislators and judges legislating from the bench.

    You accomplish it with very appealing erudition and intellectual liveliness.

    But you don’t arrive at anything like conservative constitutionalism.

    You arrive at the sort of temperament and talented outlook which should be making decisions in our state legislatures.

    PS:  I support the rights of parents to corrupt their children (most parents placing their child in a madrassa do); it’s the price paid to home school my children for freedom.

    • #367
  8. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I know you do. That’s why it’s my assessment. And in any event, I hope it illustrates that I’m not equating marriage deprivation with slavery, which is what I was accused of.

    The first side that plays the slavery card owns it. Them’s the rules.

    Dude, that is harsh!

    Basil Fawlty, an you accept I lay a geas on you to write a fabulous original post, because I like your writing and I think that I and the rest of Ricochet would immensely enjoy it.

    A geas, eh? Thank you for the kind words, Zafar. I’ll think about it but I’ve never been very good at spelling.

    • #368
  9. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Your spelling is excellent.

    • #369
  10. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    ….

    Try commingling assets with a non spouse. Try leaving an estate to a non spouse. We’ve already discussed hospital visitations and medical decisions on this thread. Try getting a non spouses survivot SSI. Or family health insurance. Marriage matters. Our whole legal and financial and health infrastructure recognizes it. Being deprived of access to all of that makes being forced to bake a cake look like a complete triviality.

    Cato, people own property jointly all the time, and estate law ain’t new. You can leave your estate to whomever you please.

    Ed, meet Mr. gift and estate tax. Mr. gift and estate tax, this is Ed.

    Agreed 100 %. Eliminating estate and gift tax would have been both better and easier.

    Well there’s something we could, and can, agree on. But that is not the entirety of the issue. It is simply the reason that your claim that we could freely commingle assets was patently wrong.

    It’s not patently wrong. You can commingle assets then and now. People do it all the time. Joint bank accounts, joint ownership of property.

    You’re not an accountant, are you?

    I am. I will not reopen the ssm debate, and going further would require it. So you are correct that there are taxes applicable to non married people which married people can avoid. I would say it’s not and never was completely unavoidable, so therefore not patently wrong. To the extent you are correct, I don’t think changing civil marriage was the answer, I think there were better answers and fixes.

    I think buried in all that evasion is an acknowledgement that the claim that we could have freely commingled assets was false.  Yes, the tax was avoidable.  I could have declined to support my spouse.  Or I could have broken the law.  If you know of a third way, Mr. Accountant, to avoid the tax, I’d be all ears.

    (And of course we agree that eliminating the byzantine gift and estate tax system would have been nice, but I was talking about the world as it is, not as I’d like it to be.  If we get to live in a world as I’d like it to be, I’ve got a long list of suggestions.)

    • #370
  11. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    Well, now, Scalia is an interesting case, because he could really be quite deferential to precedent, even when he thought the precedent bad. Certainly, Scalia was deferential to precedent on economic matters (annoyingly so, is my impression). By now, one very well-received precedent is the “right to privacy” based on the 4th Amendment “right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects”. Public indecency is one thing. Expecting to have a right to the quiet enjoyment of corrupting a child in one’s own home is also one thing. But once a right to privacy is established, it does seem very strange to punish sexual behavior that’s neither publicly indecent nor involves minors.

    Midget, you are working out of a pleasant, personal Constitutional grab bag.

    I am pointing out that what you call a Constitutional grab bag already exists. I don’t know if you noticed it, but “once a right to privacy is established, it does seem very strange to punish sexual behavior that’s neither publicly indecent nor involves minors” is a conditional statement.

     

    • #371
  12. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Quake Voter (View Comment):
    But you don’t arrive at anything like conservative constitutionalism.

    The Slaughterhouse dissent was in the right, the Lochner era was in the right. The Progressives who repudiated Lochner, pleading deference to legislatures on our less “sexy” rights were wrong. That’s pretty conservative. Indeed, pretty conservatarian.

    Rehabilitating Lochner: Defending Individual Rights against Progressive Reform

    In Lochner v. New York, the Supreme Court famously invalidated a state law that limited the number of hours a day a baker could work. Perhaps unfairly, it is seen as the flagship case for the now much-reviled idea there is a liberty of contract right implicit in the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment. However, as Prof. Bernstein shows, Lochner was neither extraordinary nor unprecedented…

    …Prof. Bernstein buttresses his direct discussion of Lochner in the early chapters with ample context. The concept of economic rights was not an anomalous legal doctrine. It was rooted in orginalist interpretation of the Constitution (albeit a proto-originalism).

    What Peckham said was, “Under that provision no state shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. The right to purchase or to sell labor is part of the liberty protected by this amendment.” Of course the New Deal Justices thought Peckham was nuts, or evil. Oliver Wendell Holmes (progenitor of the hugely-inflated rational basis test)

    believed that “Liberty of Contract” did not exist and that it was not was intended in the Constitution.

    What we learn from our judicial history – especially regarding slavery and antiblack laws, but not limited to them – is that the Privileges and Immunities Clause, the Impairment of Contract Clause, the Takings Clause, etc, aren’t worth two bits if the due process in the 14th Amendment, which is meant to reassert these rights for all Americans (the Privileges and Immunities Clause evidently having proved most unfortunately toothless by itself), is merely procedural. What’s procedural due process? You get fair notice, a hearing before an impartial judge – but, as our own history has quite painfully taught us, not a hearing before a judge who’s obligated to respect

    …those privileges and immunities which are, in their nature, fundamental; which belong, of right, to the citizens of all free governments…

    …the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety; subject nevertheless to such restraints as the Government must justly prescribe for the general good of the whole…

    The rightful use of substantive due process, IMO, is to obligate justices to be not just “impartial” (which in practice includes being willing to pretend that legislation which violates these rights could be just as good as the rights themselves), but to actually enforce these these rights, not pretend that laws violating these rights are just as good as the rights themselves.

    Yes, the Privileges and Immunities Clause provides a way the Constitution could be interpreted to make the 14th Amendment and incorporation unnecessary. Unfortunately, the Constitution failed to be interpreted that way often enough for the privileges and immunities the citizens of all states should enjoy (no matter what kind of crazy stunts their state tries to pull) to no longer be protected by the Privileges and Immunities Clause itself.  Perhaps the 14th Amendment should have read, “You know the Privileges and Immunities Clause? Well, we meant it. For everyone!“? ;-P

    Substantive due process did not have to be about granting the courts license to invent new rights. Obviously Progressive justices have abused it to create fictitious rights (which revolts me as much as you). Substantive due process should be about acknowledging, though, that the courts should be bound to enforce our real fundamental rights – because as history has painfully proved, time and time again, neither citizen nor judge can rely on legislators for that enforcement.

    • #372
  13. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    Having to bake a cake – complete triviality

    Being denied the right to marry – serious injustice

    You keep calling it “having to bake a cake.” You keep ignoring that the punishments meted out by courts has been far more severe than forced baking of cakes.

    I am left with the impression that you think it’s perfectly acceptable to destroy people’s businesses and lives because you want a cake. Losing your livelihood is not trivial. But it was never really about a cake, was it? It was about punishing people for thought-crimes.

    We should all be very careful about the things we demand that the government sort out for us. Freedom of association is very important in giving gay people the right to freely associate with each other. Do you really want the federal government messing around with it? Are you certain it could never be used against you?

    No, I actually don’t think it’s ok to destroy people’s businesses over this. I understand there’s a principle at stake and frankly, I just don’t want a government that’s so intrusive it can tell you who to bake for. I still think it’s possible to see differences in magnitude where injustices are concerned.

    What you’re not seeing is that you won! Your side won! You got gay marriage. Yay you. It was not necessary to destroy Christian businesses in order to get gay marriage. Those weren’t the opposing choices. The reason it’s happening is simple vindictiveness. Had your side been happy with victory, things likely would have settled down just fine. But too many on your side were not simply happy in victory.

     

    • #373
  14. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    Having to bake a cake – complete triviality

    Being denied the right to marry – serious injustice

    You keep calling it “having to bake a cake.” You keep ignoring that the punishments meted out by courts has been far more severe than forced baking of cakes.

    I am left with the impression that you think it’s perfectly acceptable to destroy people’s businesses and lives because you want a cake. Losing your livelihood is not trivial. But it was never really about a cake, was it? It was about punishing people for thought-crimes.

    We should all be very careful about the things we demand that the government sort out for us. Freedom of association is very important in giving gay people the right to freely associate with each other. Do you really want the federal government messing around with it? Are you certain it could never be used against you?

    No, I actually don’t think it’s ok to destroy people’s businesses over this. I understand there’s a principle at stake and frankly, I just don’t want a government that’s so intrusive it can tell you who to bake for. I still think it’s possible to see differences in magnitude where injustices are concerned.

    What you’re not seeing is that you won! Your side won! You got gay marriage. Yay you. It was not necessary to destroy Christian businesses in order to get gay marriage. Those weren’t the opposing choices. The reason it’s happening is simple vindictiveness. Had your side been happy with victory, things likely would have settled down just fine. But too many on your side were not simply happy in victory.

     

    What you don’t see is that you’re presuming to tell me who “my side” is.  I was on their side w/r/t marriage equality.  I’m theoretically on yours when it comes to destroying these businesses.  It’s just that some of the people on your (our) side on that issue are so nasty that they make it hard to care very much and uncomfortable to be associated with them.

    • #374
  15. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Mitchell Messom (View Comment):
    Is it the SSM law that allows the couple to sue the baker or is an anti-discrimination law?

    The latter. SSM merely exposed how those laws could be so easily abused.

    In fairness, though, @mjbubba and others are correct that one of the (predicted) effects of passing SSM was that it would make it easier for these old laws to be abused in this way.

    The problem, however, is those damn old laws.

    • #375
  16. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Mitchell Messom (View Comment):
    Is it the SSM law that allows the couple to sue the baker or is an anti-discrimination law?

    The latter. SSM merely exposed how those laws could be so easily abused.

    In fairness, though, @mjbubba and others are correct that one of the (predicted) effects of passing SSM was that it would make it easier for these old laws to be abused in this way.

    The problem, however, is those damn old laws.

    Good luck getting them repealed.  They’re the flagships of the civil rights movement.

    • #376
  17. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    …..

    It’s not patently wrong. You can commingle assets then and now. People do it all the time. Joint bank accounts, joint ownership of property.

    You’re not an accountant, are you?

    I am. I will not reopen the ssm debate, and going further would require it. So you are correct that there are taxes applicable to non married people which married people can avoid. I would say it’s not and never was completely unavoidable, so therefore not patently wrong. To the extent you are correct, I don’t think changing civil marriage was the answer, I think there were better answers and fixes.

    I think buried in all that evasion is an acknowledgement that the claim that we could have freely commingled assets was false. Yes, the tax was avoidable. I could have declined to support my spouse. Or I could have broken the law. If you know of a third way, Mr. Accountant, to avoid the tax, I’d be all ears.

    (And of course we agree that eliminating the byzantine gift and estate tax system would have been nice, but I was talking about the world as it is, not as I’d like it to be. If we get to live in a world as I’d like it to be, I’ve got a long list of suggestions.)

    For crying out loud Cato. No, no evasion and no admission that the broad claim was false. Apparently you had specific instances of commingling in mind which I did not and vice versa.

    • #377
  18. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Good luck getting them repealed.

    Good luck un-marrying Cato and his husband.

    [Self-redacted.]

    • #378
  19. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Good luck getting them repealed.

    Good luck un-marrying Cato and his husband.

    Wha???

    Why did you quote Randy to make it sound like he was wishing to have ssm repealed, when he was responding to your point that anti-discrimination laws are the problem?

    Am I missing something?

    • #379
  20. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Good luck getting them repealed.

    Good luck un-marrying Cato and his husband.

    ^I regret the above already and [offer my apologies].

    I’m really perplexed with where this leaves us.

    These laws (in their current forms and under current circumstances) are a direct threat to liberty, both in general and in particular against the religious liberty of observant Christians. But, when presented with ready and willing allies on it, you shrug, say it’s hopeless, and go back to lamenting the injustice of the situation.

    • #380
  21. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):
    ^I regret the above already and ask apology.

    From whom?

    • #381
  22. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):
    ^I regret the above already and ask apology.

    From whom?

    Well, specifically, to Randy.

    • #382
  23. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):
    ^I regret the above already and ask apology.

    From whom?

    Well, specifically, to Randy.

    Perhaps your wording is confusing.

    If I ask for an apology, then I am the Wronged Party, rather than the Offender, who should offer apology. So your wording sounds as though you are asking for an apology from Randy rather than offering an apology to Randy.

    Idiomatic preposition stuff; small but meaningful.

    • #383
  24. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):
    ^I regret the above already and ask apology.

    From whom?

    Well, specifically, to Randy.

    Perhaps “make apology” would be clearer?

    • #384
  25. Tom Meyer, Common Citizen Member
    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen
    @tommeyer

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    If I ask for an apology, then I am the Wronged Party, rather than the Offender, who should offer apology. So your wording sounds as though you are asking for an apology from Randy rather than offering an apology to Randy.

    My screw-up. I apologize to Randy.

    • #385
  26. Idahoklahoman Member
    Idahoklahoman
    @Idahoklahoman

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    If I ask for an apology, then I am the Wronged Party, rather than the Offender, who should offer apology. So your wording sounds as though you are asking for an apology from Randy rather than offering an apology to Randy.

    My screw-up. I apologize to Randy.

    Better and shorter. E.B. White smiles.

    • #386
  27. MJBubba Member
    MJBubba
    @

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    I’m really perplexed with where this leaves us.

    These [anti-discrimination] laws (in their current forms and under current circumstances) are a direct threat to liberty, both in general and in particular against the religious liberty of observant Christians. But, when presented with ready and willing allies on it, you shrug, say it’s hopeless, and go back to lamenting the injustice of the situation.

    So far there are only a few “extremists” on our side who have spoken about amending our anti-discrimination laws.  I think every public statement to this effect has been made by someone who is on the SPLC list of hate groups.

    None of the GOP Squishes want to be on record as even listening to these people.

    Ready and willing allies are welcome, and so rare that we didn’t recognize the offer.

    • #387
  28. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    MJBubba (View Comment):
    So far there are only a few “extremists” on our side who have spoken about amending our anti-discrimination laws. I think every public statement to this effect has been made by someone who is on the SPLC list of hate groups.

    That doesn’t narrow it down at all. ; )

    • #388
  29. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    MJBubba (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    I’m really perplexed with where this leaves us.

    These [anti-discrimination] laws (in their current forms and under current circumstances) are a direct threat to liberty, both in general and in particular against the religious liberty of observant Christians. But, when presented with ready and willing allies on it, you shrug, say it’s hopeless, and go back to lamenting the injustice of the situation.

    So far there are only a few “extremists” on our side who have spoken about amending our anti-discrimination laws. I think every public statement to this effect has been made by someone who is on the SPLC list of hate groups.

    None of the GOP Squishes want to be on record as even listening to these people.

    Ready and willing allies are welcome, and so rare that we didn’t recognize the offer.

    I support repealing those laws.  I understand your religious liberty concerns and I sympathize with them, but they are just one special case of the broader problem – that anti-discrimination laws have turned into an all purpose cudgel that permits federal, state and local civil rights bureaucracies to micro-manage everyone’s commercial activities.

    • #389
  30. MJBubba Member
    MJBubba
    @

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    MJBubba (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Tom Meyer, Common Citizen (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    I’m really perplexed with where this leaves us.

    These [anti-discrimination] laws (in their current forms and under current circumstances) are a direct threat to liberty, both in general and in particular against the religious liberty of observant Christians. But, when presented with ready and willing allies on it, you shrug, say it’s hopeless, and go back to lamenting the injustice of the situation.

    So far there are only a few “extremists” on our side who have spoken about amending our anti-discrimination laws. I think every public statement to this effect has been made by someone who is on the SPLC list of hate groups.

    None of the GOP Squishes want to be on record as even listening to these people.

    Ready and willing allies are welcome, and so rare that we didn’t recognize the offer.

    I support repealing those laws. I understand your religious liberty concerns and I sympathize with them, but they are just one special case of the broader problem – that anti-discrimination laws have turned into an all purpose cudgel that permits federal, state and local civil rights bureaucracies to micro-manage everyone’s commercial activities.

    Thank you very much, Cato R.

    Yes; if we fight for Christian bakers and florists on the basis of their First Amendment right to the Free Exercise of their Religion, then we leave on the table their First Amendment right to freely Associate with others as they choose.

    We are facing a First Amendment crisis.  Individual liberties are in peril.

    We need all the ready and willing allies we can find.

     

    • #390
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