What Is the Problem with a Graven Image?

 

Today, the Ninth of Av in the Jewish Calendar, we read in the Torah that G-d’s anger is kindled when we do two things: make a graven image, and do evil.

“Doing evil” seems easy enough to understand – G-d wants us to do good. It is not hard to see why acts of kindness and holiness are what we need in order to improve the world, to make the most of our lives.

But why are graven images – idols – such a problem? Of all things we can do or make, why is this one singled out?

Man is insecure. There are many powerful forces beyond our control and our understanding. These forces seem to hold our lives in their hands, and they are fundamental forces like wind and rain and sea and volcano and sun. In turn, they may be influenced or manage by what might be called “higher order gods” – Luck, or Fate, or any of a number of named deities in the Greek, Norse or other pantheons.

In a primitive world, people simply worshipped the natural force itself. Slightly more advanced societies named deities as being in charge of their respective natural component. But it really all amounted to a cargo cult of sorts: paying off the appropriate deity by means of sacrifice and suffering would do the trick.

Note that idol worship was tightly connected to doing evil: buying off the deity cost, in sacrificed foodstuffs and children and virgins, not to mention the hearts of vanquished enemies. And if the god was satisfied, then he did not care what men did between them. Might made right. Once the volcano deity got his virgin, the powerful people in the village could go back to whatever it is they liked doing, which usually involved being unkind (to say the least) to others.

This all seems so deliciously unconnected from our modern, technologically advanced world. After all, even the words “graven image,” and the concept of idol worship, sound like a quaint notion from an ancient past. But think about it: are people today really so secure about the Big Bad World that they won’t seek out an idol?

Think, for example, about superheroes in film and television. As religion fades, superheroes have come back into fashion. Some of them (Ironman or Batman) are ordinary men who harness their ambition to become extraordinary. But most have magical powers that make them better than mere mortals. Deities from ancient pagan worlds are coming back as superheroes: Thor and Loki and others.

Why are we attracted to superheroes? For the same reason the ancients worshipped idols: Superman gives us an alternative to taking responsibility for our own world. Who are we to change the world, when there are superheroes out there who are so much more capable than a mere mortal? It is all an excuse for passivity, for choosing to become a cheerleader instead of taking the field.

Beyond the silver screen we also have no shortage of idols. Chief among them is Gaia herself. Just as with ancient deities, she has many names: Mother Earth, Nature, Sustainability, The Planet, etc. And Gaia is mad. Through her priests, scientists, she threatens apocalypse and ruin, hurricanes and climate change and global warming and droughts and ozone holes. Independence from her clutches is wrong, so we are told that everything mankind does to improve the world is in turn evil, and sure to lead to our destruction. Thus we are supposed to condemn GMOs and effective pesticides and herbicides, and ban mysterious chemicals that somehow supposedly lead to reduced sperm counts. Even air conditioning and modern medicine are clearly wrong, and only serve to anger The Planet.

We placate Mother Earth’s appetites by sacrificing our lawns by not watering them, by sorting our trash into different piles, by spending more money for “organic” produce. We buy Toyota Piouses, and mount money-losing solar arrays on the shady street-side of the house so that everyone can see them. We pass endless regulations that make life more difficult, all for the sake of The Environment. Best of all, we get to signal our greater piety by sacrificing others. Just as liberals are in favor of raising taxes on Other People, so, too, Earth-Worship involves endless rounds of Making Other People Suffer.

Idols come in many shapes and sizes, of course. We worship Authorities and Experts, people who Know Better, by virtue of being Authorities and Experts and Scientists. Best of all, of course, are Experts in Government. Government, of course, has the power to coerce, which means it has the power to not merely convince us that they are right, but to shortcut the whole sticky persuasion thing and force us to accept their authority.

It is government that represents the worst combination of Gaia and superheroes and coercive scientists. Government does not have to convince people. It has the power to override the objections of us great unwashed idiots who are not convinced by the rhetorical flourishes and apocalyptic nonsense.

So when parents want to try to treat their son who suffers from an illness, government can step in and save the day, making sure, through endless processes and experts and authorities, that the child will surely die. And it will be for Charlie Gard’s own good, don’cha know.

It all comes together in the same problem: people who do not want to take responsibility for their own lives need to make themselves small, need to make excuses for why they have not personally tried to fix the world. So they vote for liberals, they drive their Prius to shop at Whole Foods, they believe in experts and other superheroes, and they expect government to solve every problem.

Death is not the enemy. Death comes to all of us, sooner or later. The enemy is a life that is not well lived, a life in which we avoid risk because we are playing it safe – only to die in the end anyway.

And here it comes full circle. The problem with graven images are they are external, shared images, but the spiritual path for each person must, in Judaism, be internal. Each person has their own unique path, with a conversation – words – at the heart of that internal quest. The Torah has no illustrations, and the prophets never painted. Words engage with each person’s soul,

It is words – the spoken word – that is at the heart of the Torah. Words talk to the soul, not, as do graphics, to the eyes. People perceive the same words differently, each engaging with their own imagination to give the words life.

Idol-worship represents wasted opportunity for individual development. A graven image externalizes responsibility.

May we all make the most of our time on this earth, to take personal responsibility and grow, to create and do good.

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  1. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    iWe (View Comment):
    I see death as a motivator for being productive and good – that is why G-d limits lifespan in the Torah. [….]

    In Genesis, death is a consequence of sin; or of disobedience, if one doesn’t equate the two. Death was not part of the original state of Man.

    Did God wish Adam and Eve to disobey Him? Or did He create them knowing they would do so and yet many of their descendants would return to Him?

    As Christians understand it, death is a condition of sin which along with sin will be abolished on the day of judgment, returning souls who have chosen the Creator’s love to humanity’s intended state of creative activity in loving trust of Him.

    Like death, the toil of labor occurs only after Adam’s sin. He engaged in tasks before this, such as the naming of animals, but effort and challenge needn’t be taxing. Like virtuosos acting “in the zone”, Heaven is harmony of ability and spontaneous activity in joy and in concert with design.

    • #31
  2. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    iWe: The problem with graven images are they are external, shared images, but the spiritual path for each person must, in Judaism, be internal. Each person has their own unique path, with a conversation – words – at the heart of that internal quest. The Torah has no illustrations, and the prophets never painted. Words engage with each person’s soul,

    iWe: Idol-worship represents wasted opportunity for individual development. A graven image externalizes responsibility.

    iWe, I had to read this a couple of times over a couple of days.  I think I mostly get it, but maybe not.

    As a Catholic, I’m used to hearing our appeals to Angels and Saints termed idolatry.  As a young man, I didn’t even really think about it much; I was a military man, if God set up a chain of command, made sense to me.  Later, I began to see that each Angel and Saint wasn’t prayed to, it was a prayer asking that Angel or Saint to best convey that prayer that aligned with that A/S’s aspect.  The prayers are not to Angels and Saints, nor are they needed to convey our prayers and meditation. Instead they are focal points, which help us home in on exactly what we are praying for, and–hopefully–why.

    A graven image can be the subject/target of prayers, which is idolatry, which I think is more serious than “wasted opportunity for individual development.”  It’s worshiping another god.  But, if the graven image (as with an Angel or a Saint) is a focal point, a start point for a plea to or meditation of the Big Guy, I can’t see it as an externalization of responsibility.  I see its potential as a launch point for understanding personal responsibility, a launch point for beginning a meditation of what the Big Guy instead of what the individual wants.  A spiritual…dewey decimal system to help us get dialed in to what’s important.

    • #32
  3. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Idolatry as I understand it is about priorities. Anything or anyone can become an idol if we prioritize that thing, person, or activity before God.

    A political system or constitution can become an idol. Theology can become an idol (when it ceases to be for learning about God). One’s spouse or children can become idols. No one matters more than God. If we love Him well, we consequently serve all other goods well.

    The worst idols are those which are not even good in themselves. Corruption itself, and not only corrupted things, can be wrongly adored.

    To focus on the created to neglect of the Creator is a universal failing of mankind. We all struggle against it.

    • #33
  4. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Idolatry as I understand it is about priorities. Anything or anyone can become an idol if we prioritize that thing, person, or activity before God.

    I do not think the Torah shares this approach. For example, if we appreciate that each person is ensouled by the divine, then loving others is a way of loving G-d.

    Loving one’s wife can’t be idolatrous; the Torah makes it abundantly clear that marriage is necessary for the High Priest. Only by trying to understand people who are very different from ourselves can we possibly have a chance to understand G-d.

    A political system or constitution can become an idol. Theology can become an idol (when it ceases to be for learning about God). One’s spouse or children can become idols. No one matters more than God. If we love Him well, we consequently serve all other goods well.

    For Jews, the commandments offer the pathway to a full relationship with G-d. Each person has their own approach, their own inclinations and challenges, their own path to find. One can choose to serve by doting on one’s spouse, or creating beautiful art, or by pursuing liberty for mankind. None of these, to my reading of the Torah, are idolatrous in the least.

    The worst idols are those which are not even good in themselves. Corruption itself, and not only corrupted things, can be wrongly adored.

    I do not believe anything is good or evil in itself. Everything can be used for good or ill. It is our choices that decide whether sex or wine or Down’s syndrome or a gun are good or evil.

    To focus on the created to neglect of the Creator is a universal failing of mankind. We all struggle against it.

    I agree that having a spiritual relationship is a wonderful thing. My reading of the Torah is that spiritual things are achieved through physical ones. This is, after all, what ritual helps to achieve. Things that are created can all serve to enable and enhance our relationship with G-d.

     

    • #34
  5. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    As a Catholic, I’m used to hearing our appeals to Angels and Saints termed idolatry. … Later, I began to see that each Angel and Saint wasn’t prayed to, it was a prayer asking that Angel or Saint to best convey that prayer that aligned with that A/S’s aspect. The prayers are not to Angels and Saints, nor are they needed to convey our prayers and meditation. Instead they are focal points, which help us home in on exactly what we are praying for, and–hopefully–why.

    Many (most) Jews feel the same way about great sages and their resting places – it is an inspiration, and a potential conveyance.

    I very much am not in accord with this approach: the Torah does not tell us where Moshe was buried precisely because visiting his grave would too easily become idolatry.

    A graven image can be the subject/target of prayers, which is idolatry, which I think is more serious than “wasted opportunity for individual development.” It’s worshiping another god.

    It is both. As a first pass, G-d is angry with those who compare G-d to a pagan deity, one who can be “bought off” and who can be defined by a finite physical world. G-d is infinite, so defining Him in physical terms is inherently idolatrous.

    But, if the graven image (as with an Angel or a Saint) is a focal point, a start point for a plea to or meditation of the Big Guy, I can’t see it as an externalization of responsibility. I see its potential as a launch point for understanding personal responsibility, a launch point for beginning a meditation of what the Big Guy instead of what the individual wants. A spiritual…dewey decimal system to help us get dialed in to what’s important.

    Most observant Jews agree with you. I do not; I do not think anyone has a superior claim to a divine connection, because every person has a soul, and must seek and grow their own, unique relationship. But I understand that to most people, this proximity to G-d is terrifying. It is much easier to believe in a chain of command.

    • #35
  6. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Aaron Miller

    iWe (View Comment):
    I see death as a motivator for being productive and good – that is why G-d limits lifespan in the Torah. [….]

    In Genesis, death is a consequence of sin; or of disobedience, if one doesn’t equate the two. Death was not part of the original state of Man.

    Gen. 6:3  Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, because he is flesh; his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

    It comes immediately after man acts in an evil manner. So the lifespan limit does not happen in the Garden of Eden – it is afterward, based on our subsequent behavior. Specifically, G-d limits our lifespan because we take women. Respecting women is a way to respect G-d. Shortened lifespan serves to force us to treat women better.

    • #36
  7. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Like death, the toil of labor occurs only after Adam’s sin. He engaged in tasks before this, such as the naming of animals, but effort and challenge needn’t be taxing. Like virtuosos acting “in the zone”, Heaven is harmony of ability and spontaneous activity in joy and in concert with design.

    This is a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity. The Torah tells us that we are full partners with G-d, entrusted and charged with completing the world. That is,  necessarily, a highly dynamic state, incompatible with a vision of harmony.

    Judaism thrives on “arguments for the sake of Heaven.” Arguments, not harmony, are how we seek truth.  And we believe that the angels do not lead us – they echo what we do. As such, heaven is a pretty wild and crazy place.

    Work, like death, is not the enemy. It is a path to improving ourselves, our world, and our relationship with G-d.

    • #37
  8. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    iWe (View Comment):
    if we appreciate that each person is ensouled by the divine, then loving others is a way of loving G-d.

    Loving one’s wife can’t be idolatrous [….]

    Certainly, we love God by loving our fellow creations, both human and non-human. But if one prioritizes lesser beings (than God) and neglects the need of grace, then those devotions become confused and hurtful. By growing closer to our Creator, we better understand our own design and how to love. By devoting ourselves to humanity’s common purpose (to know and love God), we are better able to discern and/or choose our individual purposes.

    This is like so many situations in faith, like how in serving others we serve ourselves. We look at of one end of the formula in isolation, but both are always involved.

    Popular fiction provides many examples of idolatry in marriage. A villain or some natural evil (disease, for example) threatens one’s spouse or child, and the loving character so prioritizes that relationship over all others that he descends into hideous acts to protect the family. Of course, there are situations in which harm is not evil (ex: killing an attacker in self-defense). But when one harms innocents to protect or enrich one’s loved ones, that person’s adoration of another has corrupted his understanding of love and his relationship with the Lord. A more ordinary example is to conduct business in ways that advantage one’s family but do injustice to others.

    The closer one’s life accords with God’s will and the intended natures of His creations, the better one is able to love each person without injury to others.

    When Abraham/Abraam prepared his own son for sacrifice at the Lord’s command, he honored his family. Because God is love, that act of total surrender was appreciated without being demanded in full. Abraham’s faith was validated and all generations since have learned from it. Even the sacrificial son was blessed by the father’s prioritization of God’s will.

    • #38
  9. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    iWe (View Comment):
    Most observant Jews agree with you. I do not; I do not think anyone has a superior claim to a divine connection, because every person has a soul, and must seek and grow their own, unique relationship. But I understand that to most people, this proximity to G-d is terrifying. It is much easier to believe in a chain of command.

    Whup.  I am not talking about anyone having superior claims to a divine connection.  I’m talking about a talisman (graven image) from which one starts when one ponders his relationship with the Big Guy.  One stops, considers the graven image, and uses that image as a way to quiet the mind and bring it to a place where contemplation of the divine is possible, deep, and shrived of ego.

    This example is going to suck, ’cause I know doodley and squat about Judaism, so go with the question and not the dogma: Could one consider a menorah a graven image?  It is a physical, visual representation that sets the stage for contemplating the Big Guy.

    • #39
  10. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    iWe, I’d be interested in some later post whether or not humility is a virtue in your theology; if so, how it is understood.

    I say this not for any accusation of arrogance, but rather because industry seems to be a central virtue in your theology, if I understand correctly. If Jews are challenged to continue the Creator’s works and construct a wonderful world, then productivity toward that end seems pivotal.

    • #40
  11. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    iWe (View Comment):
    As a first pass, G-d is angry with those who compare G-d to a pagan deity, one who can be “bought off” and who can be defined by a finite physical world. G-d is infinite, so defining Him in physical terms is inherently idolatrous.

    Yet both Jews and Christians have important concepts of necessary sacrificial acts — payments of sort. As I recall, you have written before about how the regular sacrifice of animals ended because of the destruction of the Temple, rather than some realization that the practice was foolish.

    We Christians ceased animal sacrifice because we understand Jesus as “the Lamb of God” — that is, the perfect and enduring sacrifice to replace all others, made on our behalf by God Himself.

    The idea behind both is that justice demands homage from created to Creator, as well as contrition from penitent sinners. You would probably adjust that, but there’s common ground there somewhere. Justice involves “payments” of sorts. But a loving relationship is never just a sum of payments and services.

    • #41
  12. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    iWe (View Comment):

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    As a Catholic, I’m used to hearing our appeals to Angels and Saints termed idolatry. … Later, I began to see that each Angel and Saint wasn’t prayed to, it was a prayer asking that Angel or Saint to best convey that prayer that aligned with that A/S’s aspect. The prayers are not to Angels and Saints, nor are they needed to convey our prayers and meditation. Instead they are focal points, which help us home in on exactly what we are praying for, and–hopefully–why.

    Many (most) Jews feel the same way about great sages and their resting places – it is an inspiration, and a potential conveyance.

    I very much am not in accord with this approach: the Torah does not tell us where Moshe was buried precisely because visiting his grave would too easily become idolatry.

    A graven image can be the subject/target of prayers, which is idolatry, which I think is more serious than “wasted opportunity for individual development.” It’s worshiping another god.

    It is both. As a first pass, G-d is angry with those who compare G-d to a pagan deity, one who can be “bought off” and who can be defined by a finite physical world. G-d is infinite, so defining Him in physical terms is inherently idolatrous.

    But, if the graven image (as with an Angel or a Saint) is a focal point, a start point for a plea to or meditation of the Big Guy, I can’t see it as an externalization of responsibility. I see its potential as a launch point for understanding personal responsibility, a launch point for beginning a meditation of what the Big Guy instead of what the individual wants. A spiritual…dewey decimal system to help us get dialed in to what’s important.

    Most observant Jews agree with you. I do not; I do not think anyone has a superior claim to a divine connection, because every person has a soul, and must seek and grow their own, unique relationship. But I understand that to most people, this proximity to G-d is terrifying. It is much easier to believe in a chain of command.

    Those that the Catholic church – and related communities – honor as saints would be the first to protest this perceived superiority.  They are examples worthy of emulation – and companions in prayer.  Particularly when their life circumstances mirror our own – battle-buddies, one might say.  They are also particularly helpful in forming a sort of minyan  of mind and heart when one cannot join the community at prayer.  :-)

    • #42
  13. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    But if one prioritizes lesser beings (than God) and neglects the need of grace,

    Another difference between us. Jews don’t have a concept of grace.

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    By devoting ourselves to humanity’s common purpose (to know and love God), we are better able to discern and/or choose our individual purposes.

    I do not believe this is our common purpose – at least not how the Torah puts it. A core commandment is to “be holy”, and the Torah tells us many ways in which we can do it.

    “Love your brother like yourself” is in fact the verse that is the exact middle of the Torah. That tells me that humanity’s main purpose is to elevate the world around us, other people. Not to know and love G-d (though those are good things, too).

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    A more ordinary example is to conduct business in ways that advantage one’s family but do injustice to others.

    This is all well trod ground. Of course getting one’s priorities wrong is not a good thing – not at all. But it is not at all the same as somehow loving one’s wife in an idolatrous manner.

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    The closer one’s life accords with God’s will

    Jews give the individual much more credit. G-d gave us Free Will, and we can express it in many ways. There is not just one way that G-d wants any one person to be, and we believe that there are many different possible pathways that a person can take.

    and the intended natures of His creations,

    Ah. I think the world was created to spur us to OUR creations. Mankind’s creations are integral to holiness, to truly imitating G-d.

     

    • #43
  14. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    I’m talking about a talisman (graven image) from which one starts when one ponders his relationship with the Big Guy. One stops, considers the graven image, and uses that image as a way to quiet the mind and bring it to a place where contemplation of the divine is possible, deep, and shrived of ego.

    For Jews, it is about closing one’s eyes, and praying, listening for that “still, small voice.” G-d speaks to us in words, not in images.

    • #44
  15. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    Could one consider a menorah a graven image? It is a physical, visual representation that sets the stage for contemplating the Big Guy.

    No. The Menorah represents light, and the burning bush, an embodiment of holiness. It is an ideal, but one without any ensoulment, any personality. A Torah scroll, on the other hand, is treated like a person. But it only comes alive when it is read out loud; it is the hearing that unlocks G-d’s intentions. The central action in Judaism (“shma”) is to hear/weigh/consider – which is not the same as obeying, and a very far cry from seeing.

    “Hear, Oh Israel.”

    • #45
  16. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    iWe, I’d be interested in some later post whether or not humility is a virtue in your theology; if so, how it is understood.

    I have written on it at least twice. Perhaps you can find the original, where I make the argument from the Torah itself. Here is a more recent one.

    …  industry seems to be a central virtue in your theology, if I understand correctly. If Jews are challenged to continue the Creator’s works and construct a wonderful world, then productivity toward that end seems pivotal.

    You nailed it.

     

    • #46
  17. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Yet both Jews and Christians have important concepts of necessary sacrificial acts — payments of sort.

    The translation of the word “sacrifice” actually means “come closer.” The purpose of a sacrifice was not payment. It was consideration, thoughtfulness, introspection: connection. This is why the prophets all rail against Jews bringing sacrifices without improving their deeds. We hear it again and again: lovingkindness is better than sacrifices.

    • #47
  18. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    bring it to a place where contemplation of the divine is possible, deep, and shrived of ego.

    For me, partnership means we engage with G-d. We are not supposed to reduce our ego. We are supposed to harness our energies, work with G-d, and grow.

    • #48
  19. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    iWe (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    But if one prioritizes lesser beings (than God) and neglects the need of grace,

    Another difference between us. Jews don’t have a concept of grace.

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    By devoting ourselves to humanity’s common purpose (to know and love God), we are better able to discern and/or choose our individual purposes.

    I do not believe this is our common purpose – at least not how the Torah puts it. A core commandment is to “be holy”, and the Torah tells us many ways in which we can do it.

    “Love your brother like yourself” is in fact the verse that is the exact middle of the Torah. That tells me that humanity’s main purpose is to elevate the world around us, other people. Not to know and love G-d (though those are good things, too).

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    A more ordinary example is to conduct business in ways that advantage one’s family but do injustice to others.

    This is all well trod ground. Of course getting one’s priorities wrong is not a good thing – not at all. But it is not at all the same as somehow loving one’s wife in an idolatrous manner.

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    The closer one’s life accords with God’s will

    Jews give the individual much more credit. G-d gave us Free Will, and we can express it in many ways. There is not just one way that G-d wants any one person to be, and we believe that there are many different possible pathways that a person can take.

    and the intended natures of His creations,

    Ah. I think the world was created to spur us to OUR creations. Mankind’s creations are integral to holiness, to truly imitating G-d.

    Many Christians don’t embrace the gift of free will fully, perhaps fearing the responsibility it entails.  “Jesus, take the wheel.” passivity  might seem easier, but daily renewal of one’s fundamental option *for* G-d makes it a much more engaged – and enjoyable – relationship.  Yes, resting in the Presence is at times needed; asking for and awaiting guidance is vital as part of being “coworkers with the Truth” in our daily lives; helping to bring about “a place where righteousness will be at home.”

    • #49
  20. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    Most observant Jews agree with you. I do not; I do not think anyone has a superior claim to a divine connection, because every person has a soul, and must seek and grow their own, unique relationship. But I understand that to most people, this proximity to G-d is terrifying. It is much easier to believe in a chain of command.

    Whup. I am not talking about anyone having superior claims to a divine connection. I’m talking about a talisman (graven image) from which one starts when one ponders his relationship with the Big Guy. One stops, considers the graven image, and uses that image as a way to quiet the mind and bring it to a place where contemplation of the divine is possible, deep, and shrived of ego.

    This example is going to suck, ’cause I know doodley and squat about Judaism, so go with the question and not the dogma: Could one consider a menorah a graven image? It is a physical, visual representation that sets the stage for contemplating the Big Guy.

    Boss, deep contemplation need not – in a Christian sense – involve being shorn of a sense of self. It may require a willingness to place oneself in the Presence without a prior agenda, a quieting of thought. Welcoming G-d into the “cave of the heart” may actually accentuate one’s sense of being most fully oneself: a beloved, unique and unrepeatable child of His. It differs from techniques associated with various schools of martial arts, etc. which do focus on lessening the involvement of the ego/conscious mind…

    Whew! Stand down, Panda, ’nuff said. :-D

     

    • #50
  21. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    iWe (View Comment):
    Jews give the individual much more credit. G-d gave us Free Will, and we can express it in many ways. There is not just one way that G-d wants any one person to be, and we believe that there are many different possible pathways that a person can take.

    Love this.

    • #51
  22. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Dean Murphy (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Dean Murphy (View Comment):
    How do you view the Iconicism of Christianity?

    God is the only one left out, there are Icons of Christ, Mary, the Saints… Worship is reserved for God, but reverence and adoration are given to the others.

    Is it Idolatry?

    We Christians believe that Christ is God – He is emphatically not in the same category as the saints.

    That begs the question then. How is a venerated and worshiped image of Christ not an Idol?

    Please know, I don’t mean to demean anyone’s faith. I’m truly curious. I’m struggling with my own faith just now, and someone finding God at the feet of a statue of Christ raises my question.

    It is an idol. That doesn’t necessarily  mean that anyone involved in a denomination that uses it is not genuinely Christian. I suspect in most cases they would say they aren’t worshiping or even venerating the statue, which makes it more difficult to categorize.

    The proper way to worship can be a difficult subject even within a congregation.

    • #52
  23. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Dean Murphy (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Dean Murphy (View Comment):That begs the question then. How is a venerated and worshiped image of Christ not an Idol?

    Please know, I don’t mean to demean anyone’s faith. I’m truly curious. I’m struggling with my own faith just now, and someone finding God at the feet of a statue of Christ raises my question.B

    Because one isn’t worshipping the thing made of plaster, wood, or paint, one is worshipping that which the plaster, wood or paint depicts. It’s like looking fondly at a photo of a loved one: you don’t have fondness for the paper and the ink, you have fondness for the person pictured, which the photo brings to your mind.

    Good point.

    It misses the lesson of the golden calf. Were they really worshiping a statue of a calf and giving that statue credit for freeing them from Egypt or did they make the idol to represent the one who actually did bring them out of Egypt? It was this attempt to represent God with a statue that was rebuked

    The Bible does ridicule idol worshippers as worshipping things that are made, but that is hyperbole. Pagans don’t think their dieties are just statues. The idols only represent them.

    • #53
  24. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):
    Most observant Jews agree with you. I do not; I do not think anyone has a superior claim to a divine connection, because every person has a soul, and must seek and grow their own, unique relationship. But I understand that to most people, this proximity to G-d is terrifying. It is much easier to believe in a chain of command.

    Whup. I am not talking about anyone having superior claims to a divine connection. I’m talking about a talisman (graven image) from which one starts when one ponders his relationship with the Big Guy. One stops, considers the graven image, and uses that image as a way to quiet the mind and bring it to a place where contemplation of the divine is possible, deep, and shrived of ego.

    This example is going to suck, ’cause I know doodley and squat about Judaism, so go with the question and not the dogma: Could one consider a menorah a graven image? It is a physical, visual representation that sets the stage for contemplating the Big Guy.

    None of the items in the tabernacle or temple are physical representations of God. The Ark is also known as the Mercy Seat. It represents the throne in heaven.

    There are biblical examples. The golden calf at Sinai and the later golden calfs and high places in the northern kingdom were set up with the intention of worshiping the true God, but they didn’t do it his way. At Sinai, I would say the primary motive was impatience. In the northern kingdom the kings didn’t want their people traveling to Jerusalem in the southern kingdom. They set up alternatives, which they were not supposed to do.

    • #54
  25. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    I still have to say that I could not disagree more with your view of death.   Death is my greatest enemy, and I long to see it broken and relegated to the past.

    • #55
  26. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):
    I still have to say that I could not disagree more with your view of death. Death is my greatest enemy, and I long to see it broken and relegated to the past.

    @omegapaladin, disagree.  Death should not be a an enemy, nor should it be a friend.

    Everyone dies.  I’ll die.  You’ll die.  Question is, you going to be ready?

    • #56
  27. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):
    I still have to say that I could not disagree more with your view of death. Death is my greatest enemy, and I long to see it broken and relegated to the past.

    @omegapaladin, disagree. Death should not be a an enemy, nor should it be a friend.

    Everyone dies. I’ll die. You’ll die. Question is, you going to be ready?

    St. Athanasius, in a book reflecting on his brother’s death, describes life (at a certain point, differing for everyone) as an encounter with wretchedness, and asserts that G-d, in His love for humanity “prescribed death as a remedy”.  An interesting concept in some quarters, it seems.

    • #57
  28. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    I think if a person wants to “defy death,” one can do that by staying healthy, eating right, exercising, and overall staying active. But eventually, as @bossmongo says, we’re all going to die. Pre-occupation with fighting it, rather than enjoying each moment that life offers us, is not helpful to anyone and frankly is a waste of time.

    • #58
  29. MJBubba Member
    MJBubba
    @

    Boss Mongo (View Comment):
    Could one consider a menorah a graven image? It is a physical, visual representation that sets the stage for contemplating the Big Guy.

    The menorah is just a lampstand.  It was one of very few furnishings that was in the Tabernacle.  Of course a light source was needed, but the Tabernacle was the dwelling place of G-d.

    G-d anticipated the need, and described the lampstand He wanted, and then He picked out two guys to supervise its construction, and told Moses that He was giving visions to Bezalel and Oholiab so they would be sure of what G-d wanted for the lampstand.

    See Exodus Chapter 25, beginning at verse 31 for G-d’s description of the lampstand.  See Exodus Chapter 31, beginning at verse 1 for G-d’s instruction to Moses that Bezalel and Oholiab had been selected to supervise construction of the Tabernacle furnishings.

    The only thing that makes the lampstand special is that it was a furnishing in the Tabernacle.  Since it was distinctive, it became a symbol of the Temple, but there is no indication that any Jews or Christians anywhere ever considered the menorah as an object of worship or devotion.  Depictions of the menorah are venerated as poignant reminders of the Temple.

    Copies were made of the menorah; there were seven of them in Solomon’s Temple.

    The menorahs were taken by the Babylonians about a thousand years after the first one was made for the Tabernacle.  After the Persians conquered Babylon, King Cyrus gave the menorahs back to Nehemiah to furnish the rebuilt Temple.   Several were carried off by Seleucid Syrians during the Maccabean wars.  When the Temple was destroyed, the Romans carried the remaining menorah as a trophy to Rome.

    After Constantine converted to Christianity, his mother St. Helena asked that the menorah be brought to Byzantium (later renamed Constantinople, and subsequently renamed Istanbul), because she wanted to put it in the church she had ordered to be built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.  However, it is lost to history at that point.  It is not known whether it ever actually made it to St. Helena.  If it did, whether it was in Jerusalem or Constantinople, it ended up in Muslim hands.

    • #59
  30. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    I think if a person wants to “defy death,” one can do that by staying healthy, eating right, exercising, and overall staying active. But eventually, as @bossmongo says, we’re all going to die. Pre-occupation with fighting it, rather than enjoying each moment that life offers us, is not helpful to anyone and frankly is a waste of time.

    Give biomedical science time, and we will be able to make death more avoidable.

    Further, I am a Christian, not a Jew.  In our part of the Good Book, death is defanged and broken by the power of Jesus Christ.  Everyone who died is coming back, and will stay alive forever.

    When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    Where, O death, is your victory?

    Where, O death, is your sting? 

    1 Corinthians 15:54-5, NIV

    So I am confident I will see my enemy crushed and humiliated eventually.

    The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26, NIV

     

    • #60
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