Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
“I don’t forgive you, Jonah Goldberg,…”
“…because there is nothing to forgive.”
Jonah’s column today addresses whether a NeverTrumper needs to be forgiven. He doesn’t think so, and I agree. I voted for Trump, he didn’t. Trump won; thank G-d given the choice we had.
I don’t think Trump hung the moon and I don’t expect him to restore limited government. I do expect him to make mistakes, and I am hoping those mistakes are survivable. I do think we will be better able to assess what we will get on the 101st day of his administration than we are now. We are sitting at the starting line with engines revving and imagining how it will be. No one really knows.
2017 could be a really weird year. The one thing I am counting on is that Trump is determined to be consequential. I want that, too, because the headwinds from Democrats, academia, media, and the useful idiots and paid activists is going to be fierce. So at a level I think the Trump “true believers” (of which I am not one) will have an important role to play in sustaining the Trump momentum.
Jonah has legitimate fears about Donald Trump:
What I have chiefly in mind is that rich nexus of unrestrained ego, impoverished impulse control, and contempt for policy due diligence. I firmly and passionately believe that character is destiny. From his reported refusal to accept daily intelligence briefings to his freelancing every issue under the sun on Twitter — including, most recently, nuclear-arms policy — Trump’s blasé attitude troubles me deeply, just as it did during the campaign.
The sad truth is that people of sterling character rarely run for President, much less win. At a minimum they all must have egos that blind them to some manifest flaws. But as history has taught us this does not disqualify them from being heroes.
I am hopeful, but I am not expecting it to be pretty. As Jonah is a culture buff I commend to him the movie The Dirty Dozen. We need to secure the border, secure the Court, and re-establish the rule of law. But pocketbook issues will “trump” fidelity to constitutional reformation. So the Trump administration will not be a paragon of federalism and the Commerce Clause will continue to be abused. Conservatives will continue their sojourn in the wilderness, but hopefully will remain closer to the Promised Land. Under Hillary they would have been driven into the Red Sea.
Published in General
Retraction: Jaimie you didn’t say that.But you quoted Umbra and piled on with a bunch of links as though that was a rebuttal.
I quoted you and I said “these are the facts”. Some supported your position. Some supported Umbras.
I know NTers who could have done a lot more to attack Trump, and didn’t.
Maybe. An advisor is someone I trust, I don’t have to agree with her. I might like another perspective from someone I trust implicitly. While I do have my doubts and quibbles, her family plan is not a government giveaway, it’s a tax break for working families. It’s not an entitlement, and it incentives families. Bigger families is a good thing. Better than importing people from other countries, no?
And oh, by the way, Ivanka isn’t a “leftist”. This is one of our fundamental disputes here between the Nevers and the Evers. Maybe you are just being casual with your words, or maybe you don’t know the difference between a liberal and a leftist. I find it often misused by Nevers, which tells me they don’t know what the threat is, or the nature of it. This is why they didn’t see Hillary as such a threat to America and believed they could survive (or America could survive) her. And that’s why I can’t take them seriously.
They apparently have come to see you and me as a hybrid entity.
And apparently they would rather nitpick the timeline rather than dispute Trump’s long history of support for Democrat candidates and causes. Probably because they can’t.
Those are a few links. Not “the facts”. You quoted Umbra and me, not just me. The statement, ” Donald Trump was a lifelong Democrat until about two years ago..” is false. You allowed it to pass. But you didn’t say it and hence I retreated it. Do you agree or disagree? We still don’t know. You quoted it without any comment, so the default assumption is you agree.
You said he was a “lifelong Democrat” until about “two years ago”. That’s false.
That’s not nitpicking timelines, that’s challenging your veracity/knowledge of facts. Deal with it.
Nitpicking the timeline might have value, but only in an historical investigation and not in the heated fashion we are seeing today.
The primary point is that Trump’s past support for Democrat fundraisers in NYC did nothing to make him Worse Than Hillary.
A big real-estate developer making big contributions to the local political machine’s top guns is entirely forgiveable. In fact, I think it would be unavoidable.
What y’all missed, and the education we are trying to help you with, is how much ordinary conservative voters came to fear the Democrat Party and fear Mrs. Clinton.
I have no affirmative duty to address every comment you take issue with on this site. I presented links to the facts of Trump’s donations and party affiliation. Either dispute the veracity of those facts or move on. Quit it with the mind reading and anger.
It is not totally out of line to associate absolute opposition to Trump as supporting Hillary, is it? I mean, the winner was going to be Hillary or Trump. You really can’t credibly deny that, can you? Did any other candidate win one single electoral vote?
Then if you spent your time opposing Trump, you were helping Hillary, even if you never overtly supported her.
But lets concentrate on Trump’s past support of Democrat candidates. Because that is MORE relevant than the assistance of Hillary in THIS election?
If Trumps past support of Democrats disqualifies him, NT’s recent support of Hillary does more so. How do you square THAT circle?
NT’s did not support Hillary.
Trump gave her lots and lots of money.
And you’ve missed what drove most of the opposition from the NeverTrump right.
Yes, no matter how distasteful it may be for you to admit it, they did. They supported ‘anyone but Trump’. and that anyone was only one candidate. Hillary.
Then why include the false info in your quote?
No, I think you do this deliberately. Why else? If you purport to tell me what the “facts” are, while allowing falsehoods to go unaddressed in your quotation, then clearly you are no arbiter of facts and have no right to lecture.
Wrong again.
I quoted the entire comment our of laziness and so people had context. Honestly Franco you seem hell bent on creating rancor when none needs to exist. This is a discussion not your personal vendetta.
The fact that these people are still harping on this one has me absolutely gobsmacked. They really can’t see the difference between a private citizen, a businessman who has to get permits and grease all kinds of palms to, you know, actually get things done, like built, and he is forever tainted and maligned as a “Democrat”. Then they trot around falsehoods about allegiances.
Hey Jamie and Umbra, if you are such Republican stalwarts who suspect loyalty based on technical party affiliations and small political donations over basic things like, er, the guy who is running against Hillary Clinton, endorsed by Mike Pence and Jeff Sessions, and brutally attacked by leftist (real leftist) Democrats, good luck!
I’m merely reporting as I see it. Just because I’m calling you out on facts does not make this a vendetta….or vitriol. It’s in your imagination.
What facts that I have presented are suspect?
Well, isn’t it ironic that you presume to lecture me about “facts” while quoting someone who claims DJT was a Democrat 2 years ago. So where were your fact checking abilities with that statement? It’s okay, I’ll forgive you, just admit the oversight. And as a measure of goodwill toward facts, (not to me) say that that statement was false.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=trump+endorsing+Romney&view=detail&mid=0155FA46057C813506060155FA46057C81350606&FORM=VIRE
I posted a link to the history of his party affiliation which stated that he rejoined the Republican Party in 2012. That was one of those “facts” I talked about. Did you click on the links?
I’m not a “Republican stalwart.” If I were I’d have supported the candidate without a second thought no matter who he was.
You’re the one demanding unquestioning party loyalty and berating us for holding the candidate’s stated positions against him. You’re the one getting angry because “Anybody but Hillary” wasn’t enough for some people to get in line.
You’re the one who can’t accept that the election is over. Jamie and I (and Jonah and the OP) tried to be gracious, but you just won’t let this go. You waded in here and picked a fight for no [redacted] reason.
You won. Get over it.
Agreed. It’s the attitude we should all adopt. Trump is erratic and far more of an anti-liberal than a conservative.
The crazy-making effect of his election and the around-the-table excellence of his cabinet appointments should be celebrated. We should be ready to insist on a Diane Sykes or Thomas Lee.
Unfortunately, Goldberg more than almost any other serious conservative indulged in the silliest Judy Judy/New York leftist cant and predicted a Trump cabinet of horribles. He simply displayed a lack of grounded opinion or even coherence. The NeverTrump (NeverHillary always in parentheses) pose was risible. Some, like Shapiro in his Dunkirk analogy, were honest that they were in effect supporting Hillary and aimed to kick her arse in four years.
I don’t think Jonah has anything to apologize for. But events are happening in the world. The US may collaborate in the creation of a UN state for Hamas et al. Time for Jonah to stop looking in the mirror.
As civil conversation on this topic does not appear to be possible at present, the Editors and Moderators urge everyone to take a breather and reflect on how best to engage fellow members in ways that are civil and productive. We suggest that, in the meantime, everyone explore some of the other excellent conversations on the site.
This thread will reopen in 24 hours.
UPDATE: The post has also been taken off the main feed for the 24 hour period; at the end of the period, it will be republished.
I lost a hell of a lot of respect for the Op-Ed NeverTrumpers. It will take an incredible amount of humility on their part for me to ever look at them in the same light. Worst among them for me was George Will. It will be a cold day in hell before I read another Will column. Is it a matter of forgiveness? I couldn’t care less. It’s a question of their judgement and acumen. If they couldn’t realize that a “President Hillary Clinton” was profoundly worst than any flaws that Donald Trump has – and I was not a Trump supporter at any point in the primaries – if they couldn’t realize how bad for the country a Hillary presidency would be coming after these last eight years of Obama, then I couldn’t care a wit bout their opinion, now or in the future.
I just had to say something on this illustrious thread, as it is now part of Ricochet lore and legend.
Jonah has shifted from unelectable as his main theme to what he believes is his sound assessment of character.
I do not believe Mr Goldberg has the depth of experience of hiring, recruiting and assessing people that many in the business world acquire over decades. His judgement on character is superficial and trite, his assessment is self serving to rescue a shred of his pundit capacity. You may have other opinions.
I believe he will be found wrong on character as well as electability. The cabinet selection process shows an experienced hand at getting people who are known for delivery and not political appeal.
What Jonah grasps at to salvage himself as superficial tweets, I find it effective messaging in a hostile media environment.
But such is merely my opinion. I found Trump tolerable because of his track record in business and media. I believed he had a decent shot at winning. My assessment of his character was that at his core he loved America and felt a duty to the people who elected him. I can be wrong, but so far, my amateur pundit record aint too shabby.
Mr Goldberg needs no apology, he just needs to settle down, accept his errors and reposition himself as supporting of the good and helpful with the less than good. So far, he stills sends the vibe of waiting to pounce on the first issue and declare himself vindicated.
That, America does not need.
Rodin, good job. Some neighborhoods need some street brawling to get the temperatures down. Ask a cop or a gang leader.
If Thomas Sowell had expressed reservations about Trump and announced he wouldn’t vote for him, all those encomiums about his retirement would be replaced by “good riddance.” The body of work means nothing; it’s whether you bent the knee.
Isn’t this incendiary unnessarily? You are saying through an allusion, “you bent the knee”, that Trump was God or an idol.
I disagree that Thomas Sowell would have been treated this way. Mr Sowell has always been humble and let the facts lead him to conclusions. He came from humble beginnings and he is humble in his endings.
(No heat on this. Written in a mellow tone.)
Mr Lileks, this is at best a stretch. I recall Mr Sowell was somewhat uncharitable to Mr Trump in the famous NR issue but I do not recall it being the main body of his commentary during the election year. He was a class act as usual.
To put Mr Goldberg in a league with Dr Sowell is a huge disservice on your part.
This bend the knee thing is also a bit over the top, as we are Americans and we bend knees to no President or Pundit. If some person from the Rabble Alliance has demanded a bended knee, give us his name and they will be dealt with harshly. Let the Progressives do the bowing and scraping.
Sorry, I was referring to memes. ;) During the election run-up the “bend the knee” thing was popular in some alty-righty “Game of Thrones”-type imagery.
This suggests that Jonah’s sin was one of tone, not substance. As for Mr. Sowell:
That’s from a May 2016 column hoping for a third-party challenge.
My point is not to hoist the NeverTrump banner and sound the bugles – we lost, it’s over, he’s our president. Hope for the best, praise the good moves, criticize the bad moves, nudge the whole enterprise rightward. Writing Jonah out of the conservative movement is insane.