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No Jews Speech
The US State Department condemned this speech. The message from State was that “it is wrong to say we support ethnic cleansing when what we really want is just to see all of the Jews eliminated from the region . . . one way or another.”**
** May not be an exact quote, but it expresses the same sentiment.
Published in General
Who is the invader? The area around Jerusalem had very few people until Jews started purchasing land in the late 1800s and early 1900s and “made the desert bloom.” Their prosperity attracted people who wanted to share in the prosperity. Were the Jews who purchased land invaders? (Some Arabs apparently thought so because they murdered some of the people who sold land to the Jews.) Were the immigrants who followed after them invaders?
In WWI, the British conquered the territory from its previous conquerors – the Turks. Were the British any more invaders than the Turks? Were the Arabs who conquered the land in the 8th century less invaders than the British or the Turks? How about the Romans who took the land from the Greeks, who took the land from the Persians, who took it from the Babylonians, who ….
For millennia, the land was occupied and ruled by the people who could hold it. Despite our pretentions of international law, that is still true today. Today’s imperialist empires – Russia, China, Iran, ISIS – don’t defer to international law. Yet we seem to ignore conquest happening under our noses in favor of railing against the British conquest of Israel during a world war.
You seem intent on creating enormous new injustices in the name of correcting an injustice – if injustice it was – that is now a century old.
Richard – crying out for justice is one way our souls cry out for God. Jmho, and yes, hokey, I admit it.
But you’re not crying out for justice. You’re crying out for injustice in the name of justice. You want to give political power to Palestinians who have proven that they will do evil with that power.
I agree.
I wish it were otherwise. I continue to advocate non-incremental change – war ends when one side has been acknowledged by both sides to be the victor. Israel is emotionally unable/unwilling to act in this way, which has been a big part of the problem.
And you seem to be saying that the “invaded” are justified in doing anything at all in resisting the “invaders.” There seems to be nothing the Palestinians can do, no level of depravity to which they can sink which will lead you to conclude that they are in fact the bad guys. In your world those who build houses in the wrong place are the aggressors, and those who murder those people and their children in their sleep are the victims.
Subtle. And intelligent. And charming. And urbane. Also employing double standards about Israel and Jews, and often flirting with demonization and delegitimization. Also doesn’t believe Mondoweiss is antisemitic, and links to it in support of his arguments. Right here on Ricochet.
He knows which buttons to push when playing to a western audience – democracy, right of self-determination, justice. His propaganda war, though, runs aground on the rocky shoals of some very inconvenient truths. It’s hard to explain away the facts that the Palestinians in Gaza democratically elected Hamas and that Hamas’s charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. There is simply no moral equivalence between people who are trying to defend themselves with the least bloodshed possible and people who openly call for a second Holocaust while denying that the first ever occurred.
I just watched the video and no time to read thru comments for now – just want to leave one. The video makes perfect sense and Jews and Arabs living side by side was happening before the PLO and Arafat. In fact, there were more Christians as well. Then hate groups like Hamas and Hezbollah came into it. The State of Israel was recognized internationally in 1948. Why did they pick that plot of land? Because 2000 years ago it belonged to the Jews – their ancestry, archaeology, their stamp is on every inch. It is on old maps. The Christians were there too. The rest of the Middle East which is massive, is mostly Arab, Christian and Muslim Arabs.
It has become undesirable to be a Jew or a Christian in the politically correct,”everyone is equal”, post-modern world. It is not equal. Jews are trashed in Europe, bombed in their own homeland, Christians are being persecuted and ethnically cleansed in many areas of the world. Mostly by radical Muslims, but also by other groups which live by hate. The Jewish leadership all but gave everything to Arafat at one point and it still was not enough. It is not a winnable solution when one side chants death to the other. The boycotting of Jewish products is ridiculous. Israel leads in medical research, agriculture, humanitarian and philanthropic endeavors, etc. What does Iran, Iraq, Syria, provide? Is Egyptian life better? Peace can happen if it’s goal is peace for all.
Actually I haven’t said that. Bad guys can, in some circumstances, be victims. Which just means that the good guys (whomever you pick, if you have that need) are just not always good.
Well thank you. I think.
But I actually don’t employ a double standard in Israel’s favour, and to be honest that’s what you seem to find unpalatable.
(Also, when you start calling Jews antisemitic because you don’t like their opinions about Israel and Palestine I think it’s twisting the term so far that people stop taking it seriously. Which is a pity.)
Jews, particularly converts to other religions or to secular religions have been among history’s most vicious antisemites, even by the definition which you prefer. It may once have been adequate. No longer. It fails to take into account the State of Israel and the Soviet disinformation campaign waged against it that included old antisemitic tropes used in new ways. That is why Natan Sharansky articulated the 3D Test of Anti-Semitism: Demonization, Double Standards, Delegitimization
Chomsky and Finkelstein, Mondoweiss, and other modern antisemites apply a double standard to Israel and/or Jews. Sorry, but you do too.
Chomsky, Finkelstein et al delegitimize Israel. You flirt very hard with that one and at times use doublespeak to hide it. And they demonize Israel. You don’t flirt as hard with that one as you do with delegitimization, but you ask it to dance sometimes. Here on Ricochet.
Israel is rare, if not unique, for several reasons. Being Jewish majority isn’t a significant one wrt reasons for criticism.
It’s the only country I can think of whose creation resulted in refugees whose descendants remain stateless today. I know that’s also because the surrounding Arab states didn’t clean up the mess, which is on them, but they didn’t cause it either.
It’s the only country founded after WWII – so after the age when colonialism was accepted – whose population was perceived as coming from elsewhere to displace local people.
It’s the only country I can think of that keeps a group of people under occupation, with limited civil and political rights, because of their ethnicity.
It’s among the countries which systematically privilege one religious group over another.
Ignoring all this because Israel is the Jewish State is where the double standard can be seen. And that’s the only way one can argue that the double standard harms Israel. In fact it mostly benefits the country.
I don’t think Israel was gotten legitimately, but neither were a lot of other countries – that is neither here nor there – the State is no more or less legitimate than many others.
I make an effort to quote Israeli sources. You may not like them, but that’s the opposite of demonisation.
Zafar, do you see why people think you might be trolling?
Here is one example:
REALLY? Countries that treat people differently based on their ethnicity? Practically all of them.
For goodness sake, the United States does this for Native Americans. Canada and Australia and New Zealand also do it to so-called indigenous people. Our critics think we do it to black people. I think we do it to White People – see Action, Affirmative.
And this is just the anglosphere West. In Turkey and Iran, Kurds are treated very differently. Indeed, the rule in the world (not the exception) is that ethnicity is the dominant predictor of civil and political rights.
At least in Israel’s case, the discrimination in law has a firm empirical cause: Palestinian Arabs are not drafted to serve in the army because they are rightly suspected of not being loyal to the Israeli State.
Lots if (most?) countries treat people differently because of ethnicity.
Not so many “keep[s] a group of people under occupation, with limited civil and political rights, because of their ethnicity”.
Let’s be honest in our white anting, please : – )
I ignored “under occupation” because it was clear trolling. Arabs in Israel are no more “under occupation” than are Apaches in Oklahoma. Ditto the “limited civil and political rights” because if you are looking for explicit legal differences, you’ll find more against Jews in any Arab land than against Arabs in Jewish lands. Or Kurds in Turkey, Malays in Indonesia, Tamils in India, ad infinitum.
But Arabs in the West Bank (and arguably Gaza) are.
I understand it’s easier to respond to your own questions, but why pretend that they’re being asked by me? Just do a monologue.
Tamils in India?
iWe, I am truly disappointed in your general knowledge. This is truly horrifying. I’ve built my whole image of you around you being a smart, well informed guy.
I’m in mourning.
Please. “I make an effort to quote American sources: Howard Zinn, Ward Churchill, Jeff Rense, Joanne Chesimard, ..”
Also: Israelis like Finkelstein? Philip Weiss of Mondoweiss? Neither are Israeli. Does Jew = Israeli in your mind?
Yes, so American is broader in opinion than is claimed.
I meant Sri Lanka. And, like most people, I do Ricochet as a background activity from real work.
That said, it is not hard to claim that discrimination in India (between castes, religions, etc.) matches or exceeds that in Israel.
No. You want to make a big thing about the word “occupation” but that is meaningless in law and fact.
Tell me, Zafar, is it worse for people to live under a government that has been democratically elected (even if by other people), or by a dictator who has not been elected by anyone?
I think clearly the former is preferred. The latter is the norm in the Arab world.
Legal rights are much more practically important than whether the government is staffed by “others”. And Arabs in the West Bank who are governed by Israel have right of redress in law.
Yes. That was the money quote for me.
This is why I feel no guilt whatsoever over the “occupation”. I do feel pity for the Pals because of the violence endemic in their culture, especially as that manifests itself against women, gays, and gentle individuals trapped within it.
But I will never feel enough pity for them to allow them to kill me or anyone else who is not acting in violence.
Zafar – your comment #163 is confusing. As a Christian, I grew up in Sunday school knowing where Israel was on the map – because it’s history and lineage predates Christianity and Islam. The history and the Bible spell out all anyone needs to know about it. Because Jews were expelled from their country forcibly and dispersed throughout the world doesn’t mean their homeland ceased to exist. Every inch of Israel has archaeological sites – are you disputing that? Jewish lineage is there. That’s like saying native Americans were never in the US. How can you be a refugee in your own country? During WWII Poland ceased to exist. I am half Polish – an enemy of my native heritage erased my country for a time. I am not Russian. Look in any history book and you will see Israel outlined on a map predating Christianity by hundreds and hundreds of years.
On the other hand, Arabs have ruled the rest of the Middle East as long. The size of the real estate is in no comparison. I understand the Palestinian people have been living on Jewish land for a long time. They have a history and the Jewish leadership does not wish to expel them. There wasn’t always a wall either. The enormous Arab countries surrounding Israel attacked them right after they once again had their homeland returned. Why? They somehow defended it and same in 1967 – why? How would you feel if you were Jewish?
We are in the realm of metaphysical certitude here: these people and those who support them are deeply embedded with evil itself.
Once again, you ignore the actual reason for the occupation: If Palestinians want full rights all they have to do is stop killing Jews. Your insistence on pretending that the Palestinians aren’t doing anything to provoke the Jews is maddening.
They don’t want a resolution — they want things to fester because it serves their purposes with the despicable “international community.”
But, most Palestinians are pawns in service to the left-wing and now Islamo-fascist projects of the world.