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Who’s Right? Patrick J. Buchanan or William F. Buckley, Jr.?
On the prospects for Western civilization, Patrick J. Buchanan said in an interview today with the Daily Caller:
When asked if a Trump victory in the United States, and the success of groups such as the National Front in France could offset this demise [the demise of the West], Buchanan was not hopeful. “Do I think those books stand up very well? Yup,” Buchanan told TheDC. “The West is disintegrating. Its faith is dead. When the cult dies, the culture dies and when the culture dies the civilization dies, and when the civilization dies the people die, and that’s what’s happening to Western civilization.”
The conservative commentator was especially grim about Europe, Buchanan said, “It’s hard for me to see how the Europeans survive whether they have the will just given the trend-lines in terms of population and in terms of immigrants pouring in.”
He told TheDC, “I’m not a great optimist about the Western civilization.”
In contrast, here is William F. Buckley, Jr., addressing a rally at Carnegie Hall to protest a visit to the United States by Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev on September 17, 1960:
Ladies and gentlemen, we deem it the central revelation of Western experience that man cannot ineradicably stain himself, for the wells of regeneration are infinitely deep… Khrushchev cannot take permanent advantage of our temporary disadvantage, for it is the West he is fighting. And in the West there lie, however encysted, the ultimate resources, which are moral in nature …
Even out of the depths of despair, we take heart in the knowledge that it cannot matter how deep we fall, for there is always hope. In the end, we will bury [them].
Well, good people of Ricochet? Who’s right?
Published in Culture
There is always hope and there is something good worth fighting for and so long as even one good man stands, evil will not triumph to paraphrase Edmund Burke.
Buckley is definitely right and he is because conservatism is eternal. Its the philosophy of life, success, and dignity. It yields the good fruit.
Another Ricochet member thinks that Buckley would have been a monk while Buchanan would have been a tribal leader. I disagree, men that are pessimistic and lose faith turn inward generally and avoid the world. Men that have hope and faith and actually fight for their philosophy are leaders, they engage the world and do not turn away from the challenges of life.
Buchanan would have become a hermit of some odd enclave, Buckley would have led like a true believer in conservatism.
This is spot on analysis. The abandonment of Chistianity by the intellectual class has removed the foundation on which Western Civilization stood. It is undeniable that the philosophical and scientific ethos that we pride ourselves for in the West and made the world a better place has its origins in Medieval Christianity.
I didn’t get a harumph outta that guy.
You would have a better grasp on where things stand if you understood an entire generation has been raised to reject the idea of objective truth. This is not a matter of persuasion. They reject your premise out of hand before you can make your argument.
With what are we to restore ourselves? It is repeated that Culture is upstream of politics, well where can you point in our culture that suggests we are on the verge of revival? Where can you look in what is popular society that suggests there is a clamoring of the masses for something wholesome and pure in terms of enlightened thinking. For Heaven’s sake we have courts ruling that the Title IX clause of the DoE was meant to be read as though one can choose what sex to identify with as opposed to the irrefutable biological truth. If society cannot even be honest when presented that Truth, then they are not seeking rejuvenation toward greatness.
All I see is a steady march toward more and more hedonism, and that is a destructive force.
Western Civilization is built of the ashes of Athens, and the remnants of Rome. Neither culture was “Christian” for the majority of it’s existence. Beyond that though, the idea that the elites and how they feel about Christianity, has any bearing on the culture at large doesn’t mean much. People like Buchanan are far to worried about how many Christians are in the halls of Congress, or the Supreme Court.
Cultural restoration rarely comes from the top down, it always comes from the bottom up. Often lead by a few dedicated believers who are willing to fight and lead. Soviet Russia rose because of the actions of a few disgruntled academics. Nazi Germany came to pass because of a few angry drunks who liked the voice of a mad man. The shot that was heard around the world happened on a small bridge in Massachusetts, where citizen farmers stood against the strongest army of it’s day. And of course the most classic example of all, our Lord Jesus Christ choose to spread his message by handing it off to 12 men.
Great things are often lead by a very small number.
yes and the intellectual roots of both of those societies were preserved by Medieval monks scribbling away in monestaries. That is the only way the knowledge of those two cultures survived the “Dark Ages” to bring us the Reniesance and eventually the Enlightenment.
Whiskey Sam I am a millennial. This is not a numbers issue, it is a willingness issue. Far to many old men and women like Buchanan are willing to sit at home, cry in their beer, and say the world is dead and not worth saving, because it doesn’t look like 1955 anymore. I don’t suffer from that narcissistic view point. Nor am I afraid of standing up to fight.
The problem is, is when people my age try to reverse the course we often find our older brothers and sisters telling us to sit down, shut up, and accept defeat.
The society built by Athens was a joke when Paul went to preach there in the 40’s A.D. and Rome was an open sewer when Augustine observed its collapse.
Speaking of which a good reading of the City of God would be a nice way to spend a month in the current day.
Enlightenment I’m assuming you mean. And partially true, a lot was actually brought back because of the Crusades, but that’s neither here nor there. The over all point you should be looking it, is that even in one of the darkest ages of history their were still men who were willing to fight. Unlike the Buchananites who want to throw up their hands and declare it all over, and the fight not really worth it well they head for the backyard fallout shelter.
Restoration is just as possible as complete destruction. Of course for restoration to happen people actually have to be willing to fight even against large odds.
Large segments of our culture reject the concept of objective truth. This isn’t a matter of persuasion. They are conflicting worldviews that are antithetical to each other. You are oversimplifying the issue pretending you can just talk people into seeing things your way. You first have to be able to communicate in a meaningful way. Whether it’s college campuses, social media, or popular culture, there is not meaningful communication occurring between these two paradigms. War is a much more likely catalyst for cultural change than persuasion, but we are in an era where the idea of physically fighting for rights is verboten because it’s too radical or unseemly.
William Buckley.
Buchanan is right. In the olden days, the West believed in itself and in the values of the Enlightenment. Now, TPTB seek new and innovative ways to demean the West as a bastion of colonialism, imperialism, racist, sexism, homophobia, (insert “-ism” of the day), etc. The Elites actively seek to destroy the foundations of the West, even down to denial of basic gender anatomy. Religion, rule of law, marriage, national sovereignty, capitalism all have to be sacrificed on the altar of multiculturalism and climate change. The men in Germany won’t even defend their women from Islamorapists. Germany has finally conquered Europe in it’s third try in 100 years. This time, the they convinced the rest of Europe let the invaders walk right in. Merkel knows damn well that Germany is the strongest country and will be the last one standing after the invading barbarian hordes overwhelm everybody else.
The ideals and practices that once founded western civilization are perennial if not eternal. They will survive.
Western civilization itself is not eternal. It will die eventually.
I suspect it is dying now; like Boethius, it may be that what we write today can no longer save the old civilization, but will build the next one.
The same Western Roman Empire which saw Flavius Aetius defeat the Huns at Chalons or the same Roman Empire break the Visigoths, Burgundians, and Franks under Flavius Majorianus. Or the same Eastern Roman Empire under Justinian that saw Flavius Belisarius conquer North Africa, Sicily, Sardinian and Corisca, and Italy?
The Roman civilization was far from death when Augustine was in despair. No doubt a wise man, but all men have limited vision of what will come.
Fight Club rules. Never talk about Winfrey.
Surely Reformation Christianity deserves some credit?
When the zombies come, all the stupid people will die. And then we smart people will take care of business…
I think you are being far to negative. I do not believe we are in an age of machine guns instead of persuasion. We aren’t destined to die now, anymore then we were in 1970.
Actually, I joined WFB and a couple of other friends once to do just that–make a retreat at a monastery. (Well, not strictly true. It was an abbey. But still.) But your larger point is quite correct. Although he certainly respected monks who had made the decision to withdraw from the world (I also joined him once in spending a day at a real monastery, where one of his nephews was, and remains), he himself felt called to participate in the world and fight.
Are you sure that was Pasternak? I remember it as Ilya Eherenburg. Can’t find it by googling the quote.
Our culture is far different, and far more fractured, now than it was 40 years ago. How has attempting persuasion worked for us for the last 40 years? Is the general populace more or less dependent on the government? Has the government’s reach and influence grown or been reduced? Which part of the bureaucracy has been curtailed? Is our society today more conservative or liberal?
Very cool Peter. I have many of Buckley’s books, but I don’t have Nearer My God. So I don’t know his exact feelings about the Almighty, although I do know he was a religious man. Still interesting to know.
As you said though, Buckley was a man who wanted to participate in the world and fight. Those of us who can should be following that example.
Having met Reagan and Buckley briefly, they were great men, but when the dark ages comes, you must go somewhere to preserve what you can. I could see Buckley preserving the knowledge and hard won practical experience of western civilization, just as the monasteries did, while all crumbled around him. Buchanan would advise a tribe on when to fight, when to make friends and when to stop being friends and fight. Dark Ages are not easy to survive, what will all the plagues and self flagellation cults and such. Both roles are active and heroic. You diminish me to assume otherwise.
Without both types during the dark ages, no one may have emerged out the other side.
Neither man would cry in their beer. If you know the history, I was paying them a compliment.
Sure things rise and fall. The point isn’t that things are great, it’s that they aren’t so far gone that we got to start “Storming the Bastille”. This is still a republic, and we still can fight for it and the culture that built it. It’s not time to start grabbing our guns.
The ability to restore ourselves is one of the things that has always made the United States different from the rest of the world. We are not destined to inevitable decline.
We are not in a dark age that is unable to be altered nor are we in inevitable decline. The Vandals aren’t at the gates, and Constantinople is not calling for aid. If I believed that I would be arguing for people to arm themselves, and prepare for combat. We are far from that.
We still have it in our power to control our own destiny.
Restoration requires revelation and understanding that change is needed. You’re jumping that step while ignoring that every indicator shows we are moving in the opposite direction. There is a very high likelihood our presidential candidates will be an ignorant buffoon and a criminal socialist. Our society is afraid to call anything what it is for fear of offending someone or coming under attack for potentially offending someone. We can no longer figure out which bathroom to use. This is a healthy culture ripe for renewal?
You use a lot of bold language about fighting, but it’s just that, all talk. That kind of bluster is why all the questions I asked that you ignored show us to be in full retreat from a culture wallowing in its decadence that doesn’t even realize it is dying let alone sees a need to change.
12 men going on their own, on separate paths, with no support, and often being persecuted by the powers that be, are the men who built up Christianity. This is about a dedicated group fighting to make an effort. Of course their are problems now, if their weren’t we wouldn’t be talking about it.
All I’m hearing from you is further excuses as to why we shouldn’t bother fighting. The first step to restoration is the will to begin fighting, and working among your community. Places like here, and elsewhere.
No because by that time the knowledge of Greece and Rome had been preserved and was thus passed on to us, which began the thinking that eventually began the Enlightenment. Reformation Christianity made its contributions to be sure, but I think it is the preservation of ancient wisdom by the Medieval Christians that brought the West out of the ashes of Rome.