The Mean Girls Club, or What’s Wrong in Nursing

 

Upset nurse sitting on the floorI always knew I wanted to be a Nurse Practitioner (NP), even before starting nursing school, but I didn’t realize at the time one of the major benefits of being an NP: You’re not really considered a nurse anymore.

During my undergraduate clinicals, I started seeing the ugly underside of nursing, the side that students only hear about if they have nurses in their family: Nurses eat their young. At times it’s said almost jokingly, like a girl describing the awful band her boyfriend likes with a tone of, “I hate it, but that’s just the way it is, and I love him in spite of it.” As a student nurse, I would talk to any NP that would give me the time of day, and one of questions was about the interpersonal dynamics at the provider level: Are NPs catty to each other the way staff nurses can be? Everyone I spoke with said that the environment among providers was overwhelmingly better than being a floor nurse. So y’all can imagine how disheartened I was after spending the majority of my clinical hours this semester on a unit where the NPs are just as much a part of the Mean Girls culture as the nurses. One of the reasons I wanted to become a mid-level provider was to get above the fray, away from the backstabbing and snideness.

The real problem here isn’t my recent morale-crushing experience in the ICU, but rather the general Mean Girls culture in nursing, and the way little seems to be done to combat it. Channeling Regina and Gretchen might be okay in high school (if you haven’t seen the movie, go watch it now), but that kind of behavior is not only unacceptable for nurses, it’s dangerous. And it’s unfortunately all too common. When I typed in “bullying among” the first thing Google autofills to is “bullying among nurses.” That says a lot. There have even been articles written for the American Association for Critical-Care Nurses, American Nurses Association, and the Academy of Medical-Surgical Nurses about bullying in the nursing profession. New grad RNs tend to get targeted the most, and much like the Greek system, there is a strong tradition of hazing in nursing that ultimately puts the patient at risk.

Bullying contributes to the high turnover rate in nursing, and it’s not uncommon for nurses to work on a unit for six to twelve months before transferring to another unit or an entirely new hospital. High turnover rates affect health care costs more than you might think. Anytime a new RN is hired, there’s often a six- to eight-week orientation period, regardless of previous work experience, during which the new RN is paired with an experienced nurse on that unit. For those two months of orientation, the hospital is paying two nurses to do the job of one. Since nursing salaries are covered under the fee of the facility that’s billed, patients ultimately end up literally paying the price for nurses not being able to play nice.

But it can get even worse than just an increase in your hospital bill. Sometimes patient lives are literally put in jeopardy because of the Mean Girls culture. While I’ve never had a nurse refuse to help during a patient emergency, I’ve read stories of nurses who were left to fend for themselves while a patient was crashing. And I’ve chosen to handle a patient emergency by myself instead of asking for help from the other nurses (well, one particular nurse) who had created an adversarial work environment. It’s hard to bring yourself to ask for help when you feel you can’t trust the other person.

I’ve experienced the backstabbing, manipulation, and cattiness in almost every clinical and work setting I’ve been in as an RN and NP student. Fortunately, until this semester, I’ve been above the fray by virtue of functioning as an NP. But all of this makes me ask: Why is it that many times, when women are together in a group, they sabotage and tear each other down? Why are women often more critical of each other than we are of men?

I was reading something on Facebook about the division within my church over women’s ordination, and as someone pointed out, the most vocal critics of having women on the platform came from other women. I’m not convinced that it comes down to biology, as some would have us believe, or women wanting to gain the attention of the best potential mate. Women who are married with children can be just as mean as the single gals.

So what drives women to such lengths, even to the point of putting someone’s life in danger? Is it an innate desire for control? Respect? Status? Or are we perpetually stuck in high school, looking for the approval of the popular girls?

 

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  1. The King Prawn Inactive
    The King Prawn
    @TheKingPrawn

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    The King Prawn: I think they hide it well from patients for the most part.

    That’s for sure. I’m pretty shocked, because I’ve never experienced anything but kindness and selflessness from the entirety of the nursing profession. I’ve always thought, “What good people.” I wonder if the pressure to look kind and selfless on the outside makes people go mental on the inside? Is that possible?

    Surely it is possible, but I think the likely cause is much deeper than that. I think there may be some hardwired issues at play here. We can overcome our natures, and that is basically the singular demand of civilization. Perhaps women just go feral quickly in that environment?

    • #31
  2. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    How competitive is nursing?  Competitive work environments can create cattiness and back stabbing.  Not saying a competitive work environment is a bad thing but it can create some negative side effects.

    • #32
  3. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    The King Prawn: I think they hide it well from patients for the most part.

    That’s for sure. I’m pretty shocked, because I’ve never experienced anything but kindness and selflessness from the entirety of the nursing profession. I’ve always thought, “What good people.” I wonder if the pressure to look kind and selfless on the outside makes people go mental on the inside? Is that possible?

    People wear different masks, depending on the situation.  I had an employee who was the living embodiment of Uriah Heap when it came to our CEO (groveling, meek, seeming a perpetual victim), but a living vindictive nightmare to everyone else.  To those under that person’s supervision, they played a game of making life hard while blaming upper management for the issues.  They claimed to be the real one defending their charges, but they were really undermining their confidence and ability to succeed (it should be noted, as it may be germane to this post, that this person was female, and it was the other female workers who fared most poorly).

    But masks can only be worn for so long.  Eventually the facade breaks down, if you are around long enough.  As a hospital patient, you likely would not be around long enough to see it.

    • #33
  4. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    Nurses also bully medical students and residents.  Some residents become bullies, certainly, and go on to be attending bullies, but I suspect that the bullying culture gets started when those same people are bullied by nurses.

    • #34
  5. She Member
    She
    @She

    Wow.  I spent 25 years in healthcare, and wasn’t aware that it was as bad as that.  I’m not doubting you, I must have just missed most of it.

    A few observations on nurses from a somewhat informed lay person:

    • Some of them are on the list of the most wonderful people I’ve ever known.
    • They are the only ‘group’ I’ve ever run into, other than former US Marines, who can ferret out the presence of others in the room, no matter the occasion or the crowd.  500 strangers, two of whom were US Marines?  They’ll find each other in the first five minutes.  Nurses?  The same.  There must be a pheromone of some sort.
    • I’ve know more than a few nurses who spent a lot of time running down the doctor in a rather unprofessional way.  Not sure what that’s about other than a lack of self-confidence, and an attempt to build themselves up.  (Note:  I’m well aware that there are doctors who are jerks, but that doesn’t justify demeaning them in front of the patient.  And as we all know, imperfect personal ethics do not necessarily translate into incompetence in the field).
    • While most nurses I’ve known have been startlingly competent in their field, they’ve, almost without exception, been tentative and unwilling to immerse themselves in the IT component of their jobs.  This often made the relationship between IT and the clinical staff difficult, as more and more computer technology wormed its way into their daily lives and made it impossible for them to do their jobs without it.
    • Nurses are working in a field where ‘accountability’ is a byword, where every move they make is documented, evaluated and judged.  A bad decision could, quite literally, be the difference between someone’s life and his death, and if they make one, they are in deep, deep trouble.  I’ve seen nursing units where the relationship between the manager, the staff nurses, the hospital, and the ‘regs’ is such that a culture of suspicion, cattiness, and even a certain kind of paranoia seems almost inevitable.
    • And finally, when my stepson was critically injured in a bicycle/car accident in 1981, although the doctors performed wonders as they came and went, it was the nurses, who stayed with him 7×24, and who would not let him go, who gave him back to us.

    Thank God for nurses.

    • #35
  6. thelonious Member
    thelonious
    @thelonious

    Just a reminder to all you misogynist cretins.  Not all nurses are women. :>

    • #36
  7. Al Sparks Coolidge
    Al Sparks
    @AlSparks

    I’ve seen this kind of cattiness in other occupations filled mostly by women.

    But one thing not directly addressed in this thread so far is the caste system of the medical community.  As an outsider looking in, it strikes me that there’s this kind of bullying amongst doctors (not as male dominated a caste as it used to be, but still mostly male).  And that doctors bully nurses.  How does the interaction between the two fields, and the fact that doctors give orders to nurses, affect things?

    Obviously, this thread has traction because we’re talking about women, mostly, not men (though I’d be interested in any observations that male nurses have and how they’re treated in this kind of environment).

    Everyone assumes that alpha male dominated environments have bullying, but it’s generally more direct, at least in the lower levels.  Obviously there’s more subterfuge in a male dominated C-suite of an organization (CEO and direct reports, along with the staff that works for them).  But in the blue collar male dominated trades, things seem more direct and straightforward to me.

    There’s been arguments by feminists that because women are the “gentler” sex that female dominated work environments are better environments. Well, no, they are just as susceptible as being bad environments as male dominated ones, just in a different way.

    Of course, there are also work environments where there are a mix of male female.  Those can be bad too, with women acting as martyrs with legal protection, and men forced to utilize more passive aggressive techniques to defend themselves.

    • #37
  8. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    thelonious:Just a reminder to all you misogynist cretins. Not all nurses are women. :>

    LOL, this is true but the majority are still women. All the women in my family, including aunts, and cousins are nurses, but I do have one male cousin who is a nurse. I should ask him his experience.

    • #38
  9. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    Might it have something to do with changes to the industry which are increasing stress for nurses? Is there an increase in the ratio of patients per nurse, as there is of students per teacher? Are modern nurses burdened by significantly more regulations, paperwork, and other bureaucratic pressures than nurses were a generation ago?

    If there has been a generational change, I wonder if it is more due to changed circumstances nurses work within or due to changed attitudes nurses bring into the field.

    • #39
  10. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    Mate De:

    thelonious:Just a reminder to all you misogynist cretins. Not all nurses are women. :>

    LOL, this is true but the majority are still women. All the women in my family, including aunts, and cousins are nurses, but I do have one male cousin who is a nurse. I should ask him his experience.

    Also, I’ve never heard about the catty male nurses. :D

    • #40
  11. Titus Techera Contributor
    Titus Techera
    @TitusTechera

    Amy Schley:

    Mate De:

    thelonious:Just a reminder to all you misogynist cretins. Not all nurses are women. :>

    LOL, this is true but the majority are still women. All the women in my family, including aunts, and cousins are nurses, but I do have one male cousin who is a nurse. I should ask him his experience.

    Also, I’ve never heard about the catty male nurses. :D

    & female athletes don’t spit!

    • #41
  12. Al Sparks Coolidge
    Al Sparks
    @AlSparks

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.:

    Vicryl Contessa: And I’m not sure why it seems to be so pervasive in nursing. I do think that the leadership has a lot to do with it.

    It’s certainly true that this is what comes up first when you Google, “Bullying among … ” I thought, “No, for sure this is autofilled based on past searches,” but nope, it seems nurses really are the meanest people in the world. And that is strange and hard to understand. I don’t think that’s true of other professions dominated by women, is it? Ballerinas, maybe.

    I’m a little surprised that you’re surprised.  But from what little I know of you, your work experience seems to be primarily writing, an insular occupation.  Perhaps that’s why.

    • #42
  13. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    My mother was a nurse in the 60s and 70s, and has told of very similar behavior, so I am not sure it is a generational thing, save that there were no NPs, and few female doctors. There were cliques then, and bullying too, though people did not view bullying the same way then. Emotionally, people were more stony and less outwardly fragile. If you were bullied, or held back by a clique, you just shrugged it off or moved on.

    • #43
  14. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    I have worked in IT all my life.  At times I did desktop support.  This often allowed me to sit in a cubes unnoticed with womyn in the other cubes around me.  Eventually they would forget I was around and the conversation and actions changed to a womyn on womyn dynamic.  This allowed me to be the fly on the wall thing during which I have observed a lot of womyn spitefulness, cattiness, that seems to manifest itself in very petty forms.  Almost childish from a man’s point of view.  Behaviors that a man would never do to another man.

    After a while I came to the conclusion that the reason some womyn did this was because they could.  Men don’t do these behaviors because they can’t.  When two or more men interact there is ALWAYS the capacity for violence.  It is in our nature.  We are a violent gender.  Say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing and you may find yourself getting your arse whipped. This proclivity towards violence tends to make men more respectful in actions toward each other.  These respectful actions over time have become custom so that if a man acted in a the same way as your “mean girls” do that man’s friends and allies would let him know he was stepping out of the “man code” customs and if violence happened then he was on his own since from their point of view he had it coming.

    • #44
  15. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    My mother described some of the RNs (who were generally the floor bosses) she worked for as absolute harridans, especially toward the LPNs.

    • #45
  16. Frozen Chosen Inactive
    Frozen Chosen
    @FrozenChosen

    I hate to say it but it’s a woman thing.  I’ve run a dental office for the past 9 years and drama among the all female dental assistants is legendary.  I’ve gotten rid of most of the drama queens over the years but even the best team will develop rifts over time.  I’m not sure what the problem is but it is definitely a problem.

    I like to say if you have two women working together you have friends – if you have three you have a clique and an odd woman out.

    • #46
  17. Al Sparks Coolidge
    Al Sparks
    @AlSparks

    Manny:The “backstabbing, manipulation, and cattiness” sounds like normal human interaction, sinful of course, but normal, and that goes for men as well as women. But hazing is unacceptable, anywhere, but especially in something like nursing. My cousin is a registered nurse. Next time I meet up with her I’ll have to ask about it.

    As someone who hasn’t thrived in a hazing environment (I’ve done ok, but I have tended to migrate away from them), I do see the value.

    The reason hazing, if done right, can make an organization or field tighter, is shared misery.  It is why you see it in military organizations, and why you see it in other high pressure occupations like the medical profession.

    As a young plebe, Douglas MacArthur was hazed at West Point to the point where he almost died.  Yet he defended the practice for the rest of his long life.  He wasn’t a stupid man (he had other obvious shortcomings) and had time to reflect on the advantages, as well as the obvious unfairness of the system.  He was a “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” type of guy.

    The arguments against hazing are not slam dunk arguments.

    • #47
  18. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    Amy Schley: Also, I’ve never heard about the catty male nurses. :D

    Actually, I’ve encountered some incredibly catty male nurses.

    I was on the phone once with a male nurse and asked his name, as we are required to do for documentation purposes. I said, “Could you spell your name for me please?”

    He said, “Yes, I know how to spell my name.”

    • #48
  19. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Lucy Pevensie
    @LucyPevensie

    Fake John/Jane Galt: After a while I came to the conclusion that the reason some womyn did this was because they could. Men don’t do these behaviors because they can’t. When two or more men interact there is ALWAYS the capacity for violence. It is in our nature. We are a violent gender. Say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing and you may find yourself getting your arse whipped. This proclivity towards violence tends to make men more respectful in actions toward each other. These respectful actions over time have become custom so that if a man acted in a the same way as your “mean girls” do that man’s friends and allies would let him know he was stepping out of the “man code” customs and if violence happened then he was on his own since from their point of view he had it coming.

    That is a profound insight.

    • #49
  20. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    I think we can all agree that this type of behavior can be found wherever women congregate – teaching, PTA, sororities.

    I call it “divide and conquer”, women can’t dominate and gain supporters physically so they do it with relationships. Just watch three very young girls spend a day together. There is always 2 against 1.

    I think it is a negative aspect of female nature. The problem is, as Mate De mentioned, women are never corrected nor as children told they need to behave different.

    My daughter is like me, wired like a guy. She went to an all girls high school. But it was a Catholic school and the girl behavior you would expect to see was constantly being challenged and not encouraged.

    p.s. As I was struggling to type this on my phone, I see that Fake John/Jane Gault and Frozen Chosen made my points. (better, I might add)

    • #50
  21. skipsul Inactive
    skipsul
    @skipsul

    Annefy: I call it “divide and conquer”, women can’t dominate and gain supporters physically so they do it with relationships. Just watch three very young girls spend a day together. There is always 2 against 1.

    I watch that dynamic at play every single day with my 4 daughters.  The entire day is a battle of shifting loyalties.

    • #51
  22. Fat Dave Inactive
    Fat Dave
    @FatDave

    I’ve heard the horror stories from my wife, and I think her experience in a hospital has made her deathly afraid of going to the doctor. Take into account what they deal with day in and day out. They spend all their empathy and emotions on caring for their patients, many of whom are uncooperative and sometimes hostile to their ministrations, patients are going to die on them from time to time, they see a LOT of the mistakes doctors make (and fix them), and they are constantly short staffed and overworked. They don’t have much patience left for anyone else by then.

    • #52
  23. Fat Dave Inactive
    Fat Dave
    @FatDave

    Amy Schley:

    Mate De:

    thelonious:Just a reminder to all you misogynist cretins. Not all nurses are women. :>

    LOL, this is true but the majority are still women. All the women in my family, including aunts, and cousins are nurses, but I do have one male cousin who is a nurse. I should ask him his experience.

    Also, I’ve never heard about the catty male nurses. :D

    You don’t know enough male nurses.

    • #53
  24. Frozen Chosen Inactive
    Frozen Chosen
    @FrozenChosen

    Annefy:I think we can all agree that this type of behavior can be found wherever women congregate – teaching, PTA, sororities.

    I call it “divide and conquer”, women can’t dominate and gain supporters physically so they do it with relationships. Just watch three very young girls spend a day together. There is always 2 against 1.

    I think it is a negative aspect of female nature. The problem is, as Mate De mentioned, women are never corrected nor as children told they need to behave different.

    My daughter is like me, wired like a guy. She went to an all girls high school. But it was a Catholic school and the girl behavior you would expect to see was constantly being challenged and not encouraged.

    How about we say emotionally wired like a guy.  As our society is in the throes of a transgender moment, I feel that clarity is needed

    • #54
  25. Fat Dave Inactive
    Fat Dave
    @FatDave

    From observing my wife’s bosses (all female), and my experience with a number of female bosses, and observing how Mother and my sister run the family business (I chose silent partner and an independent career for a reason), I have to say that while I have had some bad male bosses, all my female bosses have been absolutely terrible, whether trying to manage a sales team through guilt trips (Mother immunized me at an early age) or Stalinesque cults of personality and networks of informants, except one, who was the best boss of all.  She also happened to be an academic (I was working in a museum at the time) with strongly Socialist tendencies, so a few months ago we were chatting, and I told her my experience with my current female boss at the time, and I said, “Laura, you know, with my experience, I found it hard to vote for a woman, but having worked for you changed my mind and has allowed me to consider voting for (dramatic pause while she expected me to say Hillary)  . . . Carly Fiorina!”  She just laughed and told me to go to H-E-double-hockeysticks.

    • #55
  26. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    skipsul:

    Annefy: I call it “divide and conquer”, women can’t dominate and gain supporters physically so they do it with relationships. Just watch three very young girls spend a day together. There is always 2 against 1.

    I watch that dynamic at play every single day with my 4 daughters. The entire day is a battle of shifting loyalties.

    With three sons, my day was spent saying things like: stop hitting your brother, stop racing in the house, stop wrestling, stop spitting … wait, WHY do you want the duct tape?

    • #56
  27. She Member
    She
    @She

    Aaron Miller:Might it have something to do with changes to the industry which are increasing stress for nurses? Is there an increase in the ratio of patients per nurse, as there is of students per teacher? Are modern nurses burdened by significantly more regulations, paperwork, and other bureaucratic pressures than nurses were a generation ago?

    Yes to all this.  Many get out of nursing, or at least, nursing in highly regulated environments, because of this.

    • #57
  28. HeartofAmerica Inactive
    HeartofAmerica
    @HeartofAmerica

    Amy Schley:One of my axioms: Anyone who thinks the world would be better if it was run by women has never been in an organization run by women.

    9/10 times I’d prefer to directly report to a man. What I’ve experienced is that while a man may be fast-tracked or working to get promoted, it’s worse when your female boss is trying to do the same thing. Most are ready to throw any or all of the staff under the bus to keep her name clean. I’ve often seen many women managers spend a great deal of time networking rather than spending time “working the work” or developing their staffs. We are all just a small marker in her quest to move up. I’ve worked for a few exceptions but by far most are career-driven to almost a crazed level.

    • #58
  29. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Paula Lynn Johnson: A lot of this stuff would go away if our gender wasn’t so notoriously passive-aggressive. There’s an advantage to male directness: it settles the score so people can get on with life.

    Ummm. I agree with a lot of what you’ve said, Paula. And certainly women hold on to stupid stuff longer than men. But I think passive-aggressive behavior shows up in both sexes. The results are just different. Now see, you’ll possibly have to comment again! ;>)

    • #59
  30. Al Sparks Coolidge
    Al Sparks
    @AlSparks

    This discussion made me go to YouTube, and look at clips from One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.  It’s not as germane to this discussion, since the thrust is how women are treating other women and Cuckoo’s Nest is about a nurse who dominates weak, powerless men.

    But you know that someone like Nurse Ratched also dominates her fellow nurses.  The movie barely acknowledges that she has fellow nurses.  This stereotype has a lot of truth to it.

    • #60
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