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CBS Republican Debate: This Just Got Real
Well, folks, here we are again. Is this the ninth or the tenth Republican debate? I think I lost count. We have heard all the talking points before, we have seen all the candidates before, nothing new could have possibly happened. Right? If that’s what you thought, you are dead wrong, my friends.
This was the first debate that felt to me like it mattered, to everyone. No kiddie debate, and finally a manageable number of candidates. In fact, this debate got so intense for a while that I actually had to take down notes to make sure I didn’t miss anything.
The sparks flew in this debate, especially between Jeb! and Trump, and Cruz and Rubio. Normally I do this by candidate, but I think this time I will do it by highlighting the two main fights and my impressions of everyone’s role in them, and then a quick word on everyone individually.
The Iraq War:
This was maybe the fight of the night. Coming off of a general discussion on foreign policy in which Trump looked like the kid who’s asked to stand before the class and give a book report about a book he didn’t read, Trump bragged that he’d opposed the Iraq war and left it all but said that he thought Bush should have been impeached for it. He essentially made the Code Pink argument without bothering to go all the way to the “Bush lied people died” chant. But he might have done that, given time. This offered Jeb! a serious chance to jump in, defend his brother, and beat Trump for the ignorant Democrat that he is. Jeb! did a good job of it, actually. Kasich came in and said something of no consequence that I actually think was wrong, then Rubio came and laid down the hard truth. He might as well have said to Jeb!, “Step aside grandpa, this is how it’s done.”
Then Trump sunk so low he blamed W. for 9/11. It was pathetic.
But Rubio converted Trump’s lowest point in his campaign to a brutal and honest attack on Bill Clinton. This whole exchange was yuuuuge. I think it reveals Trump beyond all doubt to be a Democrat. I can’t see how it will help him in the Republican primaries. Maybe in a general it might work better, but in a South Carolina Republican primary?
Illegal Immigration:
Well, Ted and Marco, who are my number two and number one guys in this process, squared off hard on this one issue of seeming divergence. Cruz’s attack is as it’s always been: Slap Rubio with the Gang of Eight. Can’t fault the man for doing what works. Rubio, though, counter-punched hard. He essentially called Cruz a typical politician who in committee moved for amnesty and more visas but then on the floor fought it on just those counts. I guess we shall see how well this can be substantiated, but it was a hard rebuke against the one politician who is working hard to pretend he isn’t one. I’m looking to you, my fellow Ricochetti, to fact-check all of thi, for me. Of final note: Jeb! tried to pull a Christie after this heated Rubio v. Cruz, but like a novice he read the stage directions before delivering the line, by telling us he was going to pull a Christie and slam the Senators for their Senate talk. It was weak, and he lacked all the contempt and bluster that let Christie carry out that nonsense attack.
So let’s get down to the individual men.
Ben Carson: I say this every time I write about him. I just love this guy. If they made a plush doll of him I would buy it and hug it every day. I don’t think Ben has made any headway, sadly. But he made one good point, and had by far my favorite line of the night. The point he made was that judgement is more important when facing new circumstances than experience, because by definition no one could have any experience of a new situation. It was a good defense for his lack of experience, though it could be argued that experience builds wisdom. The line of the night was when he was asked to say something hard for people to hear, something that’s not PC. After a long ramble, he came to it. I shall paraphrase, “America’s problem isn’t evil rich people, but rather an irresponsible and evil government!” Ha! Beautiful.
John Kasich: You can’t see this, but I’m just shaking my head at the man right now. My head-shaking, I think, sums him up the best. New Hampshire was his moment, and it’s all downhill from there. I honestly can’t say anything about him because he said nothing of note or merit. His dad was a Democrat, Democrats like him, and he is running for the Republican nomination. Good luck. pal. Keep Ohio functioning. It’s a good state, you seem a fine governor.
Jeb!: Fourth place was not a bad result in New Hampshire. I doubt he will do better in South Carolina. He did, though, finally figure out how to stand up to Trump. But even at doing this he’s less good than Marco Rubio. Jeb! is like a 10-year-old luxury car. Sure, it’s well built, has leather seats, and cruise control, but Marco is a brand new model with better suspension, faster acceleration, and a sweet paint job. Now, I have a note here that says, “Jeb! said that people should vote for the most conservative governor or senator that can win.” Did he actually say that? With Marco standing right there? The same Marco that leads against Hillary in all the polls? Someone check that, because if he did, that is probably the biggest unforced error of the night.
Ted Cruz: He was good tonight, but not that great overall. His exchange with Rubio on immigration was tough, but I can’t tell if he came out the winner. All Rubio has to do on that front is hold steady, because that’s his one weakness against Cruz. On foreign policy, domestic policy, Ted is nothing special. He was, though, very good about discussing the precedent of judicial nominations and confirmations during election years, and he didn’t let the moderators’ ignorance get in the way, which we all know has tripped up past nominees. Cruz is a solid guy. I think he is more politician than he pretends to be, but I’m not offended by that.
Marco Rubio: Full disclosure: I love Marco Rubio. I really do. I think he is the bee’s knees. Why do I love him so? One, his power to articulate and explain ideas is one of the best if not the best in the party right now, certainly in the current field of nominees. Second, he knows foreign policy and cares deeply about it. When the moderators asked Trump and Jeb! about the three things they would ask about of their advisors about international affairs, Trump said a bunch of nonsense, Jeb! then said that he would have plans, which was basically more articulate nonsense than Trump’s. But Rubio nailed it down hard: China, Russia, and Iran. He gave a clear answer, had specifics. The man has a vision of the whole chess board. He sees it all. I’m not saying here he’s a genius or anything like that. But he sees that it is all connected and that you have to play the whole game, not just parts of it. Above all else, this makes me have confidence in him the most, because when it comes to foreign affairs, the President has the most unilateral powers imaginable under our constitution. On the domestic front, we have checks and balances galore. Elect a solid Republican House and Senate and with Rubio we will have as good an immigration policy as we would under Cruz or Trump. I can’t say the same about foreign policy with Cruz, who to me never seems to say much about it of distinction. Cruz is mostly bluster on this issue, and don’t even get me started on Trump’s foreign policy.
Donald Trump: Let’s get started. The man is a walking foreign policy disaster in the making. He all but says we should make alliance with Russia! His populist economics will do nothing but antagonize our allies. He shows no grasp of understanding how hard we have worked to maintain the world order that gives us prosperity and ensures freedom. I am in despair over this man. I think, “Maybe he is toning it down, maybe he won’t be so bad,” and then he gives populist rants like his on trade tonight, and his Iraq War and 9/11 arguments, and all I can see is a long dark future for freedom in the world if he’s elected. Honestly, I think Hillary might be better, and that very thought makes my head hurt.
What did you guys think? Can Trump be stopped? Is Marco making a comeback? Will Jim Gilmore win a brokered convention? Let me and the rest of Ricochet know.
Published in Elections, General
JM, I will give you some props. I do think there were several times that Cruz looked awful and disingenuous. I put Carson #1 last night because he was the only one that came off as an adult who could lead a nation. I think I put Bush 2nd and that is saying something coming from me. The big winners last night were Hillary and Bernie. We have and epic opportunity this cycle and have sent in the B team.
I don’t speak Spanish, though I studied it in college. Even I would know enough to answer Rubio in Spanish. Saying a few words doesn’t mean that you speak the language. Also, there was a lot of cross talk going on right then. It wasn’t a very noticeable moment.
You may be right. I think those of us in the chat room may have been influenced by Peter’s immediately confirming that Cruz does not speak Spanish.
Fully agree that I don’t like Rubio’s tax plan, but I think politically his answer was very strong.
V, we are in agreement on the tax plans. Ms. Strassel’s question was a land mine and Rubio stepped on it.
Cruz attacked Rubio over the Univision interview and Rubio claimed Cruz didn’t understand the interview so Cruz resoonded in Spanish.
I think Rubio could win this whole thing, but as long as he can’t handle a smart reporter’s question and refuses to address the immigration mess we are stuck with this 3 way tie in a race to the bottom.
Brent, were you not in the chat room when Peter Robinson confirmed that Cruz does not speak Spanish?
It may be good for Cruz that he did not actually claim to speak the language but only threw out a few words in it, since he has therefore not made another false claim on this issue. It’s all too easy for someone to challenge Cruz to go on Univision and demonstrate his Spanish language skills or lack thereof.
That was definitely one of the oddest moments of the debate. Rubio’s point that Cruz’s position on immigration has been fluid and that he’s hardly been a purist was valid, but not sure what the Spanish language point gained him–unless it was a kind of dog whistle to Spanish speaking audiences.
My guess is that Rubio would have gone on to say that Cruz was misrepresenting his statements, but got cut off.
Lucy, I don’t know how much or how well Cruz speaks Spanish because I don’t, but I can personally attest that he at least speaks some and has done so in Texas. I am not qualified to determine what is fluency.
By most accounts the Spanish from Cruz was grammatically incorrect and the pronunciation was terrible. Peter Robinson during the debate mentioned that his wife, a Cuban, tried speaking to Cruz in Spanish when they met and he had no idea what she was saying. I don’t think Ted’s Spanish impressed anyone who speaks Spanish, and I do think that Rubio said that as a not so subtle dog whistle to Hispanic voters.
The more I hear Trump, the worse it gets – we went to a popular local Mexican restaurant Friday night- I asked the Mexican waiter his opinion – he said, “That yellow-haired guy? You’ve got to be kidding! You cannot force another country build a wall and pay for it – that’s war talk…Hispanics are doing the jobs that Americans don’t want to do – period. We are pounding the nails, cleaning the houses, cleaning up landscapes, look around….deporting 11 million people realistic?” He said all elections promise the world – even my country. We’re thankful for this one – believe me.”
My physical therapist is South African – educated here – she is applying for legal status, but said “the path for “entertainers” is wide open – medical professionals not so much – it is very complicated…I may have to get married!” I said what?? She said a client married to become legal, then divorced and married 2 more times to legalize two more people – I said I hope in your case, you are kidding-and well…start telling jokes…..
A Hilary or Bernie would be a worse nightmare than I could imagine – it would be Trump for me for sure (a last resort) – but I am hoping people will start doing their homework and realizing no one is perfect – we don’t need perfect – our country is in trouble – and we need one of these guys to get us in the right direction again, and beat Hilary.
I kind of doubt it. I suspect that there was supposed to be a followup that went, “In fact, what I said on Univision was . . . ” that never got said.
What scares me the most about last night was the optics. I watched the previous Dem debate and while it was filled with fanciful communist rhetoric it was very civilized. It was two skilled politicians vying for who is best to carry the 21st century Marxist message into America with a SCOTUS now on the precipice of rubber stamping the end of the experiment. We can all hate it, but the optics of the democrat debate were very good.
Our debate last night was pitiful where Ben Carson ran away with it and at certain times Kasich looked measured like a potential president while the rest of them took turns coming unhinged. I thought the overall performance last night was disgraceful. I realize that Rubio has the evangelical vote locked up because he fills lake Ricochet and walks on it. He could be a contender, but his performance combined with the rest of the so-called front runners did nothing to help. CBS did a nice job last night and I think all of them save Carson blew it with Trump self immolating.
I realize there will be much joy over Trump’s folly, but when the guy in front, in the news, does that it reflects bad on the entire group and movement. I think it was a bad night.
I didn’t watch the debate, I was passing a kidney stone (no, really). Considering that meant I didn’t have to listen to Trump, though, I’d call that a net win for the evening.
Valiuth, I’m adding my thanks for the great recap. Agree with your assessments 100%.
Consider yourself lucky. I hope you are feeling better today and on the mend.
This is actually what the Socialists did to stop the National Front in the last election regional in France. They told their party members to stand down in the regions that might fall to the National Front and let the Conservatives win. And the Conservatives won. It was an impressive thing to see. That none of these men seem to care more about the country than their campaigns tells me that they just don’t believe the country’s really in as much trouble as they say, and deep down don’t think a Trump or a Democrat presidency would be that damaging. Doesn’t it to you?
Oh, goodness. Is that as bad as they say? Are you okay?
Are you sure? I thought it was deliberate and aimed at getting Cruz to speak Spanish — the point being that speaking Spanish is not viewed as an asset by most of the electorate, which has had it with hearing “Press 1 for English.” Maybe I’m overthinking it.
Seriously? I just finished watching it and all I could think was, “Dr. Carson, please get off the stage, you know this isn’t going anywhere and you’re sucking up everyone’s time.”
What did he say or do that made you think that?
This also doesn’t make sense to me, unless you’re using “evangelical” in a different sense than the common one.
A lot of Cruz’s strategy so far in the campaign has been focused on maximizing evangelical turnout, and I think Iowa proved that he was doing that effectively (whether that’s a winning general election strategy is another matter).
Valiuth, I wish the title of your fine post were true but I think we’re still somewhere between surreal and reality TV.
Can Trump step on two third rails of GOP politics — Bush failed to protect/Bush lied — and win a Republican primary in South Carolina?
Betting markets jumped overnight … for Trump!
Ben Domenech persuasively notes that Republicans have failed to reckon with the failures of George W. Bush administration.
But were Trump’s bloviations last night a reckoning or a wrecking ball?
Rubio was simply superb. Response on immigration was close to candid and effective. Finally connected his tax policy (not my preference) with his very moving sentiments about family (so refreshingly NON-Cuomo). Even his petty pointless snark about Cruz’s Spanish — translations are available — was delivered very effectively. Defense of W probably seeded a little guilt amongst the Bush camp followers.
Cruz was solid, smart and combative. Again, though, he was nailed by a very targeted immigration question. Does he imagine these are going away? We are seeing his rhetorical ceiling every week. He can’t shake the smarm. Made the mistake of watching the debate with a large group of GOP ladies (usually a delight of course) after teaching a Colorado caucus training. The distaff “creep” factor is simply there. Don’t know how you shake it.
My takeaway: If Cruz, Rubio and Bush cannot carpetbomb Trump over the eternity of this week and drag him towards 20%, it’s the beginning of the end.
Yah, passing a kidney stone might be better than hearing Trump.
Another thing about Kasich. I took a respite break once during the debate, and I would’ve sworn I heard him say we should invade Sweden through the bathroom door. And I thought, that actually makes sense for Ohio. Being an industrial state, Ohio could use Sweden’s iron ore and tungsten.
Am I wrong here: The breadth and depth of Carson’s appeal and respect amongst Republicans are not remotely captured by the polls and his endorsement could be, yes, huge. Particularly for Rubio.
Well, as much of a dog’s breakfast as it was, and I don’t know how the optics go out to the wider electorate, at times last night, I thought – this is awful we look like fools, and this is necessary we must hash this stuff out and at least we do hash it out.
I think it moved me into the Rubio camp, I’ve been disappointed since Walker dropped out, I thought he had a great narrative and a reasonable set of policy proposals, his loss meant I’ve not had a single politico I cared about and I’ve not been happy with this trainwreck of a primary.
I think the Spanish thing was brilliant, however, I don’t speak Spanish, but even I could tell that Cruz was basically faking it, and as Claire said, it was him, not Marco who used it on TV – and if it was a dog whistle all the better, it shows Marco has a very political streak which he will need.
As I said to Mrs. Salieri over rolls and tea this morning, I don’t like all of Rubio’s policy positions, and I don’t like his stance on immigration, but given the choices before us, I think he is the only candidate that has a grasp of the problems, articulates 90-95% conservative solutions, and while a politician, isn’t dripping sanctimony and smarm like Cruz.
I will see if more emerges to change my mind.
It’s…. bad. I’ve taken kidney shots on the ice rink before and p!ssed all the colors of the rainbow afterwards. It’s worse than that.
It feels like someone slowly twisting a stiletto into your side for 10 hours straight.
Like. Your statement, not the long dark future.
The big question is how many people in South Carolina saw this debate, and if they did does it change anything about how they will vote?
I’m not sure how beneficial these debates are for the candidates and there have been so many it’s turning into a reality show. Rubio did a good job in this debate but how is his ground game in South Carolina, will he get his people out? These primaries do come down to retail politics, kissing babies and potluck dinners, pressing the flesh and the like. We shall see
Rubio had two important tasks to achieve. Not to appear scripted or robotic like the early part of the last debate. And to go on the offensive. Rubio achieved that. Like a skilled boxer he was comfortable under attack and in his element when attacking. But he also looked more presidential than the other candidates on stage especially on foreign policy where all of the other candidates floundered.
Most of Trump’s answers, as is his technique, are first vacuous and incoherent and then leap to a topic totally unrelated to cover up the fact that he hasn’t a clue about how to answer the original question asked. Those of you who recorded last night’s debate, replay his non-answer on dealing with Social Security and Medicare and you’ll see exactly what I mean.
Much has been said already, here and elsewhere on the web, about Trump’s unhinged meltdown about Iraq and 9/11. He stopped short of positing that George W. Bush had explosives planted in the Twin Towers…but it was quite the moment. He may be conferring with Code Pink on national security matters (I realize that could be a conspiracy theory). I know he believes he’s the smartest human being on the stage, or in the auditorium, or in America but Trump clearly hasn’t a clue about all the events that led up to the attack on 9/11 (or on other major topics) which indicates to me that he doesn’t read much or has any intellectual curiosity except about what people are saying about him which he then takes to Twitter to attack them back. Anything beyond 140 characters of course would be a challenge, just as formulating a coherent verbal response that’s longer than two syntactically-challenged sentences is clearly a challenge and painful to hear and watch.
Cruz does come across as the crafty lawyer and actually appears more scripted than Rubio to me – on his weak, half-baked Middle East plan and his constant harangue about the Gang of Eight which I think I’ve memorized by now which dare I say it, sounds a bit robotic. When Cruz wants to sound tough and emphatic, it sounds like he’s rehearsed it often in front of a mirror before the debate. Rubio appears less rehearsed and more genuine and in the moment…especially last night.
Dr. Carson just needs to go away. The man has no business running for president. Yes, he’s nice. He’s polite. But as president, the White House staff would have to wake him up to make a speech that then puts the nation to sleep. He will need more than the insomniac vote (and many of them who are tuning into “Coast-to-Coast” are already supporting Trump).
Yes, Jeb had a good night but Rubio argues better for George W. than Jeb does which further shows how weak Jeb is.
Right now, we have a crisis in this country. Central European trophy wives are stealing American trophy wives’ jobs! Elect me, and I will build a wall to keep Central European trophy wives out of this country, and I’ll make the Czech Republic, Poland, and Ukraine pay for it!