Lousy Arguments for Abortion

 

shutterstock_235463509Some arguments for the moral permissibility of abortion are pretty lousy. I’m talking about the interesting arguments from analogy that purport to establish the moral permissibility of all abortions even if an unborn baby really is a human being. Arguments from analogy employ a certain form, or pattern of reasoning along the following lines:

  1. A is like B in that both have property X;
  2. A has property Y; so
  3. B also has property Y.

There are various ways to evaluate an argument from analogy, but here are the three big ones:

  1. What are the relevant known similarities (i.e., X) of A and B?
  2. How relevant are the similarities?
  3. What are the relevant dissimilarities?

(For more on this, I recommend you consult my own sources: The Power of Logic and Introduction to Logic. Hint: You can buy older editions on Amazon for a zillionth of the price, and the older editions are about 99% as good.)

The Violinist Analogy: Argument

You may already be familiar with the infamous violinist argument from Judith Jarvis Thomson:

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, “Look, we’re sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you–we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist is now plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it’s only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.”

To cut to the chase, the argument from analogy is this:

  1. Unplugging yourself from the violinist is like abortion in that both lead to the death of an innocent person;
  2. Unplugging yourself from the violinist is morally permissible;
  3. Therefore, abortion is also morally permissible.

The Violinist Analogy: Evaluation

What are the relevant known similarities?

  • Both liberate an innocent person from the encumbering life-support system of another innocent person;
  • The encumbering life-support system encumbers the first innocent person for about nine months; and
  • Both lead to the death of that other innocent person.

How relevant are the similarities?

  • They’re pretty relevant.

What are the relevant dissimilarities?

  • Abortion terminates a natural process, not a radical medical procedure.
  • In almost all cases, pregnant women are not nearly as as encumbered as the person in the violinist story.
  • Unplugging yourself from the violinist does not kill an innocent human being; it only allows him to die. But the act of abortion kills an innocent human being.
  • The violinist story presumes kidnapping, but most pregnancies are the result of free choice, if not free choice to become pregnant then at least free choice to engage in the sort of behavior that has the same result. (This difference doesn’t work in the minority of pregnancies resulting from rape.)

And the verdict is: As an argument for the permissibility of all abortions, this argument is terrible. (It might have some strength for abortion in the case of rape, mitigated somewhat by the other differences.)

The Zombie Analogy: Argument

One of my students who is involved with debating told me that the argument won a big debating competition. (I think it was the student debating competition: the big international one.) Here’s my attempt to reconstruct the argument based on what what he told me:

Killing a brain-eating zombie is like abortion in that both acts involve the killing of a parasitic human being.

Killing a zombie is morally permissible.

So abortion is also morally permissible

The Zombie Analogy: Evaluation

What are the relevant similarities?

  • In both cases, a human is killed.
  • In both cases, the human lives off of another human being’s body.
  • In both cases, the behavior of the human is morally innocent, acting on biological necessity rather than free choice.

How relevant are the similarities?

  • Very!

What are the relevant dissimilarities?

  • A zombie is not a normal human being.  It’s probably not actually a human being at all. Assuming it’s even a living thing, it might be better thought of as a different species.
  • A zombie, even if we consider it to be human, is an unnatural and severely malfunctioning one. But an unborn baby behaves in the way natural and proper for a human infant at that stage of life.
  • An unborn baby lives off its mother without hurting her. Zombies kill you and eat your brains. (A difference not applicable to situations where the life of the mother is threatened, such as ectopic pregnancies.)

And the verdict is: This argument is terrible! It might have some strength with respect to abortions to save the life of the mother. (And if you replace the zombie with a blood-sucking but non-lethal vampire, the argument might have some strength with respect to abortions to preserve the health of the mother.)

But as an argument for the moral permissibility of all abortions, the argument depends on ignoring enormous relevant differences between babies and zombies.

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  1. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk: Are fetuses genetically distinct individuals (outside of twinning?) Yes. Are they alive? Yes. Is it morally permissible to kill such a creature, particularly in the earliest stages of its development? Unambiguously, yes. Nature does this of its own accord quite frequently for a variety of reasons.

    Nature kills full grown adults of its own accord quite frequently.

    • #61
  2. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Western Chauvinist:

    Majestyk: There are a set of social markers that we associate with personhood which I believe are additive.

    Right, which is why ethics becomes a minefield when you’re arguing “personhood,” which is your argument, not mine.

    I’m starting my moral reasoning from what we can objectively agree upon. An organism which is alive and has a complete, unique human genome is a human. Yes or no?

    It is human in the sense that it has DNA which marks it as such.

    Nobody denies this.

    What we are discussing here is the relevant moral boundary between possessing simple human-ness and conflating such human-ness (at the most basic level of genetic ID) with investing any organism that happens to have human DNA with the same level of rights that we associate with people.

    It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”  It’s the flip side of Peter Singer’s argument which is also far too arbitrary in the sense that he’s arguing for a strictly utilitarian approach to reproduction and reproductive rights, up to and including infanticide.

    • #62
  3. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Frank Soto:

    Majestyk: Are fetuses genetically distinct individuals (outside of twinning?) Yes. Are they alive? Yes. Is it morally permissible to kill such a creature, particularly in the earliest stages of its development? Unambiguously, yes. Nature does this of its own accord quite frequently for a variety of reasons.

    Nature kills full grown adults of its own accord quite frequently.

    It is equally morally permissible to prevent such pregnancies from occurring in the first place via contraception – and I would argue, even entirely permissible to use the “Plan B” morning after pill.

    Far less morally defensible is Kermit Gosnell, for obvious reasons.

    • #63
  4. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Majestyk: It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”

    You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m just laying the ethical foundation of my argument in a way we can all agree is objectively true.

    • #64
  5. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk:

    Frank Soto:

    Majestyk: Are fetuses genetically distinct individuals (outside of twinning?) Yes. Are they alive? Yes. Is it morally permissible to kill such a creature, particularly in the earliest stages of its development? Unambiguously, yes. Nature does this of its own accord quite frequently for a variety of reasons.

    Nature kills full grown adults of its own accord quite frequently.

    It is equally morally permissible to prevent such pregnancies from occurring in the first place via contraception – and I would argue, even entirely permissible to use the “Plan B” morning after pill.

    Your position can be perfectly coherent, I am simply pointing out that you are engaging in the exact error that Augustine pointed out in his post.

    Arguments from analogy are best made with clear limits and distinctions.

    • #65
  6. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Frank Soto:Your position can be perfectly coherent, I am simply pointing out that you are engaging in the exact error that Augustine pointed out in his post.

    Arguments from analogy are best made with clear limits and distinctions.

    Ultimately, how these values manifest themselves is in the policies they generate.  If you think that human life – no matter the form – is sacred then no policy other than a ban on abortion will be acceptable.

    Western Chauvinist:

    Majestyk: It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”

    You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m just laying the ethical foundation of my argument in a way we can all agree is objectively true.

    I concede the objective truth that a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human.

    It is also objectively true that this:

    hatched-blastocyst

    trouble

    • #66
  7. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk: Ultimately, how these values manifest themselves is in the policies they generate. If you think that human life – no matter the form – is sacred then no policy other than a ban on abortion will be acceptable.

    Human life can be sacred without it meaning that human life can never be taken.  See my post on the stupidity of Christian pacifism.

    For example, I am a Christian, and I am in favor of exceptions to abortion bans when the health of the mother is at risk.  Though I believe the life of the child is sacred, so is the life of the mother.  It is a case of conflicting rights.

    Those who aren’t in favor of such an exception generally doubt that there is ever a real scenario where an abortion is needed to save the life of a mother. Such people aren’t arguing in bad faith, and may become convinced through the presentation of evidence.

    • #67
  8. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk:

    Frank Soto:Your position can be perfectly coherent, I am simply pointing out that you are engaging in the exact error that Augustine pointed out in his post.

    Arguments from analogy are best made with clear limits and distinctions.

    Ultimately, how these values manifest themselves is in the policies they generate. If you think that human life – no matter the form – is sacred then no policy other than a ban on abortion will be acceptable.

    Western Chauvinist:

    Majestyk: It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”

    You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m just laying the ethical foundation of my argument in a way we can all agree is objectively true.

    I concede the objective truth that a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human.

    It is also objectively true that this:

    hatched-blastocyst

    trouble

    An interesting angle to take, as atheists generally have a terrible track record when arguing what level of human is enough to entitle you to life.

    shutterstock_130699232

    • #68
  9. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Frank Soto:An interesting angle to take, as atheists generally have a terrible track record when arguing what level of human is enough to entitle you to life.

    shutterstock_130699232

    To which atheists are you referring?  Unless you’re alleging that the 90% abortion rate of Down’s Syndrome fetuses is solely to be laid at the feet of 7% of the population.

    That’s ridiculous on its face.  Catholics, Evangelicals, Lutherans and people of every faith persuasion are free to lie to pollsters all day long, but when the rubber hits the road, they’re doing something which is outside of their stated values – again, unless you think that Down’s disproportionately strikes liberals/atheists or selects for ideology somehow.

    What I do know is this: I’m not smart enough to tell parents what they should or shouldn’t do in regard to planning and creating their own families.

    I think I’ve argued effectively that parents are subjecting these children to a form of market test – and that they are failing that test.

    Do you propose to gainsay their judgment, and on what basis?

    I am glad that I haven’t been faced with such a moral quandary and think that people should be encouraged to make decisions within the context of “personal responsibility.”  It’s one thing if they have a child with Down’s Syndrome and send that child to a private school which they pay for, privately funded doctors that they pay for and so on.

    That is definitely not what happens in most cases.  In most cases, children with Down’s Syndrome become wards of the state.

    It would be nice if an insurance market existed which could help defray people’s costs against having a child with Down’s Syndrome or other expensive birth defects, but the Government is the de facto insurer in these situations, so parents don’t have to worry about it.  There’s a perverse incentive if that you can have other people subsidize your child.

    Certainly, I don’t view that as being the preferred conservative policy prescription.

    • #69
  10. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk: To which atheists are you referring? Unless you’re alleging that the 90% abortion rate of Down’s Syndrome fetuses is solely to be laid at the feet of 7% of the population. That’s ridiculous on its face. Catholics, Evangelicals, Lutherans and people of every faith persuasion are free to lie to pollsters all day long, but when the rubber hits the road, they’re doing something which is outside of their stated values – again, unless you think that Down’s disproportionately strikes liberals/atheists or selects for ideology somehow.

    We are arguing about which idealogy is superior.  Countering that people are bad at following the superior one is not a tremendous argument.

    Majestyk: What I do know is this: I’m not smart enough to tell parents what they should or shouldn’t do in regard to planning and creating their own families.

    Are you smart enough to tell people not to murder?  Are you smart enough to tell them not to steal?

    • #70
  11. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Majestyk:It is equally morally permissible to prevent such pregnancies from occurring in the first place via contraception – and I would argue, even entirely permissible to use the “Plan B” morning after pill.

    Far less morally defensible is Kermit Gosnell, for obvious reasons.

    What’s obvious about it?  If it’s okay to kill the fetus (it’s not like it has a name yet), who cares if it’s at 3 weeks or 8.5 months, or how it’s done?

    • #71
  12. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Frank Soto:

    We are arguing about which idealogy is superior. Countering that people are bad at following the superior one is not a tremendous argument.

    People lying to themselves and engaging in hypocrisy are somehow superior?

    Majestyk: What I do know is this: I’m not smart enough to tell parents what they should or shouldn’t do in regard to planning and creating their own families.

    Are you smart enough to tell people not to murder? Are you smart enough to tell them not to steal?

    I don’t have to.  They apparently do that quite well on their own with somewhat rare exceptions.

    This is the fallacy of presuming that the existence of a law somehow transfers the moral lesson which premises that law to the population.  It puts the cart before the horse – do laws prevent theft and murder, or do laws reflect the underlying morality of the vast majority of the population?

    Of course it’s the latter and not the former.  No laws could prevent society from collapsing into barbarism and chaos if its members weren’t at least nominally moral to begin with.

    • #72
  13. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Majestyk:

    Frank Soto:

    We are arguing about which idealogy is superior. Countering that people are bad at following the superior one is not a tremendous argument.

    People lying to themselves and engaging in hypocrisy are somehow superior?

    Though poorly framed in the above sentence, yes, it’s superior to nihilism.

    Majestyk: What I do know is this: I’m not smart enough to tell parents what they should or shouldn’t do in regard to planning and creating their own families.

    Are you smart enough to tell people not to murder? Are you smart enough to tell them not to steal?

    I don’t have to. They apparently do that quite well on their own with somewhat rare exceptions.

    Flatly wrong.  Very common and notable exceptions exist, and have always existed.

    This is the fallacy of presuming that the existence of a law somehow transfers the moral lesson which premises that law to the population. It puts the cart before the horse – do laws prevent theft and murder, or do laws reflect the underlying morality of the vast majority of the population?

    Of course it’s the latter and not the former. No laws could prevent society from collapsing into barbarism and chaos if its members weren’t at least nominally moral to begin with.

    You seem to draw no distinction between laws and morals.  Perhaps you believe there is no useful distinction?  I might infer from your words that you believe we are born moral, and debate is worthless.  The obvious problem being that people’s throughout the world clearly hold very different frameworks of morality.

    Deciding which is best would seem to be of significant importance.

    • #73
  14. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Did everyone here read my post from a year ago?

    • #74
  15. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Frank Soto:Though poorly framed in the above sentence, yes, it’s superior to nihilism.

    Are you saying that I’m a nihilist?  I’m unclear.  Who are these straw man nihilists and what is the nothing that they’ve proposed?  Did Nietzsche enter the conversation while I wasn’t looking?

    Flatly wrong. Very common and notable exceptions exist, and have always existed.

    I’m curious to know what they are, being as they aren’t immediately leaping to mind.

    You seem to draw no distinction between laws and morals. Perhaps you believe there is no useful distinction? I might infer from your words that you believe we are born moral, and debate is worthless.

    Oh, I very much do believe there is a distinction – there can be moral and immoral law and morally neutral law.  Morality can sometimes lead you to places where laws have no real say.  The vast majority of life is like that.

    Deciding which is best would seem to be of significant importance.

    Of course.  Would you concede that perhaps an analysis which centered on the tradeoffs involved might be warranted, or are there no tradeoffs to be considered?  At least, none so lofty as the “superior” position might have us believe.

    I don’t think it’s an accident that we ended up with the society that we have and the consequent body of laws.  There’s an element of emergent order to it which has some value, even if it doesn’t reflect the moral preferences of Christians with complete clarity.

    The nice thing about it is that we can modify it if we find that conditions change.

    • #75
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Majestyk:

    Frank Soto:Your position can be perfectly coherent, I am simply pointing out that you are engaging in the exact error that Augustine pointed out in his post.

    Arguments from analogy are best made with clear limits and distinctions.

    Ultimately, how these values manifest themselves is in the policies they generate. If you think that human life – no matter the form – is sacred then no policy other than a ban on abortion will be acceptable.

    Western Chauvinist:

    Majestyk: It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”

    You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m just laying the ethical foundation of my argument in a way we can all agree is objectively true.

    I concede the objective truth that a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human.

    It is also objectively true that this:

    hatched-blastocyst

    trouble

    Objectively true only if nature or man intervenes to stop its development. But, this is jumping ahead in the case I’m making.

    • #76
  17. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    We’ve agreed that a human is a living creature with a complete, unique human genome.

    Next question. Is there something about innocent humans that “merits uncompromising special protections, which does not allow for exceptions?” — Robert Spitzer, Ten Universal Principals

    This is the question of transcendence. The very fact that we’re having this conversation would seem to suggest, “yes.”

    • #77
  18. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:You argued above that embryos and fetuses essentially have the rights attendant to a fully fledged human citizen because: Watson and Crick, unless I’m misinterpreting your response.

    I believe you were indeed misinterpreting.  Being an individual organism with human DNA is a sufficient condition for being a human being.

    That alone does not guaranty rights.

    To conclude that the unborn child has rights you need the additional premise that all human beings have rights.  That’s the premise you should be focusing on.

    And you should never suggest that the embryo isn’t human.  It muddies the waters.

    More importantly, when you suggest that the reason an embryo lacks rights is that it’s not human, it entails or at least suggests that all humans do have rights.

    • #78
  19. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:I concede the objective truth that a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human.

    Yes, thank you.

    You should never have said in # 45 that “the fetus has superficial characteristics that appear human” and that “the thing that makes us human in my opinion is” more than the fetus has.  Your view is that not all human beings have rights–not that the unborn child is at any stage or other a non-human.

    • #79
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:

    Majestyk:

    That the introduction of man’s will into that situation is somehow a fell influence and not considered a part of Nature baffles me.

    Rocks kill people naturally. If we introduce the will of Al, who kills Bob with a rock, are you baffled by my estimation that Al’s act is morally impermissible?

    No. If Al kills Bob with a rock, people are going to complain about that because Bob is a person who has rights; a person with relationships – a name: “Bob.”

    Then your remark about the introduction of a will into an otherwise natural scenario was completely irrelevant. The only relevant question is the humanity of the embryo.

    There is such a thing as justifiable homicide.

    I can think of plenty of categories of abortion that fall under that heading.

    I can only think of one myself, but in any case the point to be made here is that the aforementioned remark of yours was still irrelevant.

    • #80
  21. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Frank Soto: For example, I am a Christian, and I am in favor of exceptions to abortion bans when the health of the mother is at risk. Though I believe the life of the child is sacred, so is the life of the mother. It is a case of conflicting rights.

    Did you mean “health” of the mother, or “life” of the mother, Frank? “Health” can be very loosely interpreted to include “mental health.”

    BTW, even the Catholic Church would agree with you in the case of “life of the mother.” The ethical reasoning to resolve this conflict of rights is to save the mother by removing the child, without the express intent of killing the child. This is what happens in the case of ectopic pregnancy, for example. These surgeries are 100% permissible at Catholic hospitals.

    Abortion demands dead babies. The fatality of the child in this case is not an exception to the immorality of abortion. It is an accident of saving the mother’s life.

    • #81
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:Man is but a piker on the field of abortion. Nature is cruel and life is frequently a choice between tragedies.

    How precisely this is meant to support the conclusion that killing humans is morally permissible (in situations other than those in which killing one saves another) is still a mystery to me.

    You should stick to your point: that not all humans have rights.

    Would metaphysics suggest that only the most superficial characteristics define humanity?

    No.  Metaphysics suggests precisely what you conceded in # 66: The unborn organism is, from conception, human.

    If you want to talk about metaphysics, you might start by telling us what you think a person is exactly, or why you think only persons have rights.

    Genetic uniqueness is not the only test for personhood – if it is, we have been neglecting the personhood of an infinite number of spontaneously aborted people.

    Neither I nor any of hundreds of pro-lifers I’ve ever met neglects the personhood of those people.

    No, it’s not the only test.  But some of us think it’s a sufficient condition for personhood.

    For my part, I don’t much care about personhood when it comes to discussing ethics.  I simply happen to believe that all human beings have rights.

    Human beings [Human persons] have rights that we can discover in nature. Those rights are not absolute.

    What sort of rights do you think they have, and how do we discover them in nature?

    • #82
  23. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:An objection with two premises: That she is killing a human being, and that human beings ought not to be killed.

    She is not killing a human being.

    Yes, she is.  (See your own remarks in # 66.)

    In later paragraphs (cleaning up your logic a bit) you suggest that there are three markers of personhood which a fetus lacks: having a name, having a unique genetic signature (in the case of clones), and having caring social relations.

    I don’t think you’re going to say that each of these is a necessary condition for personhood.  (And you apparently deny as much with respect to the first marker in # 56.)

    Maybe you don’t know this, but there are millions of weeks-old embryos that have those social relations.  In many cases unborn babies do have names conferred by their parents.

    Anyway, I really think the more important things are these: What do you think a person is exactly, and why do you think only persons have rights?

    • #83
  24. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    It seems far too arbitrary to me to simply say “this has human DNA: protect it at all costs.”

    I object.

    First, what makes you think I or Western Chauvinist or anyone else who believes that all humans have rights believes it arbitrarily?

    Second, it’s a common enough belief, and one you yourself seemed to believe in in # 45 and any other remarks in which you suggest that embryos lack rights because they lack humanity.

    It’s the flip side of Peter Singer’s argument which is also far too arbitrary in the sense that he’s arguing for a strictly utilitarian approach to reproduction and reproductive rights, up to and including infanticide.

    Ah, Singer.  Cicero handled him two thousand years early in a single sentence: We value pleasure because we value ourselves, not vice versa.

    Singer told me he doesn’t think much of Mill as a Utilitarian.  I disagree.  Mill’s Utilitarianism is great.  I could call myself a Utilitarian when I’m thinking of Mill.  (I’m not strictly a Utilitarian at any time.)

    • #84
  25. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Saint Augustine:

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:An objection with two premises: That she is killing a human being, and that human beings ought not to be killed.

    She is not killing a human being.

    Yes, she is. (See your own remarks in # 66.)

    No.  She’s creating spare parts for herself out of her own genetic material without any intention of creating a human being.  In this particular hypothetical, I think the intent matters.  Is she creating a clone of herself to be implanted in her womb, so it can develop into a fetus?  Of course not.  A cloned ovum could not long survive outside of a womb.

    In later paragraphs (cleaning up your logic a bit) you suggest that there are three markers of personhood which a fetus lacks: having a name, having a unique genetic signature (in the case of clones), and having caring social relations.

    Now I feel like you’re being obtuse.  I said there are a host of markers that we use to determine personhood, among them the convention of naming, the woman’s intent, the ability of the fetus to become a person, etc.  Not just 3.  I don’t think I have to comprehensively list them, but here are some tests that might apply:

    Possessing complete and healthy DNA (in the sense that normal development in the womb is possible up to the point of existing outside of the womb sans umbilical cord)

    Possessing the potential to gain sentience. (Pre-sentient infants and highly developed fetuses; not blastocysts)

    Displaying sentience. (The Turing Test is a crude proxy)

    Having at one point possessed sentience. (Perhaps some sentience has been lost in the case of dementia or brain damage; the severity of the damage may imply that the ability to go on living unaided by machines has ceased and the ability to communicate with others has similarly ceased; the ethics of dealing with the severely cognitively disabled or injured varies from culture to culture but seems to improve with increased access to resources.)

    I could go on.  The point is that there are a lot of things that go into this, and it may be easier to define the boundary conditions than it is to completely fill out its contents.

    Maybe you don’t know this, but there are millions of weeks-old embryos that have those social relations. In many cases unborn babies do have names conferred by their parents.

    Being as I have 3 children, yes I do.

    Anyway, I really think the more important things are these: What do you think a person is exactly, and why do you think only persons have rights?

    We can’t grant rights to things that we don’t know exist and only people can have rights (in this context.)

    In the case of the earliest stages of pregnancy, we can’t reliably locate such organisms in order to protect their rights.  It’s a matter of practicality.

    • #85
  26. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Majestyk: woman’s intent

    I always find this line of reasoning disturbing. I know you’re talking about a cloned ovum (a complete outlier in this attempt to reason through the abortion argument). Maybe you’re not saying this, but plenty of people will use it as an argument to abort right up to the due date.

    From an ethical, moral standpoint, the value inherent in a human simply cannot depend on what another human’s intent is toward him. That just gets scary — fast.

    • #86
  27. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Majestyk: We can’t grant rights to things that we don’t know exist and only people can have rights (in this context.)

    This is a straw man. No one is arguing we should track down all unborn children in order to grant them their rights. Pro-lifers are arguing against sanctioning abortion. Big difference.

    • #87
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Saint Augustine:

    Majestyk:

    She is not killing a human being.

    Yes, she is. (See your own remarks in # 66.)

    No. . . .

    I refer you to your own remark in # 66: “I concede the objective truth that a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human.”  Thus you contradict yourself.

    Your intent is relevant to your own words.  Reading your intent charitably, I suppose you’re trying to carve out an exception to that objective truth.  An exception based on intent.

    But intent is not relevant to that objective truth, and doesn’t carve out an exception.  As you say, “a fertilized human egg has human DNA and is human;” this is a sufficient condition for humanity.

    Intent might, however, be relevant to personhood.  But you have yet to give a metaphysics of personhood, and I don’t know how you might work intent into the account.

    • #88
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    In later paragraphs (cleaning up your logic a bit) you suggest that there are [at least] three markers of personhood which a fetus lacks: having a name, having a unique genetic signature (in the case of clones), and having caring social relations.

    I said there are a host of markers that we use to determine personhood, . . .

    You didn’t mention a host [in that comment, although I see now that you mentioned a host in a comment to someone else], but ok; so you think there’s a host of them.  Jolly good.

    Possessing complete and healthy DNA . . .

    Possessing the potential to gain sentience. . . .

    Displaying sentience. . . .

    Having at one point possessed sentience. . . .

    I could go on. The point is that there are a lot of things that go into this, and it may be easier to define the boundary conditions than it is to completely fill out its contents.

    It would still be more important to answer the questions: What do you think a person is exactly, and why do you think only persons have rights?

    In any case, the first two new markers you mention are there for all embryos, and the latter two for late-stage embryos.

    • #89
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk:

    Maybe you don’t know this, but there are millions of weeks-old embryos that have those social relations. In many cases unborn babies do have names conferred by their parents.

    Being as I have 3 children, yes I do.

    Jolly good show!

    Anyway, I really think the more important things are these: What do you think a person is exactly, and why do you think only persons have rights?

    We can’t grant rights to things that we don’t know exist and only people can have rights (in this context.)

    We don’t grant moral rights.  If anyone does that, it’s God.  (And we’re not talking about any other kind of rights.)

    And we do know what exists, from conception: A human being.

    You say “only people can have rights.”  Perhaps, but why?  And what exactly is a person?

    • #90
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