The Wrong Side of Morality

 

Many of my friends are very happy about Friday’s US Supreme Court decision. While I have mixed feelings, I realize that many of them are driven by great love and respect for other people, their dignity, their equality, and their love. And perhaps they’re right to celebrate the Supreme Court’s expansion of the definition of marriage.

A small minority of them, however, undermine their claim to be driven by love and respect when they lash out in hatred, anger, and derisive mockery at Supreme Court justices, or at others who do not share their views. If you write or like a post that calls Justice Thomas a highly unpleasant expletive, for example, the emotion driving you does not seem to be love, and the values guiding you do not seem to be respect or tolerance.

The moral line dividing us does not run between those who think that marriage and dignity are Constitutionally-protected rights and those that think these are issues for Congress or state legislatures. It does not run between those who think the opposite-gender clause must remain in the definition of marriage and those who think it must be removed. The moral line runs within us, between those parts of us that are driven by anger, bigotry, intolerance, and hate, and those that are driven by love and respect for other people, their orientations, and their opinions.

Wherever one stands on the issue, the part of us that wants to mock or condemn the justices who disagreed with us on Friday is probably on the wrong side of that moral line. We should worry less about being on the wrong side of history than about being on the wrong side of morality and human decency.

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  1. user_966256 Member
    user_966256
    @BobThompson

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:Red Feline Ball Diamond Ball:Hey, thanks for calling me hateful, too.Check your progressive tolerance.

    I’m not calling you hateful. In fact, I am sure you are a very nice person.

    What I am calling hateful is the attitudes towards gays that too many people express. Doesn’t it seem amazing that some people can’t see how hateful those attitudes are, and how unkind the person who expresses them appears?

    — You must think we’re all very stupid.

    We would have to define the word “stupid”, BDB! :)

    After we get finished redefining ‘marriage’. Lots of talk about ‘social constructs’ and how they can be formed, undone, redefined, made meaningless, etc.  But by my way of thinking, the conjugal act of reproduction involving the union of a man and a woman is not a social construct, but the social construct of marriage between a man and a woman evolved from that act. Love had little to do with that. Whatever it is that gays do together,  I’m sure this essence is absent.

    So go ahead with redefining your terms.

    • #121
  2. Red Feline Inactive
    Red Feline
    @RedFeline

    Bob Thompson:

    Gil Reich: “Do you think the gay community …” I think our problem isn’t the gay community, it’s the neo-Marxist fascists who have found the SSM issue a useful cudgel. “Will they charge on to destroy …” Some will. I hope the good people on both sides can stop them.

    I think this is what’s taking place since all gays I know as friends and acquaintances seem to be reasonable. Anyone know if the facts with regard to this have been examined, maybe by studying a large cross-section of major urban areas?

    In Canada, the SSM issue has faded into the background, ten years after the Supreme Court ruled on it. The gay area of Toronto is no longer so “out there”. It is still full of nice restaurants and shops, and is a pleasant place to visit. Many gay couples have moved out into the suburbs where they are very welcome as neighbours. Generally speaking, they are great neighbours, keeping their property in excellent condition. They also can be very kind.

    • #122
  3. Red Feline Inactive
    Red Feline
    @RedFeline

    Gil Reich:

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    I gather that you are a lawyer, BDB. … I have no doubt that you are a person with integrity.

    Talk about your non-sequitur. :)

    I didn’t notice that, Gill! An oxymoron, perhaps?

    Och, I really was serious. I have no doubt BDB is someone I would like. I like people who speak their truth, and make me laugh! :)

    • #123
  4. Badderbrau Moderator
    Badderbrau
    @EKentGolding

    Indaba:Gay marriage was unthinkeable just 20 years ao. Just as so many situations have now emerged from the shadows and challenge our current ideas about how life should be.

    Along with attitudes to Gays changing, so have attitudes to Mixed marriage, and what about Pornography. I used to be that porn of any form was banned and forbidden. I think most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine for them to view and they have not turnd into rapists or sex maniacs. So why not other changes to our norms? Gay marriage has been going on in Canada for over a decade. I dont see much changd.

    If you think Gay Marriage is wrong, I say to you that pornography is wrong. Give up pornography – 20 years ago would you have been open about using porn?

    I do not use pornography.   It does appeal to me,  however I realize it is harmful to  my mental, spiritual, moral,  and social health.   May not turn me into a rapist or sex maniac,  but damaging none the less.   So I do not use pornography.  I think the term Gay Marriage  is ludicrous,  and Gay Marriage is a legal fiction, much like Unicorns or Liberal Tolerance.

    I could be wrong,  but I suspect only a small minority of men on Ricochet use pornography.

    • #124
  5. Red Feline Inactive
    Red Feline
    @RedFeline

    Bob Thompson:

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    — You must think we’re all very stupid.

    We would have to define the word “stupid”, BDB! :)

    After we get finished redefining ‘marriage’. Lots of talk about ‘social constructs’ and how they can be formed, undone, redefined, made meaningless, etc. But by my way of thinking, the conjugal act of reproduction involving the union of a man and a woman is not a social construct, but the social construct of marriage between a man and a woman evolved from that act. Love had little to do with that. Whatever it is that gays do together, I’m sure this essence is absent.

    So go ahead with redefining your terms.

    Marriage has been defined as many things throughout history. Often it was a political action to unite two families. Or an economic action to unite two fortunes.

    We’ve had lots of discussions on Ricochet as to what marriage actually is. Some think it is solely for reproduction. Some point out that is not the case when two people marry when they are beyond their reproductive years. Society is presently redefining marriage to fit in with the present social construct that people live in.

    • #125
  6. Badderbrau Moderator
    Badderbrau
    @EKentGolding

    Didn’t mean to post twice — thought my other post had eloped with another post.

    • #126
  7. Howellis Inactive
    Howellis
    @ManWiththeAxe

    The word “bigot” has been tossed around a bit on this thread. To my mind, and regardless of what the dictionary might say, a bigot is someone who has an unreasonable hatred or negative feeling toward someone because of the latter’s membership in a group, especially a group based on ethnicity or religion.

    I really hate the people who belong to ISIS. I hate every last one of them. I don’t believe that hatred is unreasonable. I have negative feelings toward illegal aliens, although I know some immigrants who are very nice people. I have a high degree of animosity toward the performers on MSNBC, but as individuals, not just because they are on MSNBC.

    I don’t feel any animosity, hatred, or negative feelings toward homosexuals because of their sexuality. I do feel negative feelings toward those who attack innocent people who just want to go about their business without having to celebrate or participate in homosexual marriages.

    I have a lot of animosity right now toward the five (or six) Supreme Court justices who don’t seem to understand what the Constitution is for.

    • #127
  8. user_656019 Coolidge
    user_656019
    @RayKujawa

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Indaba: I think most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine for them to view and they have not turnd into rapists or sex maniacs.

    Wait, what? Did someone do a poll? I agree that porn has been mainstreamed (even as long ago as the TV show “Friends” on which porn was a regular topic) . . . but what would make you think that “most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine”?

    Or ‘most Ricochet men have not turned into rapists or sex maniacs’? Come on, Indaba. You can do better than that. Or maybe I should hold my tongue wait for the poll results to come out.

    • #128
  9. Ball Diamond Ball Member
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:While I’m sure she is just as nice a person as I am, I see her repeated pronouncements as much a Wax Moth problem as she sees my stubborn refusal to upend my views as bigotry.

    For some reason, you make me laugh, BDB. I think we could have a fun time together. Probably that is because you speak your truth, and I can speak mine. I always find that amusing. So few people can do that. :)

    I’ve just looked up Wax Moth as I hate to admit I had never heard of them. Terrible problem for bee hives owners. Also, no doubt, for the bees themselves. I get your point!

    No you don’t:

    The Mother Hive by Rudyard Kipling

    • #129
  10. user_541971 Member
    user_541971
    @DavidDeeble

    Well-written and a joy to read. Well done and thanks, Gil.

    • #130
  11. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:While I’m sure she is just as nice a person as I am, I see her repeated pronouncements as much a Wax Moth problem as she sees my stubborn refusal to upend my views as bigotry.

    For some reason, you make me laugh, BDB. I think we could have a fun time together. Probably that is because you speak your truth, and I can speak mine. I always find that amusing. So few people can do that. :)

    I’ve just looked up Wax Moth as I hate to admit I had never heard of them. Terrible problem for bee hives owners. Also, no doubt, for the bees themselves. I get your point!

    No you don’t:

    The Mother Hive by Rudyard Kipling

    You think Red is a Communist or Anarchist saboteur?

    • #131
  12. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    James Of England:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:While I’m sure she is just as nice a person as I am, I see her repeated pronouncements as much a Wax Moth problem as she sees my stubborn refusal to upend my views as bigotry.

    For some reason, you make me laugh, BDB. I think we could have a fun time together. Probably that is because you speak your truth, and I can speak mine. I always find that amusing. So few people can do that. :)

    I’ve just looked up Wax Moth as I hate to admit I had never heard of them. Terrible problem for bee hives owners. Also, no doubt, for the bees themselves. I get your point!

    No you don’t:

    The Mother Hive by Rudyard Kipling

    You think Red is a Communist or Anarchist saboteur?

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    • #132
  13. Ball Diamond Ball Member
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    Umbra Fractus:

    James Of England:

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    Red Feline:

    Ball Diamond Ball:While I’m sure she is just as nice a person as I am, I see her repeated pronouncements as much a Wax Moth problem as she sees my stubborn refusal to upend my views as bigotry.

    For some reason, you make me laugh, BDB. I think we could have a fun time together. Probably that is because you speak your truth, and I can speak mine. I always find that amusing. So few people can do that. :)

    I’ve just looked up Wax Moth as I hate to admit I had never heard of them. Terrible problem for bee hives owners. Also, no doubt, for the bees themselves. I get your point!

    No you don’t:

    The Mother Hive by Rudyard Kipling

    You think Red is a Communist or Anarchist saboteur?

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    Working on a post about it.  Struggling for “obviously in reference to a person” without “personal”.  Much of what she writes is excellent examples of a particular type of writing, so I’m using some quotes of hers, and the conversation it’s embedded in, to make a point.

    However, I certainly do not want to be simply unpleasant toward a particular person, especially one known to be so darned nice.  Working…

    • #133
  14. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Umbra Fractus:

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    Umbra Fractus:

    James Of England:

    You think Red is a Communist or Anarchist saboteur?

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    Then you can’t have read much of what she writes. Here’s an archive of her postings. You’ll see discussions of the importance of maintaining First Amendment rights in the face of Islamic attacks and general concerns about the GWoT, both from a staunchly conservative perspective, concerns about Obama being insufficiently concerned about Iran, a general complaint about Obama noting specifically his lack of positive engagement with Canada (I don’t know if the TPP impacts her views there), film reviews, questions about tourism in Philadelphia, anger about Obama’s address to Iran, a positive piece about American Sniper, outrage over the reconciliation with Cuba, excitement about Scott Walker’s labor reforms and Voter ID, support for the Second Amendment and gun ownership, and some gay issues.

    On the gay issues, I’m not going to defend her. Also, her review of Selma suggested an excessive degree of trust in the filmmakers. Other than that, though, it’s not just in the mainstream for the right, its in the mainstream for Breitbart.

    • #134
  15. Indaba Member
    Indaba
    @

    Misthiocracy:

    Indaba: I dont see much changd.

    Have you looked at Ontario’s sex-ed curriculum lately?

    Yes. My two sons went through it. As a parent, I made sure I was ahead of teaching my sons. It also makes sense when you see what they can look up on the Internet. Sex has changed. My son loves to remind me that I had on the TV at dinner time and Clinton’s sex act was discussed. My son asked for an explaiation. When the President of the US is role modelling marriage and sexual practices that are then discussed on the CBC during family hours, fix that first…

    • #135
  16. Indaba Member
    Indaba
    @

    Ray Kujawa:

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Indaba: I think most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine for them to view and they have not turnd into rapists or sex maniacs.

    Wait, what? Did someone do a poll? I agree that porn has been mainstreamed (even as long ago as the TV show “Friends” on which porn was a regular topic) . . . but what would make you think that “most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine

    Drew in Wisconsin – a few years ago in Ricochet, there was a post on pornography. It was one of those lengthy weekend rambling ones. I had my eyes opened to the male brain and many of the men said it was fine and changed my views on it. Put up a post or do a poll. They said it saved their marriages. Top use of the internet is porn. This post upset many of the women who talked through pm but not on the post. Why did the women not post their real views but discuss it off stage?

    I use the image of porn as immoral to many women who are in a relationship, but for men, it is far less immoral because they view it and know how it impacts on their marriage. Some would be fine with saying publically they do and some are ashamed. But they use it.

    So, I am trying to make the point that what has gone from being immoral and shameful twenty years ago, is now quite acceptable to many.

    • #136
  17. Howellis Inactive
    Howellis
    @ManWiththeAxe

    Indaba:

    Misthiocracy:

    Indaba: I dont see much changd.

    Have you looked at Ontario’s sex-ed curriculum lately?

    Yes. My two sons went through it. As a parent, I made sure I was ahead of teaching my sons. It also makes sense when you see what they can look up on the Internet. Sex has changed. My son loves to remind me that I had on the TV at dinner time and Clinton’s sex act was discussed. My son asked for an explaiation. When the President of the US is role modelling marriage and sexual practices that are then discussed on the CBC during family hours, fix that first…

    Because of such broadcasts I found myself explaining oral sex to my 90 year-old mother-in-law. Thanks, Bubba.

    • #137
  18. user_656019 Coolidge
    user_656019
    @RayKujawa

    Indaba:

    Ray Kujawa:

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Indaba: I think most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine for them to view and they have not turnd into rapists or sex maniacs.

    Wait, what? Did someone do a poll? I agree that porn has been mainstreamed (even as long ago as the TV show “Friends” on which porn was a regular topic) . . . but what would make you think that “most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine

    Drew in Wisconsin – a few years ago in Ricochet, there was a post on pornography. It was one of those lengthy weekend rambling ones. I had my eyes opened to the male brain and many of the men said it was fine and changed my views on it. Put up a post or do a poll. They said it saved their marriages. Top use of the internet is porn. This post upset many of the women who talked through pm but not on the post. Why did the women not post their real views but discuss it off stage?

    I use the image of porn as immoral to many women who are in a relationship, but for men, it is far less immoral because they view it and know how it impacts on their marriage. Some would be fine with saying publically they do and some are ashamed. But they use it.

    So, I am trying to make the point that what has gone from being immoral and shameful twenty years ago, is now quite acceptable to many.

    That’s right, and thanks for defending Ricochet men and agreeing that most of them will not turn into rapists and sex maniacs. I appreciate the thought.

    (is this where I post the smiley face?)

    • #138
  19. Indaba Member
    Indaba
    @

    Ray Kujawa:

    Indaba:

    Ray Kujawa:

    DrewInWisconsin:

    Indaba: I think most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine for them to view and they have not turnd into rapists or sex maniacs.

    Wait, what? Did someone do a poll? I agree that porn has been mainstreamed (even as long ago as the TV show “Friends” on which porn was a regular topic) . . . but what would make you think that “most men on Ricochet think pornography is fine

    Drew in Wisconsin – a few years ago in Ricochet, there was a post on pornography. It was one of those lengthy weekend rambling ones. I had my eyes opened to the male brain.Some would be fine with saying publically they do and some are ashamed. But they use it.

    So, I am trying to make the point that what has gone from being immoral and shameful twenty years ago, is now quite acceptable to many.

    That’s right, and thanks for defending Ricochet men and agreeing that most of them will not turn into rapists and sex maniacs. I appreciate the thought.

    (is this where I post the smiley face?)

    Thank you, Ray! My sons are quite happy to watch Game of Thrones nude scenes with me but I have to leave the room still. My ideas on morality of nudity in movies is very different to theirs. It does seem to have dulled the younger generation’s sexuality though – sort of what fast food has done to fine dining. :>)

    • #139
  20. Indaba Member
    Indaba
    @

    Man With the Axe:

    Indaba:

    Misthiocracy:

    Indaba: I dont see much changd.

    Have you looked at Ontario’s sex-ed curriculum lately?

    Yes. My two sons went through it. As a parent, I made sure I was ahead of teaching my sons. It also makes sense when you see what they can look up on the Internet. Sex has changed. My son loves to remind me that I had on the TV at dinner time and Clinton’s sex act was discussed. My son asked for an explaiation. When the President of the US is role modelling marriage and sexual practices that are then discussed on the CBC during family hours, fix that first…

    Because of such broadcasts I found myself explaining oral sex to my 90 year-old mother-in-law. Thanks, Bubba.

    I mean….really! I was in a business meeting just last week where his sex acts with Monica were discussed and how anyone doing that in a normal office would be fired and that he should have stepped down. How did the feminists like Glorai Steinam accept that role model for the work place? There is the example of a man making sure he is in control of a young girl’s body and other parts. Did he see Monica as a person or an object. Anywa…getting off topic.

    • #140
  21. Indaba Member
    Indaba
    @

    James Of England:

    Umbra Fractus:

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    Umbra Fractus:

    James Of England:

    You think Red is a Communist or Anarchist saboteur?

    I don’t want to speak for BDB, but I’ve yet to see her say anything that couldn’t come out of a [Victim] Studies class.

    Then you can’t have read much of what she writes. Here’s an archive of her postings. Selma suggested an excessive degree of trust in the filmmakers.

    Thank you, James, and you have got Red exactly – it would be laughable to think of her as a Communist or even close to Leftie as she has run her own business and paid payroll which makes one really understand Government interference. She has also lived around the world but not in the USA. She is fascinated by the American constitution and it is Ricochet that has educated her and myself.

    Umbra and BDB, she loves to discuss and you do make an impact. You are in fact teaching and isn’t that what Ricochet is about? You assume that most people think like you or are communists but there are huge variations and give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax. She may not speak with your eloquence but she is truly interested in your opinions.

    • #141
  22. Howellis Inactive
    Howellis
    @ManWiththeAxe

    Indaba: give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax.

    That’s my girl.

    • #142
  23. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    Indaba: Umbra and BDB, she loves to discuss and you do make an impact. You are in fact teaching and isn’t that what Ricochet is about? You assume that most people think like you or are communists but there are huge variations and give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax. She may not speak with your eloquence but she is truly interested in your opinions.

    I didn’t say she was a communist, but whatever she is I’ve seen little evidence that it’s “conservative.”

    • #143
  24. James Of England Inactive
    James Of England
    @JamesOfEngland

    Umbra Fractus:

    Indaba: Umbra and BDB, she loves to discuss and you do make an impact. You are in fact teaching and isn’t that what Ricochet is about? You assume that most people think like you or are communists but there are huge variations and give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax. She may not speak with your eloquence but she is truly interested in your opinions.

    I didn’t say she was a communist, but whatever she is I’ve seen little evidence that it’s “conservative.”

    Have you read her posts on guns, Islam, Harper, unions, American Sniper, Walker, and such?

    Aside from the exclusions I noted (Selma and gay issues), what has she written that leads you to say this?

    • #144
  25. Ball Diamond Ball Member
    Ball Diamond Ball
    @BallDiamondBall

    James Of England:

    Umbra Fractus:

    Indaba: Umbra and BDB, she loves to discuss and you do make an impact. You are in fact teaching and isn’t that what Ricochet is about? You assume that most people think like you or are communists but there are huge variations and give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax. She may not speak with your eloquence but she is truly interested in your opinions.

    I didn’t say she was a communist, but whatever she is I’ve seen little evidence that it’s “conservative.”

    Have you read her posts on guns, Islam, Harper, unions, American Sniper, Walker, and such?

    Aside from the exclusions I noted (Selma and gay issues), what has she written that leads you to say this?

    So at this point, not publishing my unpleasant write-up is failing to answer a well-asked question.  I cannot make it *not* be about somebody, and I wish to call out an unpleasant line of attack.

    Speeding ticket for sure.

    • #145
  26. user_554634 Member
    user_554634
    @MikeRapkoch

    Ball Diamond Ball:

    James Of England:

    Umbra Fractus:

    Indaba: Umbra and BDB, she loves to discuss and you do make an impact. You are in fact teaching and isn’t that what Ricochet is about? You assume that most people think like you or are communists but there are huge variations and give Red a good thrashing – she will come back with a battle ax. She may not speak with your eloquence but she is truly interested in your opinions.

    I didn’t say she was a communist, but whatever she is I’ve seen little evidence that it’s “conservative.”

    Have you read her posts on guns, Islam, Harper, unions, American Sniper, Walker, and such?

    Aside from the exclusions I noted (Selma and gay issues), what has she written that leads you to say this?

    So at this point, not publishing my unpleasant write-up is failing to answer a well-asked question. I cannot make it *not* be about somebody, and I wish to call out an unpleasant line of attack.

    Speeding ticket for sure.

    Well. You can often talk a traffic cop out of giving you a ticket if you use some discretion(-:

    • #146
  27. user_2505 Contributor
    user_2505
    @GaryMcVey

    Mike R, you wield the scepter of authority with a light touch, and you’ve got a fine droll sense of humor.

    I mean, for a SoCon and all…

    • #147
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