What is the Problem with Heroin?

 

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERAIn his post “Bringing Conservatives and Libertarians Together” about marijuana legalization, Fred Cole wrote:

I think it’s the situation with marijuana that it’s already so widely accepted and widely available, that most people who want to smoke already do. Whatever society costs it imposes are already there.

So marijuana prohibition means we get all of the downsides of legalization and all of the downsides of prohibition, but none of the upsides that come with legalization.  It’s the worst of both worlds.

It’s a pretty similar situation with LSD, cocaine and heroin.  However in the case of those three drugs, there are also issues of supply and cost.

On the other hand, here is a caption from a recent article “Eastside Facing Heroin Epidemic” in a local newspaper:

The Eastside branch of Therapeutic Health Services opened its methadone clinic in Bellevue two years ago, serving 90 clients at that time. THS now dispenses methadone to 415 clients from its Bellevue clinic daily, and is contracted with King County for 440.

There seems to be some confusion here. Fred suggests that there may be upsides to legalization of heroin, while the other source considers increasing usage of heroin a problem. One source argues for increased access to heroin, while the other expresses concern about heroin use.

So, what is the problem with heroin? Is it a health issue (addiction)? Is it an access issue (supply and cost)? Will legalizing heroin help resolve or mitigate the problem?

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  1. user_234000 Member
    user_234000
    @

    Ok, it’s late, and I just remembered: some liberal airheads passed a law requiring banks to give loans to poor people, and that greatly contributed to the foreclosure crises: I know. :) But even so, I am not totally opposed to government, or to government regulation.

    • #91
  2. user_234000 Member
    user_234000
    @

    I am sorry, MFR, I wrote my last comment before seeing your last comment :) Of course, requiring banks to give loans to those who cannot repay them is insanity, but that does not convince me to become a libertarian.

    • #92
  3. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Judithann Campbell:Of course, requiring banks to give loans to those who cannot repay them is insanity, but that does not convince me to become a libertarian.

    I wouldn’t expect it to :-)

    • #93
  4. user_234000 Member
    user_234000
    @

    Just to clarify, I don’t want the government to do my nagging for me, but if a majority of citizens decide that the government should do some nagging on some issue, I am ok with that. The majority isn’t always right, and mistakes will be made, but I believe in a democratically elected government doing what the electorate wants them to do, even when the electorate is wrong.

    • #94
  5. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    MarciN:I realize I sound like a broken record, but I think the opiates are more dangerous than other drugs. I don’t think possession of a small amount should land someone in prison, but I think there should be a serious penalty for selling these particular drugs.

    I can see the libertarian point of view, that the governments’ controlling the distribution is one thing that is jacking up the price, which is causing some of the other problems. That said, if heroin were to become legal, the demand would increase, and the price would go up anyway. And if there were any government within two feet of the purchase of heroin, there would be sin taxes to be paid. The price is not going to come down just because it is suddenly legal. And the heroin sold legally is not necessarily going to be more pure and less harmful than the stuff sold now illegally.

    Marci, I actually agree with you that opiates are the most dangerous drugs around. I just disagree wrt the efficacy of banning them and with the impact of Prohibition.

    From wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt:

    While Prohibition was successful in reducing the amount of liquor consumed, it stimulated the proliferation of rampant underground, organized and widespread criminal activity.[11] Many were astonished and disenchanted with the rise of spectacular gangland crimes (such as Chicago’s Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre), when prohibition was supposed to reduce crime. Prohibition lost its advocates one by one, while the wet opposition talked of personal liberty, new tax revenues from legal beer and liquor, and the scourge of organized crime

    And also

    In 1930 the Prohibition Commissioner estimated that in 1919, the year before the Volstead Act became law, the average drinking American spent $17 per year on alcoholic beverages. By 1930, because enforcement diminished the supply, spending had increased to $35 per year (there was no inflation in this period). The result was an illegal alcohol beverage industry that made an average of $3 billion per year in illegal untaxed income.[96]

    And also

    Illegal sales are not officially reported or measured, but there are indirect estimates using alcohol related deaths and cirrhosis, a disease linked specifically to ongoing alcohol consumption.[84] Scholars estimate that consumption dropped to a low of about 60% of pre-prohibition levels around 1925, rising to almost 80% before the law was officially repealed.

    All of which sounds eerily familiar.  As does the argument:

    When Prohibition was repealed in 1933, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market profits from alcohol in most states, because of competition with legal liquor stores selling alcohol at lower prices. (States still retained the right to enforce their own state laws concerning alcohol consumption.)

    • #95
  6. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Zafar: All of which sounds eerily familiar.  As does the argument: When Prohibition was repealed in 1933, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market profits from alcohol in most states, because of competition with legal liquor stores selling alcohol at lower prices. (States still retained the right to enforce their own state laws concerning alcohol consumption.)

    Yup. I confess that you and Fred and Midge have made me think about this.

    I don’t know how to keep the opiates out of American life. I can see the point the three of you are making.

    I wouldn’t care if I thought I could count on the schools to educate people, but they don’t seem able to get the simplest of messages across to everyone.

    Alcoholism is serious. And prohibition failed. No question about that.

    I really hate to see opium and heroin addiction. I think it is worse than alcoholism, at least from what I have seen of alcoholism, but I imagine that doctors would argue that there isn’t much difference.

    I guess as a society, if we want to protect people, we need to work harder on education.

    • #96
  7. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Judithann Campbell:

    Petty Boozswha:I watched a few minutes of the same TV show earlier today – Anthony Bourdain on CNN dealing with heroin in Western Mass. Why is heroin illegal? From a purely pharmacological perspective clean heroin from clean needles is much less deleterious to your body than marijuana, alcohol or tobacco. If consenting adults feel it relieves some physical or psychological discomfort why can’t they make their own decision?

    The thing about heroin that is so scary is that apparently, it’s pretty much immediately addictive; lots of people smoke pot-most of those who smoke pot, it could be argued- do not become addicted. I used to work in a bar where there was a great deal of cocaine use, and there are those who can dabble in cocaine without it becoming a problem, but with heroin, there just seems to be no margin for error. Pretty much everyone who tries it loves it and becomes addicted quickly: that is very scary.

    The usual statistic is that about one in four who try heroin become addicted; that leaves the interesting question of why 3/4 of experimenters don’t become addicted.

    A Swedish psychiatrist named Nils Bejerot was at ground zero of the Swedish amphetamine epidemic, and did important research in the UK during their heroin legalization experiment.

    In what looks like a good precis of his work, his analysis of addiction goes like this:

    • iatrogenic addiction, either “intentional, where narcotics are prescribed for pain control with the expectation that addiction will occur,” or”inadvertent” addiction, where patients escalate or prolong their usage beyond what the physicians intend, thereby becoming addicted
    • auto-established” addicts; isolated experimenters who become addicted. Addicted physicians (William Halstead would be a good historical example here) usually fall into this category
    • epidemic addiction, where where the drug habit is spread from old drug abusers to novices in intimate relations; the spread can be traced through long contact chains, similar to those of venereal diseases; this group often displays norm-breaking (antisocial or criminal) behaviour
    •  endemic/pandemic, where the drug habits have been part of the social culture for generations (though not necessarily legally accepted.) Examples are alcoholism in the Western world, opium smoking among the Chinese, and hashish smoking in the Arabian culture; or which is spread all over the world, such as tobacco smoking.

    Bejerot examined the Swedish and British experiments at managing addiction by physicians prescribing narcotics, but judged them to be failures since the “legal” addicts who got their drugs by prescription from the official drug control project) not only tended to initiate others into drug use (which he had verified by epidemiological contact tracing methodology) but did not decrease their crime rates. Many of these “legal” addicts were arrested by the police for various crimes such as drunk driving, theft, check forgeries etc. This led him to oppose measures based on the thinking of people like Alfred Lindesmith, who thought that the control measures were worse than the addictions, at any rate for opiates.)

    Bejerot also observed that the countries with the shortest experience of cannabis (i.e. in the West) were the most tolerant ones, whereas cultures with a long experience (e.g. the Arab world) were much more restrictive. Egypt, having had centuries of experience with cannabis, in 1924 proposed that cannabis be put under inter- national drug control, and this control was achieved in 1925.

    The few even temporarily successful efforts at interdicting developing epidemics involved draconian measures such as multi-year intensive compulsory treatment, usually in confinement as well as effective border control to prevent or minimize smuggling.

    Efforts at control of endemic/pandemic drug use are interesting: We seem to be gaining ground with respect to tobacco in the US, but cannabis has become endemic. In both trends, mass media have played a role in society’s becoming tolerant or intolerant to the drug use in question.

    China’s measures to control opiate addiction (in the original expansion of which from iatrogenic and low level epidemic use to a raging epidemic the British role was truly odious; one could say that the East India Company was the spiritual ancestor of the cocaine cartels.)

    Bejerot’s analysis did not include this mechanism of spread of drug use; he was a psychiatrist and not an economist. It has by now become obvious that economic factors are key.

    In addition to the object lesson of the cartels, we are seeing tobacco companies seeking to expand their markets to countries where the stigmatization of tobacco use has not taken place to the extent that it has in the USA, (and leveraging their tremendous knowledge of tobacco biology to turn tobacco farms into tobacco pharma) at the same time as cannabis is becoming a large legal business category.

    • #97
  8. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    MarciN: I don’t know how to keep the opiates out of American life. I can see the point the three of you are making.

    Well, a couple of things

    1. Do we need to keep them out?  Yes there’s potential for addiction, but they can also be used as a medicine to help people.  That’s the who point.  When you put barriers into place because some people can’t handle their high, it means people with legitimate medical needs suffer.

    2. In a way, alcoholism is much worse.  Heroin addicts have trouble functioning.  I work with alcoholics.  You can be an alcoholic, still suffer the health effects and social damage, and still hold down a job.  So it’s less harsh, but far more widespread.  When I read what you said, tthat you don’t know how to keep opiates out of American life, I thought the same thing about alcohol.

    • #98
  9. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    While recovering from surgery in the hospital earlier this year, I was put on IV dilaudid (basically morphine).  For whatever it’s worth, I just hated the stuff.  It scrambled my brains.  I couldn’t distinguish between memories of dreams and memories of reality.  I was talking to my wife about things that had never happened.  Assuming that heroine causes similar effects (and I’m told it does), I think it is just bizarre that anyone actually wants to feel that way.

    • #99
  10. user_129539 Inactive
    user_129539
    @BrianClendinen

    Gee maybe we don’t want hardcore drugs because it will increase domestic abuse, child abuse, DUI’s, and overall crime. The question is when you increase the supply and make the product cheaper how many more instance do you get of drug induced criminality or drug money motivated crimes. Let alone talk about an increase in usage would also destroy more relationships.

    We whine and complain about losing the culture war but what libertarians forget, is that culture is a huge mechanize were we regulated behavior on the margins, and which stops people from getting into harmful behaviors. Legalization undermines culture in extreme ways.

    It is one thing to argue for legalization where a substance even in some rare instances has befits. It is a another when you start to argue for the legality of behavior and substances that has no befits (or in which any of the rare befits have better  cheaper substitutes)  and only cost.

    The burden of proof should on the one who wants to regulate. Therefor a large body of evidence and experience should have to be provided for  to show the extreme negative social cost. However with hard drugs the evidence is overwhelm in the negative on the usage front.

    • #100
  11. Owen Findy Inactive
    Owen Findy
    @OwenFindy

    Asquared: Unfortunately the order is vital. That simple fact seems to escape most libertarians.

    Hear, hear!

    • #101
  12. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Brian Clendinen: Gee maybe we don’t want hardcore drugs because it will increase domestic abuse, child abuse, DUI’s, and overall crime. The question is when you increase the supply and make the product cheaper how many more instance do you get of drug induced criminality or drug money motivated crimes. Let alone talk about an increase in usage would also destroy more relationships.

    You’re applying this to alcohol too, right?

    • #102
  13. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Asquared:How many people do you know that live on welfare?

    Exactly ALL of the people  I know that are, or were, on welfare are, or were, on heroin.  Many of them are deeply trapped in the cycle of addiction:  use, hit the bottom, go to treatment, do all right for a while, fall of the wagon.  Most of them struggle with alcohol addiction as well.

    These people didn’t start using heroine because they got hurt and needed pain meds.  they did so because they grew up in a culture of substance abuse.  They saw their parents smoking pot, drinking to excess, shooting up.  They saw their friends doing it.  Their friends parents.  They didn’t know a different life existed until it was too late.  They found themselves in a trap from which there is almost no way out, surrounded by people trying to get out of the the same trap.  the dirty awful part of the trap is not the black market.  It’s the addiction.  The government solution kept them in the trap.  Not one of the people I’m talking about here (and I’m not talking about one or two), got clean as the result of a methadone clinic.

    Does this mean we shouldn’t legalize the hard stuff?  I really don’t know the answer.  On paper it seems to be the right thing to do, to let people die in the gutter of their own accord.  “It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart.”

    Color me dubious that legalization makes the problem any better.

    • #103
  14. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Larry3435:While recovering from surgery in the hospital earlier this year, I was put on IV dilaudid (basically morphine). For whatever it’s worth, I just hated the stuff. It scrambled my brains. I couldn’t distinguish between memories of dreams and memories of reality. I was talking to my wife about things that had never happened. Assuming that heroine causes similar effects (and I’m told it does), I think it is just bizarre that anyone actually wants to feel that way.

    I, too, think it bizarre that an otherwise healthy person would want to feel that way.

    But since pain can addle the brain, too, as well as limit range of motion, I can understand people deciding to trade a pain-addled brain and body for a mildly drug-addled one, on the grounds that the pain relief caused by a drug actually leaves them less addled overall.

    • #104
  15. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Spin: Exactly ALL of the people  I know that are, or were, on welfare are, or were, on heroin.

    Interesting.  I can’t say all, but most of the people I know that are or were on welfare are alcoholics to one degree or another.

    • #105
  16. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: I, too, think it bizarre that an otherwise healthy person would want to feel that way.

    Seconded.  I don’t even drink very often for that same reason.

    That being said, Midge, there are a lot of people for whom that is an escape.  Shiz in their life got too real.  They need a way to feel differently.

    • #106
  17. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Spin:These people didn’t start using heroine because they got hurt and needed pain meds. they did so because they grew up in a culture of substance abuse. They saw their parents smoking pot, drinking to excess, shooting up. They saw their friends doing it. Their friends parents. They didn’t know a different life existed until it was too late. They found themselves in a trap from which there is almost no way out, surrounded by people trying to get out of the the same trap. the dirty awful part of the trap is not the black market. It’s the addiction.

    Or they grew up in a culture of insobriety, and it’s not addiction to any particular drug that trapped them, but rather the low value placed on sobriety and keeping a clear head.

    A lot of people take drugs because they’re seeking insobriety and irresponsibility. But then, a lot of people also take drugs in a search for sobriety and responsibility. I think many ordinary people rely on coffee, for instance, to effectively make them more sober, responsible people every morning. And some people who perceive themselves as suffering from something that leaves them considerably more addled than the average human seek out something stronger than coffee to help. So, for example, depressed people may seek out antidepressants, ADD people may seek out drugs to help make them more attentive, and people who find pain impairing their judgment may seek out pain-relievers that would probably impair a person with no pain.

    I think it’s important to have a culture that values keeping your wits about you.

    Is it possible that the biggest problem addicts share is not valuing their wits, whether because of their individual preferences or because their subculture never taught them to do so?

    • #107
  18. jetstream Inactive
    jetstream
    @jetstream

    Fred Cole:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: I, too, think it bizarre that an otherwise healthy person would want to feel that way.

    Seconded. I don’t even drink very often for that same reason.

    That being said, Midge, there are a lot of people for whom that is an escape. Shiz in their life got too real. They need a way to feel differently.

    I question whether alcoholism is an escape. An alcoholic friend once told me that when he drank his first couple of beers was also the first time he had ever felt normal.

    • #108
  19. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    jetstream:

    Fred Cole:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: I, too, think it bizarre that an otherwise healthy person would want to feel that way.

    Seconded. I don’t even drink very often for that same reason.

    That being said, Midge, there are a lot of people for whom that is an escape. Shiz in their life got too real. They need a way to feel differently.

    I question whether alcoholism is an escape. An alcoholic friend once told me that when he drank his first couple of beers was also the first time he had ever felt normal.

    You can definitely use drugs to escape your abnormality. I think that’s what a lot of people who take antidepressants are seeking to do, for example.

    • #109
  20. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    jetstream:

    Fred Cole:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: I, too, think it bizarre that an otherwise healthy person would want to feel that way.

    Seconded. I don’t even drink very often for that same reason.

    That being said, Midge, there are a lot of people for whom that is an escape. Shiz in their life got too real. They need a way to feel differently.

    I question whether alcoholism is an escape. An alcoholic friend once told me that when he drank his first couple of beers was also the first time he had ever felt normal.

    Yeah.  That’s an escape.  An escape from the way he feels sober.  That’s actually pretty common among alcoholics.

    • #110
  21. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    I don’t prefer terms like “escape” as they seem to be an application of the naturalistic fallacy. It implies weakness and moral inferiority when for many it could just as easily be objectively better.

    I wouldn’t characterise taking ibuprofen for pain as an escape, but rather an improvement. YMMV

    • #111
  22. user_129539 Inactive
    user_129539
    @BrianClendinen

    Fred Cole:

    Brian Clendinen: Gee maybe we don’t want hardcore drugs because it will increase domestic abuse, child abuse, DUI’s, and overall crime. The question is when you increase the supply and make the product cheaper how many more instance do you get of drug induced criminality or drug money motivated crimes. Let alone talk about an increase in usage would also destroy more relationships.

    You’re applying this to alcohol too, right?

    The major difference is you can causally drink and enjoy it and not get to the point were it effects judgement. Hard core drugs, not so. When something is abuse even when you have a little bit of it, you are talking a whole different order of magnitude. Also having a small amount of these drugs for short periods of time get you physically addicted (caffeine is the same story but their are no harmful effects and only befits except). That is when causally usage is hard or almost none existence you have a problem.

    • #112
  23. user_280840 Inactive
    user_280840
    @FredCole

    Mike H:I don’t prefer terms like “escape” as they seem to be an application of the naturalistic fallacy. It implies weakness and moral inferiority when for many it could just as easily be objectively better.

    I wouldn’t characterise taking ibuprofen for pain as an escape, but rather an improvement. YMMV

    That’s true to a point, but there is a real escapism phenomenon, even if you’d prefer not to term in that way.

    • #113
  24. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Mike H:I don’t prefer terms like “escape” as they seem to be an application of the naturalistic fallacy. It implies weakness and moral inferiority when for many it could just as easily be objectively better.

    I wouldn’t characterise taking ibuprofen for pain as an escape, but rather an improvement. YMMV

    I would call taking ibuprofen for pain both an escape and (usually, but not always) an improvement. You use ibuprofen to override (or escape) adaptive mechanisms of the body – pain-reception and inflammatory response. Now, there are benefits as well as costs to overriding these mechanisms, and sometimes one outweighs the other.

    • #114
  25. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Mike H:I don’t prefer terms like “escape” as they seem to be an application of the naturalistic fallacy. It implies weakness and moral inferiority when for many it could just as easily be objectively better.

    I wouldn’t characterise taking ibuprofen for pain as an escape, but rather an improvement. YMMV

    I would call taking ibuprofen for pain both an escape and (usually, but not always) an improvement. You use ibuprofen to override (or escape) adaptive mechanisms of the body – pain-reception and inflammatory response. Now, there are benefits as well as costs to overriding these mechanisms, and sometimes one outweighs the other.

    I understand it’s a useful word on occasion, It just reads to me like, “Why can’t you suffer or simply enjoy life less like you were meant to, you weakling.”

    • #115
  26. PsychLynne Inactive
    PsychLynne
    @PsychLynne

    MarciN:I have also seen the negative consequences of our overzealous control of drugs.

    And there have been many. Doctors under-treat pain because of addiction issues. My concern is that the power of controlling the prescription market has gone to doctors’ heads, and they are withholding drugs unnecessarily……

    And I have taken these painkillers after surgery. I know them well, and I didn’t develop an addiction problem. So not everyone is going to succumb

    Trust me, it’s not the doctor’s perception of power in controlling the Rx market, that’s the DEA.  MDs have been arrested and jailed, as have patients over this.

    PAtient’s have a huge and significant role in this…such as not wanting to experience any pain, no complying with physical and occupational therapy and other lifestyle interventions to minimize their pain.  Thinking they should be pain free–the list goes on and on. …

    • #116
  27. Ross C Inactive
    Ross C
    @RossC

    I think a missed point here is that a successful society should be concerned with the encouragement of industry (in the sense of dilligence, activity, and attentiveness) and the discouragement of idleness.  A modern view is “who cares if it harms only the person doing it”.  And by that view almost anything goes, but it is hard for me to believe that any drugs (or alcohol for that matter) do not hurt the industry of the individual involved and so are harmful to the society around them.

    • #117
  28. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I wish I could wake up Ronald Reagan. “It’s morning in America.”

    There is so much work to be done. Going through life sedated is not good.

    • #118
  29. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake: Or they grew up in a culture of insobriety, and it’s not addiction to any particular drug that trapped them, but rather the low value placed on sobriety and keeping a clear head

    Substance abuse, insobriety, it’s sort of the same thing.  But what you are saying is what I was trying to say.  “Life sucks, so I want a way to ease the pain, since there is no hope of rising above this.”

    • #119
  30. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Mike H:

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake:

    Mike H:I don’t prefer terms like “escape” as they seem to be an application of the naturalistic fallacy. It implies weakness and moral inferiority when for many it could just as easily be objectively better.

    I wouldn’t characterise taking ibuprofen for pain as an escape, but rather an improvement. YMMV

    I would call taking ibuprofen for pain both an escape and (usually, but not always) an improvement. You use ibuprofen to override (or escape) adaptive mechanisms of the body – pain-reception and inflammatory response. Now, there are benefits as well as costs to overriding these mechanisms, and sometimes one outweighs the other.

    I understand it’s a useful word on occasion, It just reads to me like, “Why can’t you suffer or simply enjoy life less like you were meant to, you weakling.”

    Honestly, I think an optimal amount of having that attitude towards yourself is helpful. An optimal amount. Either too much or too little can be severely dysfunctional.

    • #120
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