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Hot new business plan?
The Small Dead Animals blog is part of my morning routine. Today they linked to this Spectator article about how hard it is to sell electric cars. People are starting out with range anxiety, and proceeding to wondering what to do if the battery needs replacing and they have a multi-$K wheeled brick.
I have an idea.
Start a company to modify electric cars into gas powered cars. They have a perfectly good chassis and drive train, after all. Make use of them.
One approach would be to install a simple one- or two-cylinder gas motor that would run a generator and charge the battery whenever it needed a charge. The motor would only run at full speed, and only on-demand, so MPG would be very good. That would take up some trunk space, but it would be minimally invasive otherwise. The downside is that the battery would have the same lithium self-immolation and lifespan issues.
Another approach would be to replace the lithium death batteries with good ol’ lead acid. With the gas-powered generator, you wouldn’t need as much battery capacity, because you’re charging them as you go. You have a hybrid that can be safely charged, and firefighters know how to deal with lead acid battery fires.
Depending on the power plants that are available, it may be possible to skip the “turn it into a hybrid” step and go straight to a gas car. Picture a motorcycle engine powering a generator to run the electric motor(s). It would run all the time, but at a very good MPG. And there would be no battery at all to burn down your garage.
I really think, that, considering the substantial cost of replacing a bad lithium car battery and the risks involved in having one, there might be a viable business model here; even doing them one at a time. Say, work out some kits to handle the various EVs that people have been foolish enough to buy, and train a bunch of Pep Boys mechanics to do the conversions. Of course, it would void the warranties on the cars, but as long as it’s cheaper than the repair bill, who cares?
Paging Mr. Musk…
Published in Technology
I’m not sure how all the energy usage works out. I used to wonder why they did not do things like the diesel electric locomotives on our trains. Without going into the details, automotive transportation is probably too variable for that option to work well.
On a similar note I recall watching a video where a Tesla owner had his vehicle changed over to a high-performance, gasoline-engined car, but kept most of the rest of the high-tech innovations that he enjoyed.
As far as conversion, I doubt if the juice is worth the squeeze.
I would support requiring only wind or solar power in the manufacture of EVs.
Why not just buy a hybrid in the first place and skip all the hassle?
How are things with the hybrid market? We hear a lot about EVs, but not so much about hybrids. They have lithium ion batteries too, which concerns me.
I had a chance to buy a low-mileage 2015 hybrid in excellent condition recently. I know the owner and he would have given me a great price, but I was concerned, in part, that the age of the batteries might necessitate their replacement in a couple of years.
There were other ways in which the car was not quite what I wanted, but the batteries were a big factor in my mind.
That’s for people smarter than those who bought EVs.
Among other advantages, the battery used in a hybrid is much smaller (and hence lighter), cheaper, and apparently more durable since it’s not being run up and mostly all the way down, repeatedly. And you never have to look for a charging station, just a gas pump.
And the charging of them.
A good blog. And very long-lived: It’s been around for 20 years.
We just bought a hybrid, which should be useful for our driving patterns of several long road trips per year.
If we mostly drove around town or short trips, I might have considered getting a plug-in hybrid. But the vehicles on my candidate list don’t have that option.
No way I’ll ever own an EV except under some draconian legal mandate.
Ten million Greta Thunbergs and Michael Manns on bicycle powered generators, pedaling 24/7.
This article covers the dangers and difficulties of dealing with EV batteries, especially in Hawaii following the Lahaina fire.
Hawaii was targeted as a test bed for “clean energy.” What no one planned for was the disposal of EV batteries. Hawaii has exactly zero EV battery disposal a/o recycling capability.
Thanks for explaining this so quick, so I don’t have to.
I would have started by teaching a condensed first-semester MBA course. And lost everyone before we even got to the important chapter, the one on sunk costs.
Converting a gas car to electric doesn’t really work because the bodies of gas cars are designed to accommodate the shapes and weight distribution of an internal combustion engine, a transmission, gas tank, and exhaust system rather than electric motors and great big batteries. Elon Musk has said that the Tesla Roadster (a converted Lotus) was a really dumb mistake for this very reason. Electric cars need to be designed from the ground up to accommodate the shapes and weight distribution of all the electric bits and pieces.
Reversing the process (going from electric to gas) doesn’t make it a less stupid idea.
Love it. You could call it.
-Teslafeller
-Priusgetty
-The Standard Hybird Company
-BamBam buggy
That’s all I got.
For the 98% of EVs that are not deemed worthy of a late life conversion, they could be used to help create coastal reefs. I’m pretty sure they could also be repurposed as anchors for larger maritime vessels. So sad that the EV fad wasn’t thought through.
This would be quite doable. Since the gasoline engine would not be connected to the drivetrain (unlike a hybrid), it should be an easy retrofit. You would just need to make the electrical connections from the generator to the battery pack. I think the biggest issue would be where and how to install a small gasoline tank such that it doesn’t create too much of its own safety risk. You’d also have to figure out how to vent exhaust from the gasoline motor to well outside the passenger cabin.
For a few years I owned a BMW i3 with range extender that was this configuration. All-electric drivetrain with a 2 cylinder 650 cc gasoline motorcycle engine under the rear load floor that automatically turned on when the battery got down to a certain level. The sole job of the gasoline engine was to charge the battery from which the drivetrain drew its power. My recollection is the gasoline engine had three speeds at which it ran depending on how fast my driving was drawing down power from the battery. The car had a 2 gallon gasoline tank. It was not designed for regular running on the gasoline motor. The gasoline motor was just to calm range anxiety. I figured I could go about 50 miles at highway speeds on the 2 gallons of gas. (The size of the gasoline tank was apparently dictated by some U.S. government regulation about how much gasoline a car could carry and still be called “electric.”)
I really liked the car for the commuting and around town driving I was doing at the time. BMW had designed it as a city car and took full advantage of the fact that the batteries could be distributed across the bottom of the vehicle, and there was no need for a big block of space for a large gasoline engine, emissions equipment, and transmission. So the interior was very spacious, airy, and open in a very small exterior envelope. When I moved to semi-rural Texas, the car no longer made sense for my needs.
I’m not convinced that electric vehicles self-immolate at any substantially greater rate than gasoline vehicles do.
The biggest problem I see with all of these type of proposals, is they still depend on the main battery pack being usable. But the main reason people are thinking about this, is “what to do with my EV IF THE BATTERY PACK FAILS.” And they don’t want to spend what it costs to replace it.
You can’t put a gas engine in an EV to charge the battery pack THAT HAS FAILED!
And if you’re going to replace the battery pack, why screw around with the gas generator?
In addition to what I wrote before…
25 mpg? Pitiful.
The reason electric cars are not selling well is energy density. Gasoline has a much higher energy density than even Li-ion batteries, which is why hybrids beat electrics hands down. You can also fuel a car in 5 minutes, while even fast charging takes far more.
This also explains the need for a giant battery as opposed to a gas tank.
Now, electric drive motors are great. You can use the car’s full torque for braking, and recharge the battery at the same time. You can avoid the need for a drive train.
I’m unclear as to why no one makes a hybrid that is simply a gasoline (or diesel) generator to charge a smallish battery pack, like the OP’s retrofit idea but designed this way from the ground up.
I assume this approach yields less opportunity for graft, gives liberals less of a sense of moral superiority, or both.
You’re unaware that you have pretty much actually described many of the current-day hybrids? Especially the Toyota ones, or at least the Prius that my brothers have. The gasoline engine can also help power the wheels, but I don’t think you gain much if at all by having just electric motors and the engine runs a generator. It seems likely that, if that were an improvement, that’s what Toyota would have done.
I don’t think you can just assume that however Toyota does it is the most energy efficient way. The most economically efficient way based on their specific situation, considering their other production lines and priorities, maybe.
My understanding is based on an article I read in Popular Mechanics about 15 years ago so my memory may be faulty, but the idea is that not having the engine connected to the drivetrain both simplifies the design and lightens the vehicle. The current design must have a way to switch between the gasoline engine providing motive power and the electric motor doing so. Logically, that must be more complex, thus weigh more and increase potential repair costs.
Also, my understanding is that an engine that is optimized to run a fixed RPM can be made significantly more efficient than one designed for variable RPMs that are required for various speeds under gasoline power. Toyota has little incentive to design such an engine from scratch if they can use an existing, proven design in this role even though it is less fuel-efficient.
Perhaps the theoretical efficiencies don’t translate well into the real world. I’m not a gear-head and this isn’t something I’ve delved into much, but I’d bet that Toyota didn’t attempt to design a hybrid like this from the ground up, but rather figured out how to make a hybrid that could be integrated into their existing production chain at the lowest cost. They’re smart like that.
EVs only make economic sense when heavily subsidized. I suspect that government subsidies aren’t sufficient for a hybrid as I describe to be competitive, if they even exist for such a vehicle. But I don’t know. That’s why I asked.
When using a CVT, the gasoline engine CAN remain more/mostly at a constant RPM. That’s one of the points of the CVT. Also, the Prius design – and probably other models using their “Synergy Drive”- appears to double-up in other ways, such as using the electric motor and the battery to start the gasoline engine, which saves weight etc, and the gasoline engine can disengage from the drivetrain on shorter/lower-speed trips that can be done entirely on battery.
Not a bad idea. You would have far fewer. It would only work for city driving. You would need enough down time to recharge. Down time being at red lights, and traffic, etc.
My brother-in-law had a sailboat with a little 5hp diesel engine. I was with him out on Narragansett Bay on a calm day. We putted around what seemed like all afternoon on a gallon of fuel. The motor was beautiful in it’s simplicity. It was a single piston with a glow plug.
Any motor, gas or electric, is at it’s top efficiency at it’s rated torque and RPM. I don’t know electric cars at all but I do know electric motors. They are probably PWM (pulse width modulation) motors. They are expensive but has high torque to size/weight ratio. So re-thinking the used EV market has possibilities. You will never get past the government regulations so that by itself kills any creativity, as usual.
The hybrid battery is nowhere near as large as the all-electric vehicle battery. It’s used to supplement the gas-powered drive train, not replace it . . .
You’re describing the Diesel Electric or Gasoline Electric drive train developed by LeTourneau in the late 1940’s early 1950’s.
Edison Motors is using this idea for severe duty trucking applications in logging and mining, as well as conversion kits for semi-trucks and 1 ton pickups.
https://www.edisonmotors.ca/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCc0V8_1c9A
WOW!
Bingo. I think it was the August 1980 issue..it was August, and it was the cover story. A fellow in Florida had built a car that was essentially a flat bed of ordinary 12v lead acid batteries. There was an electric motor in the hub of each wheel and a gas turbine engine. When the batteries reached a certain level of discharge, the turbine lit off and ran at full throttle (the only efficient setting for a turbine) until they were charged. There was no steering mechanism needed, it simply varied the speed of the motors in order to turn. It was extremely maneuverable and took off like a scalded cat. I would have loved to own one, but never heard any more about it.
Lithium fires are much harder to put out than gasoline fires, so each one that happens is a much more exciting event.
And the fact that Lincoln EV owners were told to park them outdoors sugggests that at least some of them are more likely to burst into flame.
deleted because redundant
That would be pretty hard on the tires.