The University of Our Lady and the Welcoming Church

 

As Catholics, we dedicate June to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. As Catholics we venerate and hold in high regard the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a so-called Catholic University, and perhaps the most well-known one worldwide, one would think the University of Notre Dame would be one to promote this great month. Well, color one shocked:

It is disgraceful that this Catholic University “celebrates” all LGBTQ+ identities. It seems they have bowed to the progressive Left as just about every other institution has.

The Church exists for the salvation of souls – on Christ’s terms.

Does UND even attempt to make disciples of Jesus Christ and to teach them to observe all that He has commanded? The use of the word “welcoming” has been co-opted by the lefties and turned into acceptance of the liberal culture without any of the message of “Repent and believe in the Gospel.”

Perhaps rather than pride, UND could look for humility and honor Our Lady by wishing us a Happy Sacred Heart of Jesus month.

It is almost like they are saying: “Hey, LA Dodgers, hold my beer.”

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

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  1. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    GFHandle (View Comment):

     

    I don’t know who James Martin is,

    You are fortunate.

    • #31
  2. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    I have concluded that we live in a evil, wicked country, and we are a major source of evil in the world.  This is the ideology that we export.  It does seem like the Iranians have a point about us, doesn’t it?

    I agree except I’m unsure what you refer to about the Iranians. You certainly appear to have moved to a religious belief that would foster a Christian era wholly as authoritative as what we see in today’s Islam or our on version of secular humanism we are mired in.

    • #32
  3. GFHandle Member
    GFHandle
    @GFHandle

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    GFHandle (View Comment):
    And on such a question, not even the Pope could claim infallability

    And why not? And why don’t you think is important to never miss the opportunity to separate and distinguish the sin from the sinner? I cannot tell the difference in most pronouncements today.

    Popes are only infallible on matters of faith and morals; they could say that so and so’s doctrine is at odds with Church teaching, but they could not infallibly label a person.

    And I don’t think Twitter is the best forum for homilies, especially when  it might seem as if you want to single out a specific group as needing forgiveness.  The UND administration was probably justing wanting to do a little virtue signalling for the sake of competing for grants and students. They probably think they are being prudent. Doesn’t mean we have to admire them.

    • #33
  4. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    Unsk (View Comment):
    To the Athenians and people like them Wisdom and Reason  was their deity.  But that ideology, which is anti-religious,  should not be conflated to disregard Reason altogether, for from my point of view, Christ taught us to seek the truth, which requires us I would think  to use all the reason we can to ascertain the truth. So  Pope Paul II ‘s “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth” does not  contradict what I think St. Paul was saying in Corinthians, which was the condemnation of the glorification of reason above all else.  

    I mean, Our Lord did say to the lawyer (St. Matthew 37-38, KJV):

    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

    (My emphasis.)

    This implies, at least to me, that we are to use our reason, and Our Lord was in favor of using reason to understand G-d and His way for us. And to me this would include how we govern ourselves until the Lord returns.

    • #34
  5. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    Unsk (View Comment):
    To the Athenians and people like them Wisdom and Reason was their deity. But that ideology, which is anti-religious, should not be conflated to disregard Reason altogether, for from my point of view, Christ taught us to seek the truth, which requires us I would think to use all the reason we can to ascertain the truth. So Pope Paul II ‘s “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth” does not contradict what I think St. Paul was saying in Corinthians, which was the condemnation of the glorification of reason above all else.

    I mean, Our Lord did say to the lawyer (St. Matthew 37-38, KJV):

    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

    (My emphasis.)

    This implies, at least to me, that we are to use our reason, and Our Lord was in favor of using reason to understand G-d and His way for us. And to me this would include how we govern ourselves until the Lord returns.

    “It is the glory of G-d to conceal a thing. To search it out is the glory of kings.”

    • #35
  6. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    It depends entirely upon the flavor of Protestantism. I have not found that to be the case with most of the Protestants I deal with. But perhaps I have had more exposure to fundamentalist Baptists and liberal Episcopalians than you have!

    I don’t know what sort of “fundamentalist Baptist” you may have in mind. But I do know there is such a thing as an anti-intellectual Protestant, as well as a flavor of Calvinism that doubts reason can do anything right because of sin.

    I have a number of friends who are Fundamentalist Baptist. They sound a lot like Jerry in his comment above, to be honest. For them, using logic and reason are suspect, because it’s faith and only faith that matters. In their minds, to use reason is contrary to faith because somehow it diminishes its importance – it’s pagan. Needless to say, we have had to agree to disagree on these matters. I also have a friend who is an Episcopalian, and I’m afraid she typifies what I read about the Episcopalian church these days – they’re on board with all of this gender-affirming garbage, which certainly is anti-reason, anti-reality. I have a few Lutheran friends as well, and how much they would or would not agree with JP2’s statement is dependant upon what synod they’re in (here in my little town, we have Missouri, Wisconsin, and ELCA synods).

    I went to many different Protestant churches as a child, including Baptist ones, and the only times I heard anything like Jerry’s viewpoint were from Jack Chick cartoons, or second-hand accounts of Bob Jones University.  That said, many do believe that there are elements of Christianity that one must simply take on faith, but not that reason and logic are inherently suspect or pagan concepts.

    • #36
  7. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    It depends entirely upon the flavor of Protestantism. I have not found that to be the case with most of the Protestants I deal with. But perhaps I have had more exposure to fundamentalist Baptists and liberal Episcopalians than you have!

    You are now seeing the same downgrading of the Catholic faith by their own leaders that we have already seen for a long period among Protestant sects

    Yes, but the difference is that the Catholic Faith has a foundation that can’t be changed or destroyed, despite the best efforts of the heretics within her. Protestants simply divide and go elsewhere, and I can see some denominations disappearing entirely as they make themselves more and more irrelevant. I’m not so sure that the Anglican church, for example, will survive the apostasy within its ranks. The Catholic Church will, though obviously there’s no guarantee it will survive everywhere (Germany comes to mind…).

    All foundations can be changed or destroyed, or made irrelevant; to say otherwise is a matter of faith. :P

    As for Notre Dame, in exactly what way is it affiliated with the Catholic Church, beyond initial establishment and tradition?  I’ve wondered why they don’t either reign in the faculty/administrators or simply cut ties or funding towards them, and whether its a matter of power or discretion?  

    • #37
  8. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    It depends entirely upon the flavor of Protestantism. I have not found that to be the case with most of the Protestants I deal with. But perhaps I have had more exposure to fundamentalist Baptists and liberal Episcopalians than you have!

    I don’t know what sort of “fundamentalist Baptist” you may have in mind. But I do know there is such a thing as an anti-intellectual Protestant, as well as a flavor of Calvinism that doubts reason can do anything right because of sin.

    I have a number of friends who are Fundamentalist Baptist. They sound a lot like Jerry in his comment above, to be honest. For them, using logic and reason are suspect, because it’s faith and only faith that matters. In their minds, to use reason is contrary to faith because somehow it diminishes its importance – it’s pagan. Needless to say, we have had to agree to disagree on these matters. I also have a friend who is an Episcopalian, and I’m afraid she typifies what I read about the Episcopalian church these days – they’re on board with all of this gender-affirming garbage, which certainly is anti-reason, anti-reality. I have a few Lutheran friends as well, and how much they would or would not agree with JP2’s statement is dependant upon what synod they’re in (here in my little town, we have Missouri, Wisconsin, and ELCA synods).

    I went to many different Protestant churches as a child, including Baptist ones, and the only times I heard anything like Jerry’s viewpoint were from Jack Chick cartoons, or second-hand accounts of Bob Jones University. That said, many do believe that there are elements of Christianity that one must simply take on faith, but not that reason and logic are inherently suspect or pagan concepts.

    Your mileage may vary. Protestant views and doctrines vary wildly, and so my experience with the Protestants I know might be very different from yours. There are probably regional differences as well. Also, class might affect the kind of Protestants you are exposed to: in my case, I live in a small town and have good relations with my neighbors despite political and religious differences. There’s a wide range of educational backgrounds, much more than one might find in a more homogeneous suburb. 

    Jack Chick tracts are still around. I found my most recent one in a porta-potty in a nearby state park where I take daily walks. I thought the setting perfectly appropriate for its level of theology.

    • #38
  9. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

     

    All foundations can be changed or destroyed, or made irrelevant; to say otherwise is a matter of faith. :P

    As for Notre Dame, in exactly what way is it affiliated with the Catholic Church, beyond initial establishment and tradition? I’ve wondered why they don’t either reign in the faculty/administrators or simply cut ties or funding towards them, and whether its a matter of power or discretion?

    Yes, of course it is a matter of faith: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”  So unless I believe that Jesus is lying, I conclude that the Church’s foundations cannot be destroyed.

    As for Notre Dame, I don’t know the answer. I think it might be that their affiliation with the Catholic Church was, as you mention, their initial establishment and tradition. The same is true for the College of St. Thomas here in Minnesota: it was founded as a Catholic institution, and for a long time the archbishop was on its board, but those days are long gone. It has an excellent Catholic Studies program (or so I’ve been told), but otherwise is secular.

    • #39
  10. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Have we reached a point where we can now identify a new heresy, the heresy of the normalization of homosexuality?  

    • #40
  11. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents. 

    • #41
  12. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents.

    And yet he uses reason himself, employing premises on behalf of conclusions.  Funny, that.  Also funny how Calvin, a reader of philosophy as well as theology, gives reasoned arguments. Funny how C. S. Lewis is one of the great Christian philosophers of his century. The bit of Melanchthon translated for the first time here is a lovely argument for a classical education.

    One almost wonders if a bit of Luther quoted out of context should be less than decisive.

    • #42
  13. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents.

    And yet he uses reason himself, employing premises on behalf of conclusions. Funny, that. Also funny how Calvin, a reader of philosophy as well as theology, gives reasoned arguments. Funny how C. S. Lewis is one of the great Christian philosophers of his century. The bit of Melanchthon translated for the first time here is a lovely argument for a classical education.

    One almost wonders if a bit of Luther quoted out of context should be less than decisive.

    Early Protestantism was extremely skeptical of reason. That quote is not an anomaly. There is no wiggle room in that quote. It’s pretty definitive and a famous quote. Look it up. It wouldn’t be famous if it were out of context

    • #43
  14. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    On this point (as on others), Protestants are normally on the same page as Catholics.

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents.

    And yet he uses reason himself, employing premises on behalf of conclusions. Funny, that. Also funny how Calvin, a reader of philosophy as well as theology, gives reasoned arguments. Funny how C. S. Lewis is one of the great Christian philosophers of his century. The bit of Melanchthon translated for the first time here is a lovely argument for a classical education.

    One almost wonders if a bit of Luther quoted out of context should be less than decisive.

    Early Protestantism was extremely skeptical of reason. That quote is not an anomaly. There is no wiggle room in that quote. It’s pretty definitive and a famous quote. Look it up. It wouldn’t be famous if it were out of context

    Oh, yes it would.  How many famous quotes even are taken in context?

    There is endless wiggle room.  Do you really look at that line and not wonder if–just possibly–“Reason” might be a term used in a context that defines it in some such way?  If “Christ is foolishness to the Greeks” and if believers should “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy,” but in context, why should I assume Luther means more about reason than Paul without at least seeing the surrounding paragraphs.

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions.  And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    • #44
  15. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Manny (View Comment):

    Have we reached a point where we can now identify a new heresy, the heresy of the normalization of homosexuality?

    It’s not new, Manny.

    • #45
  16. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

     

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions. And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    But Calvin believed we are totally depraved, and therefore we’re incapable of sound reason. That doesn’t sound very….reasonable.

    • #46
  17. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

     

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions. And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    But Calvin believed we are totally depraved, and therefore we’re incapable of sound reason. That doesn’t sound very….reasonable.

    Sound reason is good.  We’re incapable of it by ourselves. Reason without revelation can prove some things about G-d. Reason healed by faith can do more.  Seems reasonable enough.  Maybe even largely correct.

    • #47
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

     

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents.

    And yet he uses reason himself, employing premises on behalf of conclusions. Funny, that. Also funny how Calvin, a reader of philosophy as well as theology, gives reasoned arguments. Funny how C. S. Lewis is one of the great Christian philosophers of his century. The bit of Melanchthon translated for the first time here is a lovely argument for a classical education.

    One almost wonders if a bit of Luther quoted out of context should be less than decisive.

    Early Protestantism was extremely skeptical of reason. That quote is not an anomaly. There is no wiggle room in that quote. It’s pretty definitive and a famous quote. Look it up. It wouldn’t be famous if it were out of context

    Oh, yes it would. How many famous quotes even are taken in context?

    There is endless wiggle room. Do you really look at that line and not wonder if–just possibly–“Reason” might be a term used in a context that defines it in some such way? If “Christ is foolishness to the Greeks” and if believers should “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy,” but in context, why should I assume Luther means more about reason than Paul without at least seeing the surrounding paragraphs.

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions. And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    Early Protestantism was consciously anti scholasticism. Your last paragraph is exactly right. That’s what it means to be theologically anti reason. The Catholic Church believes you can know God through reason, though you need divine revelation to know the details. 

    • #48
  19. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

     

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions. And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    But Calvin believed we are totally depraved, and therefore we’re incapable of sound reason. That doesn’t sound very….reasonable.

    And not just Calvin. Luther too. 

    • #49
  20. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Oh contraire. Luther, Calvin, and I assume Zwingli, though I’m speculating on Zwingli, they were most definitely anti-reason. Hers just a quick quote:

    “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther

    I think you need to read up on Protestant founding documents.

    And yet he uses reason himself, employing premises on behalf of conclusions. Funny, that. Also funny how Calvin, a reader of philosophy as well as theology, gives reasoned arguments. Funny how C. S. Lewis is one of the great Christian philosophers of his century. The bit of Melanchthon translated for the first time here is a lovely argument for a classical education.

    One almost wonders if a bit of Luther quoted out of context should be less than decisive.

    Early Protestantism was extremely skeptical of reason. That quote is not an anomaly. There is no wiggle room in that quote. It’s pretty definitive and a famous quote. Look it up. It wouldn’t be famous if it were out of context

    Oh, yes it would. How many famous quotes even are taken in context?

    There is endless wiggle room. Do you really look at that line and not wonder if–just possibly–“Reason” might be a term used in a context that defines it in some such way? If “Christ is foolishness to the Greeks” and if believers should “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy,” but in context, why should I assume Luther means more about reason than Paul without at least seeing the surrounding paragraphs.

    What “Early Protestantism”–itself a diverse group–is skeptical of is the ability of reason to know G-d without G-d’s help. And you still have Luther and Calvin using reason–making arguments, with premises matched to their conclusions. And you see Calvin describing how much reason can do to prove some things about G-d.

    Early Protestantism was consciously anti scholasticism. Your last paragraph is exactly right. That’s what it means to be theologically anti reason. The Catholic Church believes you can know God through reason, though you need divine revelation to know the details.

    You have a funny way of using the term “anti-reason.”

    Reason 100% agrees with faith, only we tend to do reason wrong without faith, and . . . that’s anti-reason?

    • #50
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Have we reached a point where we can now identify a new heresy, the heresy of the normalization of homosexuality?

    It’s not new, Manny.

    Well, I was referring to the last 50-ish years. How far back are you referring to as not new?

    • #51
  22. kylez Member
    kylez
    @kylez

    GFHandle (View Comment):

    As I understand Catholic teaching, sexual orientations per se are not sinful. Sexual acts outside of marriage (and inside, too, depending) may be sinful. So no one’s “identity” is a sin or in any way an affront. So saying that people with these orientations are welcome and valued is not anti-Catholic.

    That said, jumping on the identity parade bandwagon shows that a whole lot of other Christian values (like not paying attention so much to earthly status, not putting the self at the center, etc.) have been forgotten. Notre Dame should just say that we abhor the mistreatment of any person because of their race, sexual orientation, political opinions, and the like and let it go at that. But that wouldn’t feel so groovy now, would it?

    Or just not say anything, which can be more powerful a response, especially since Pride month is so bogus anyway.

    • #52
  23. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    You are correct that I am not Catholic.

    Historically, I think that this Catholic concept, and the “natural law” doctrine that it inspired, was a major source of the pagan ideas of the so-called Enlightenment, which gave rise to the pagan faith of Liberty and Reason that I identify.

    What Pope John Paul wrote above is contrary to what the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1.

    This is not unusual in Catholicism. Where their doctrines are contrary to the Bible, Catholics stick with their doctrines. This is the fundamental divide between Protestantism and Catholicism.

    Lots of work to do- you are very wrong. Try reading After the Natural Law by John Lawrence Hill- or something like it.

    • #53
  24. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

     

    It seems to me that many Christians and Catholics have tried to harmonize this pagan faith in Liberty and Reason with Christian and Catholic teaching. I did this myself for many years. I don’t find this a viable position any more.

    You’re not Catholic, so you might not be familiar with the Catholic concept of the unity of Truth. Faith and Reason are not in conflict. Indeed, as St. John Paul 2 put it, “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”.

    You are correct that I am not Catholic.

    Historically, I think that this Catholic concept, and the “natural law” doctrine that it inspired, was a major source of the pagan ideas of the so-called Enlightenment, which gave rise to the pagan faith of Liberty and Reason that I identify.

    What Pope John Paul wrote above is contrary to what the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1.

    This is not unusual in Catholicism. Where their doctrines are contrary to the Bible, Catholics stick with their doctrines. This is the fundamental divide between Protestantism and Catholicism.

    Spell it out Jerry, what does Pope JP2 contradict in 1 Cor 1?

    • #54
  25. Headedwest Coolidge
    Headedwest
    @Headedwest

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. ND has about 12,800 students, 8,900 undergrads and 3,900 grad students. There will be a number of those that make demands that ND publicly accept and endorse views that are contrary to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    My advice to the Holy Cross priests and brothers is that you will never satisfy their demands to conform to the tyranny of popular opinion. When you surrender to one demand the following day will produce another demand, and then another from the perpetually aggrieved.

    The simplest way to avoid this for ND is to ignore Twitter and advocacy groups when it comes to demanding such things as Pride Month appear on the ND calendar. The demands will cease with exercising one of most beautiful words in the English language; ‘No’. No and then refusing to discuss why the answer is no.

    Good advice. What are the odds they will do this?

    • #55
  26. db25db Inactive
    db25db
    @db25db

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Another “hold my beer” moment from the US Embassy in Vatican City.

     

    I have concluded that we live in a evil, wicked country, and we are a major source of evil in the world. This is the ideology that we export. It does seem like the Iranians have a point about us, doesn’t it?

    Where I probably differ from most of you is that I view the perverted rainbow agenda as the natural conclusion of the principal American ideology that has existed since approximately WWII. The first generation raised in that ideology gave us the 1960s. It is the ideology of Liberty and Toleration. It leads to feminism, heterosexual immorality of all kinds including illegitimacy and abortion, family breakdown, declining birthrates, the denigration of Christian culture and traditions, and somewhat later, support for sexual perversion of escalating intensity.

    The ideology of Liberty did exist before WWII, but seems to have had relatively little influence on the culture. It did set the stage for what came later. I think that we can see a substitution of this new ideology in the Civil War, with its substitution of freedom for holiness as the goal, and in the early so-called Progressive movement, women’s suffrage, and other changes in the law around 1920.

    It is an alternative religion, contrary to Christianity, and expressly promoted as a religion in our Declaration of Independence. The Declaration asserts that government exists to protect “rights,” which are expressly said to come from God, so anyone who disagrees is on the side of Satan. This is not the Biblical purpose of government, as in both the Old and New Testament, government exists to punish the wicked.

    Liberty is not the light of the world. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.

    You are free to give up your liberty, Arizona Patriot.   Start with your right to speak your mind and your guns.

    • #56
  27. BDB Inactive
    BDB
    @BDB

    University of Not a Dame.

    • #57
  28. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    If you really want to know what went wrong, a good start is the fantastic series of lectures by Peter Kreeft (based on his Socrates Children books). Below is the 1st:

     

    #3(Aristotle vs Kant on Epistomology)  and #4 (Augustine vs Sartre on the Difference God Makes) would also be useful.

    • #58
  29. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    MiMac (View Comment):

    If you really want to know what went wrong, a good start is the fantastic series of lectures by Peter Kreeft (based on his Socrates Children books). Below is the 1st:

     

    #3(Aristotle vs Kant on Epistomology) and #4 (Augustine vs Sartre on the Difference God Makes) would also be useful.

    Oh I started that and after a couple of episodes forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me about it. It is very good. Actually what happened is that baseball season started and I spend my evenings watching baseball now. I will have to go back to it but I don’t know how I can fit it into my schedule. 

    • #59
  30. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Class of 85 here.

    When I was there, liberals were numerous, but so were conservatives.  I remember Mario Cuomo was heralded as a catholic savior by a lot of people, but certainly not by all.

    My brother is a C.S.C. priest* and he spent almost a decade working as an assistant dean there.  My brother is a flaming liberal.  I like to say he’s the black sheep of the family.

    I went for a visit a few years ago, right before the corona and was shocked at how big the campus is now.

    Universities get lots of basically free money from student loans.  They can charge whatever they want and the loans dangled in front of students are accepted without question.  This has ruined every university in the country, and for most has fostered the rise of really bad ideologies and politics.

    I just watched “What is a Woman” which is free for 24 hours and it convinced me that it doesn’t much matter what this school or that school are doing anymore.  The damage is done and it is permanent.  We are done as a society.  We have nothing left but old men to shake their fists at the storm while their rotten kids destroy everything that they inherit.

    *C.S.C. = Congregation of the Holy Cross, which in Latin comes out to those letters.  It’s the order that founded and owns Notre Dame and also St. Edwards University in Austin, both founded by the same man, Fr. Edward Sorin.

    • #60
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