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What’s Up with the Inversion of Mentalities?
I was listening to a recent podcast of Mock and Daisy and they were mentioning how all their progressive friends want to fund the Ukraine war effort and how they as righties basically think this war is a useless money pit. They were surprised how their old hippie friends and now gung-ho for war and now they seem like the anti-Vietnam protestors.
What are the psychological reasons for the sharp switch? I know the policy reasons for and against pretty well and I am sure that the vast majority of my fellow Ricochetti do as well but I am more interested in the underlying psychology for so many lefties to Ukraine and why there are such deep divisions on the right?
What kind of value sets lead one to support to Ukraine and another to complain about spending one red cent in the current war?Published in General
I would guess that six years of anti-Russian propaganda related to the 2016 election and Hunter’s laptop has something to do with it. It was a requirement on the left to believe those stories in order to more thoroughly hate Trump, and the Trump hate runs so deep that I think it boomerangs back to taint Russia in turn. By now, they’ve worked themselves into such a froth that they’re ready to nuke them.
I think an interesting comparison would be between people who opposed or supported the first Gulf War in which one sovereign country, Iraq, invaded another, Kuwait, versus those oppose or support this war of one sovereign country, Russia, invading another, Ukraine.
There’s a big difference in supporting or protesting the intervention or interference, depending on how one looks at it, in a civil war versus a war between sovereign nations.
This has been something bizarre for me to watch. It’s an amazing amount of patriotism for Ukraine that is never reflected back here. People on the news swooning over patriotic and brave language from Zelensky that they would mock from any US president. People will advocate mass armament of Ukraine but gun control here, hold the Ukrainian border sacred but advocate for no US border control, etc. It feels like some weird proxy for American politics.
There’s also this weird group of people on the right who actually are cheering on Putin, not just wanting us to walk away. It’s perfectly rational to say Putin is a tyrant and a butcher, but he’s not our problem. Saying Xi is performing great evil toward the Uighers does not imply that we must get involved. Those are two separate questions.
There’s also the switch going on for who hates the CIA and FBI. It’s probably over whose ox is being gored but in the end the agencies have always been corrupt.
It’s rooting for the underdog, the minority.
There’s a lot of ego to be gained, “moral superiority,” by standing up for Them.
It also explains why They hate America.
Most of it is partisan politics pure and simple. On both sides. FJB does it so it’s required that the Left gives their full throated support…no questions asked or even allowed. And because FJB does it many on the Right despise it. The Right’s reaction is bolstered by the isolationist tendencies long held by some on the Right.
the Soviet’sRussia’s military resources while at the same time studying their tactics is pretty important. However, we shouldn’t be depleting our own reserves of weaponry in the process.
I heard the podcast too, and the contrast was interesting . . .
My theory is that the left have never been anti-war. They were anti-Bush. Obama’s foreign policy wasn’t much different than Bush’s. And it is fair to say that he inherited Bush’s mess, but he also had eight years to change course.
All modern wars have been started by the progressive left.
The Spanish American War was started by progressives. A shady incident in Cuba somehow turns into the American people fighting to Christianize the Philippine people…
World War One, World War Two, Korea and Vietnam, all started by Democrats.
George Bush had the exact same policy as the early 20th century progressives. The W in George W may as well stood for Woodrow.
It’s not an inversion. The “right” that supported Vietnam also supported maintaining our own defenses such as strategic weapons, ABM systems, etc. The left did not and does not now. That is what makes this particularly bizarre. The left continues to disarm the US of the weapons we would need to fight Russia while picking a fight with Russia.
Putin bragged that 91% of his nuclear arsenal was modern while nearly our entire nuclear arsenal is probably not merely older than Henry but downgraded from what we had back in the day.
The big questions of this war are “When did Moscow lose the keys to the American left and to whom?” Moscow appeared to have them from 1917 through the beginning of 2022.
For decades the American left suffered the burden of Soviet oppression as a big stain on socialist/communist wonderfulness. Happy BS about “real” communism not having been tried was a cognitive necessity given the depredations of Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung and even Pol Pot.
Now, Russia is a close Trump ally (everybody knows that which is why they suppressed and shut down Mueller), openly fascist (under the broad faculty room meaning of the term) so hating Putin is almost as liberating and self-congratulatory as opposing South African apartheid and it is cathartic not to have duck, deny or characterize Russian bad behavior.
However, when President DeSantis has to clarify the policy and try to end the bloodshed and the money drain, it will be OK to oppose the war.
This weird thought occurred to me: could comparing Vietnam to Ukraine wars have anything to do with the Left favoring the latter? We know the Left is racist, so could they have hated being in a war that had anything to do with Asians?
Hmm, interesting question.
I’m not sure that it’s psychological. I think that it’s ideological. The thing that’s shifted is “our” ideology, meaning the ideology of the United States.
Ask yourself: which side of the war supports traditional Christian conservative values?
I realize that this is strange, but I think that it’s true. Putin, for all his flaws, actually supports traditional family values and Christianity.
I understand how bizarre it is for these values to be supported by an ex-KGB officer, and for these values to be opposed by the US, NATO, and the EU. But this is what’s happened.
This explains the position of the Left, doesn’t it? In Vietnam, they opposed Christian civilization, by supporting the Vietcong. In Ukraine, they oppose Christian civilization, by supporting the NATO/EU/Ukrainian side.
FYI, my suspicion is that Ukraine itself is a lot more traditional and Christian than NATO or the EU, but NATO and the EU want to push Leftist and even Wokeist values into Ukraine.
Before Muslims became loveable underdogs to the left, there was a big push towards atheism after 9/11. I’m talking about the New Atheism movement that produced guys like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. “Everyone was to blame” for the 9/11 attacks because “religion causes all wars.”
There was a push rid the world of all religion. Some on the left framed it as brown people being led down the wrong path by their unscientific fanaticism. So in some ways, they were still attacking Christianity because they fought against the traditionalist aspects that Christianity and Muslims share.
This gets a little murkier years later when the left adopts globalism. They still adopt the underdog mindset in that Muslims are brown people being oppressed by whites. But they have to hold their nose when confronted with the traditional, religious attitudes towards women and homosexuality.
I agree. If Joe Biden rediscovered his Catholic faith and announced he is henceforth pro-life and Donald Trump reverted to the position he took on abortion about a dozen years ago, I think you would see a lot of Americans reverse their position on abortion overnight. I think a significant number of people choose where they stand based on where people they admire or despise stand. We haven’t gone so far down this road that Republicans are swearing off ice cream and Democrats are swearing off cheeseburgers, but I won’t be shocked if we arrive at that point.
Putin ‘supports’ the Orthodox Church only because he’s seen first hand how the Church was a fulcrum in opposition to the old Soviet state and was central to the breakup of the Soviet Union. He’ll not make the same mistake.
It must be so cool to be able to read Putin’s mind! Can you read everyone’s mind, or just Putin?
Personally, I have no idea whether Putin’s professed Christian faith is genuine. You don’t seem to dispute that he publicly supports the Christian faith, which is more than we can say for our own President, or for the other major EU and NATO leaders. He also supports traditional family and sexual values, right?
In short, Putin appears to be on my side of the culture war. Biden and the bulk of the EU and NATO leaders are on the other side. Do you not agree with this?
Even Republican leaders in the US are quite weak on this issue, by the way. Trump wasn’t very strong on Christianity or family values, other than abortion.
“In short, Putin appears to be on my side of the culture war”
Okey Dokey…if you say so. I’d be very, very careful about using that as your sole yardstick. Personally, I’d take “weak on Christian and family values” Trump over professing Christians Romney and Biden any day.
Putin blew up Russian apartment buildings killing hundreds and maiming thousands so he could (1) blame it on Chechen militants and (2) win him the Presidency. But no worries, he’s pro family and supports the Church. No thanks.
One thing I noticed once I turned to conservative principles, was that there had been many Republicans in Congress who opposed the war in Vietnam. This was especially the case when it became apparent that the main reason we were there was due to the war industry desiring greater and greater profits.
However for whatever reason, once an individual accepts being part of the Left, the individual tends to believe the many anti-war, pro-peace statements the Dem leadership offers up, even though the leadership never follows up with activities that end wars.
I see a lot of folks on the right feel “once burned, twice shy” after the failures of our “Nation Building” schemes in the Mid-East, North Africa and South Asia. With that experience it’s understandable they’d be skeptical of any new military adventures.
Yes. We have what is now becoming a long-running history of quagmire building instead of nation building.
I realize that this is strange, but I think that it’s true. Putin, for all his flaws, actually supports traditional family values and Christianity.
That is certainly news to me. Where did you learn that, may I ask?
The Russian government hates gay people.
That’s the reason.
I am very pro-democracy and anti-dictatorship. That’s why I support Ukraine and oppose Putin.
I didn’t get my pro-life views from Donald Trump.
Added after reading the comments. So this post represents Ricochet in that it is more of conversational thread than an opinion piece. I’ve decided to become something like the overseer of conversations and summarize (hopefully in a helpful manner) the underlying ideas behind the left and right with regard to Ukraine.
1 a ) Putin is associated with Trump ergo Putin is evil and those that oppose him are good.
1 b) Putin is also anti-gay Zelesnky is automatically a good guy.
2) Ukraine is the underdog and the left assumes that the underdog is good.
1 a) Some of the right have always been isolationist.
1 b) The right tends to be more isolationist if it doesn’t see an immediate threat to America’s interest and many interpret Ukraine as not being composed of a threat.
1 c) The right is pretty burned out on nation-building thus increasing isolationist tendencies.
2) There is a distrust of the state in general and the deep state even more. The CIA and increasingly the elite in the military are Woke democrats and many rightists are prone to disagree with any of their plans.
This is a complex subject.
As far as the people on the Left are concerned they are essentially utterly and totally brainwashed, and have been psychologically conditioned and programed to never even consider a thought outside the “Narrative”. When talking to them if you are paying attention you will see visceral negative ticks appear on their faces and bodies when certain verboten subjects are confronted.
Let me explain. The Mainstream Media along with Big Tech and their massive Data Mining mega-computer driven programs has created individual program profiles for each one of us so every bit of Mainstream/High Tech driven news and marketing information you get has been pre-driven to push you based upon your profile in a certain ideological and/or marketing direction with any information that run counter to the “Narrative” not only deleted, and censored but if out in public heavily criticized.
Together with our school system’s ideological programming, most adults now have been taught to be drone followers and to never ever question authority, particularly that of big government. Outside the box thinking and actual innovation has been discouraged.
The people on the Left while many have fancy University degrees and big honors, they are simply not thinkers, and do not have the intellectual curiosity that old fashioned “Liberals” once did. The ones who do exhibit intellectual curiosity have been brainwashed to avoid certain subjects like history and/or anything that would lead one to question the “Narrative”. Most on the Left know nothing of history and don’t want to know anything of history.
Old Fashioned “liberals” were free spirits and questioned virtually everything. Remember the bumper stickers “Question Authority”; those stickers represented what they actually believed. Now many through the data mined psychological conditioning, have been taught to reject any questioning of Authority.
People on the Right are a mixed bag.
Many preferred going way back to follow Authority figures and this continues today even though those Authority figures now represent the Left.
And many who preferred to the “status quo” and to not rock the boat are inclined to believe what the Mainstream media pushes on them and to revile against those who think “outside the box” as being somehow crazed fringe people, even though there is a mountain of evidence that our government with the help of Big Media and Big Tech has a very sophisticated censorship/intimidation/ propaganda machine that is trying to enslave us with their propaganda and censorship.
As far as the War goes, the CIA/Deep State/ WEF have been pushing a pr0-war agenda for at least 8 years now. While in Ukraine, there are long term ethnic animosities and likely atrocities on both sides, our government clearly has been lying to us, particularly with the Biden and Victoria Nulands of the world involved, and for whatever reason including the idea that we are “losing” big, our side is pushing to escalate the world which could easily end up in a nuclear war.
The right figured out that “American National Security” and the “post war order” is a big global socialist grift and crony grift while America suffers and the middle class suffers. The left are socialists so they are for shipping our money to people who didn’t earn it and creating rights to it and moral necessities out of thin air. Conservatives who support this money pit are retards who can’t update their software.
You are lovely as always.
Part is ideological. They aren’t supporting Ukraine as much as they are supporting Biden. If a republican were President, it would be all opposition from the Left.
Part is power hunger. The dirty old hippies were powerless and fought The Man. They have slowly marched through the institutions and have become The Man. And they like it because they have the power to inflict their will on the people.