Wise Men from Where?

 

I don’t think Epiphany gets the status it deserves anymore. It never did while I was growing up. My wife, raised Catholic, remembers that decorations were up until then. Now, there is a Church tradition (as opposed to scripture) that the Wise Men showed up for Epiphany: Twelfth Night, which marks the arrival of the three wise men/kings in Bethlehem who delivered gifts to the baby Jesus. Now, I am not going to get into a theological debate here. I just have been thinking about this tradition.

See, the Wise Men, whatever their number, were not Jews. They were not even Romans. They were from outside the “civilized” world to the East. Here they come to offer homage to the “King of the Jews.” What on earth would three Zoroastrians (or whatever) being doing that for? They had to pass up other, greater earthly kings to get there. Even acknowledging the divinity of Christ, why worship a King of the Jews, the Son of the Jewish God? It seems strange to me.

It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone. He did not come for just the Jews, but for all Mankind. Christ comes to Earth for all of us. I have always liked this final lines of one of my favorite Christmas hymns:

Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
“Glory to the newborn King!”

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

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  1. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Bryan G. Stephens: What on earth would three Zoroastrians (or whatever) being doing that for?

    I’ve seen thoughts that the Magi were from the area of the Babylonian exile and were familiar with Daniel’s teachings. 

    • #1
  2. Ansonia Member
    Ansonia
    @Ansonia

    Thank you for writing this. The wise men are fascinating to me.

    I’m also not sure it is so wrong to call them “kings”. Isn’t it possible they were leaders of groups of people in which the leaders were also the priests of the religion ?

    I’m thinking we should celebrate the day.

    • #2
  3. MWD B612 "Dawg" Member
    MWD B612 "Dawg"
    @danok1

    For we Orthodox Christians (at least the Greek Orthodox Church), today is the Great Feast of Theophany (Epiphany), the baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ by the Glorious Prophet and Forerunner John the Baptist. From the GOA website:

    About the beginning of our Lord’s thirtieth year, John the Forerunner, who was some six months older than Our Saviour according to the flesh, and had lived in the wilderness since his childhood, received a command from God and came into the parts of the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. Then our Saviour also came from Galilee to the Jordan, and sought and received baptism though He was the Master and John was but a servant. Whereupon, there came to pass those marvellous deeds, great and beyond nature: the Heavens were opened, the Spirit descended in the form of a dove upon Him that was being baptized and the voice was heard from the Heavens hearing witness that this was the beloved Son of God, now baptized as a man (Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:1-22). From these events the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the great mystery of the Trinity were demonstrated. It is also from this that the present feast is called “Theophany,” that is, the divine manifestation, God’s appearance among men. On this venerable day the sacred mystery of Christian baptism was inaugurated; henceforth also began the saving preaching of the Kingdom of the Heavens.

     

     

    • #3
  4. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: What on earth would three Zoroastrians (or whatever) being doing that for?

    I’ve seen thoughts that the Magi were from the area of the Babylonian exile and were familiar with Daniel’s teachings.

    Persian or Babylonian fits as the Babylonian exile spans the conquering of Babylon by Persia.

    • #4
  5. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Bryan G. Stephens:

    See, the Wise Men, whatever their number, were not Jews.

    Unless Raymond Arroyo is right. (And the scholars he cites.)

    • #5
  6. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    For we Orthodox Christians (at least the Greek Orthodox Church), today is the Great Feast of Theophany (Epiphany), the baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ by the Glorious Prophet and Forerunner John the Baptist. From the GOA website:

    About the beginning of our Lord’s thirtieth year, John the Forerunner, who was some six months older than Our Saviour according to the flesh, and had lived in the wilderness since his childhood, received a command from God and came into the parts of the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. Then our Saviour also came from Galilee to the Jordan, and sought and received baptism though He was the Master and John was but a servant. Whereupon, there came to pass those marvellous deeds, great and beyond nature: the Heavens were opened, the Spirit descended in the form of a dove upon Him that was being baptized and the voice was heard from the Heavens hearing witness that this was the beloved Son of God, now baptized as a man (Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:1-22). From these events the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the great mystery of the Trinity were demonstrated. It is also from this that the present feast is called “Theophany,” that is, the divine manifestation, God’s appearance among men. On this venerable day the sacred mystery of Christian baptism was inaugurated; henceforth also began the saving preaching of the Kingdom of the Heavens.

     

     

    It is also that across Christendom. Our Church will celebrate it on Sunday. 

     

    • #6
  7. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    MWD B612 "Dawg" (View Comment):

    For we Orthodox Christians (at least the Greek Orthodox Church), today is the Great Feast of Theophany (Epiphany), the baptism of our Lord Jesus Christ by the Glorious Prophet and Forerunner John the Baptist. From the GOA website:

    About the beginning of our Lord’s thirtieth year, John the Forerunner, who was some six months older than Our Saviour according to the flesh, and had lived in the wilderness since his childhood, received a command from God and came into the parts of the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. Then our Saviour also came from Galilee to the Jordan, and sought and received baptism though He was the Master and John was but a servant. Whereupon, there came to pass those marvellous deeds, great and beyond nature: the Heavens were opened, the Spirit descended in the form of a dove upon Him that was being baptized and the voice was heard from the Heavens hearing witness that this was the beloved Son of God, now baptized as a man (Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:1-22). From these events the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the great mystery of the Trinity were demonstrated. It is also from this that the present feast is called “Theophany,” that is, the divine manifestation, God’s appearance among men. On this venerable day the sacred mystery of Christian baptism was inaugurated; henceforth also began the saving preaching of the Kingdom of the Heavens.

     

     

    Oh I didn’t know that! That’s really cool! My youngest was baptized during epiphany.

    • #7
  8. Ole Summers Member
    Ole Summers
    @OleSummers

    I have also thought it worth noting the “wise men” of accepted knowledge traveled TO the Child in the most humble of places as an acknowledgement and not the other way around. And that governmental powers were actually avoided, they had no place in the process.

    • #8
  9. Red Herring Coolidge
    Red Herring
    @EHerring

    This is an interesting thought. I have always accepted the “wise men” as is, without further analysis.

    • #9
  10. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone. He did not come for just the Jews, but for all Mankind. Christ comes to Earth for all of us.

    That’s a good point to take away from the story. Also, shepherds don’t seem like the first group of people to whom I’d make the announcement of the world’s savior arriving.

    • #10
  11. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):
    Also, shepherds don’t seem like the first group of people to whom I’d make the announcement of the world’s savior arriving.

    Shepherds, now as then, were outsiders and often outcasts, taking a lonely, low-status, and low-paying job because they had few or no other opportunities. Who better to be the first to receive that message? Who more appropriate?

    • #11
  12. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    A  blessed Epiphany to you all.

    • #12
  13. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone. He did not come for just the Jews, but for all Mankind. Christ comes to Earth for all of us.

    That’s a good point to take away from the story. Also, shepherds don’t seem like the first group of people to whom I’d make the announcement of the world’s savior arriving.

    I’m a huge fan of the theory that the temple sheep were born and raised on the hillsides around Bethlehem.

    • #13
  14. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    Shepherds, now as then, were outsiders and often outcasts, taking a lonely, low-status, and low-paying job because they had few or no other opportunities. Who better to be the first to receive that message? Who more appropriate?

    Jacob and his sons were shepherds, apart from Joseph during his Egyptian exile. So appearing to people who embodied Jacob’s profession is keeping with God previous actions.

    • #14
  15. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    An excellent book we read on this subject in my book club last year was Mystery of the Magi by Dwight Longenecker. 
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34557850-mystery-of-the-magi

    He dwells on all the Biblical and external evidence and reduces it down. Gosh, I forget what the culture they came from was called but not Zoroasterns. Somewhere in the Saudi Arabian peninsula. He was quite convincing. If you scroll down that Goodreads entry you might even find my book review. ;)

    • #15
  16. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Manny (View Comment):

    An excellent book we read on this subject in my book club last year was Mystery of the Magi by Dwight Longenecker.
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34557850-mystery-of-the-magi

    He dwells on all the Biblical and external evidence and reduces it down. Gosh, I forget what the culture they came from was called but not Zoroasterns. Somewhere in the Saudi Arabian peninsula. He was quite convincing. If you scroll down that Goodreads entry you might even find my book review. ;)

    Sounds like some of the background to the Raymond Arroyo book.

    I haven’t even read it. Might get it for the kids for Christmas next year. Arroyo appeared on Federalist and Klavan.

    • #16
  17. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    An excellent book we read on this subject in my book club last year was Mystery of the Magi by Dwight Longenecker.
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34557850-mystery-of-the-magi

    He dwells on all the Biblical and external evidence and reduces it down. Gosh, I forget what the culture they came from was called but not Zoroasterns. Somewhere in the Saudi Arabian peninsula. He was quite convincing. If you scroll down that Goodreads entry you might even find my book review. ;)

    Sounds like some of the background to the Raymond Arroyo book.

    I haven’t even read it. Might get it for the kids for Christmas next year. Arroyo appeared on Federalist and Klavan.

    Yeah, I thought the same thing when I saw the Arroyo book. His is a children’s book I think. 

    • #17
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Manny (View Comment):

    An excellent book we read on this subject in my book club last year was Mystery of the Magi by Dwight Longenecker.
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34557850-mystery-of-the-magi

    He dwells on all the Biblical and external evidence and reduces it down. Gosh, I forget what the culture they came from was called but not Zoroasterns. Somewhere in the Saudi Arabian peninsula. He was quite convincing. If you scroll down that Goodreads entry you might even find my book review. ;)

    The Nabateans. That’s the culture Longenecker identifies as the origin of the Magi. 

    • #18
  19. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    • #19
  20. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    Shepherds, now as then, were outsiders and often outcasts, taking a lonely, low-status, and low-paying job because they had few or no other opportunities. Who better to be the first to receive that message? Who more appropriate?

    Jacob and his sons were shepherds, apart from Joseph during his Egyptian exile. So appearing to people who embodied Jacob’s profession is keeping with God previous actions.

    He is the Good Shepherd, naturally he holds his fellow shepherds in high regard.

    • #20
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    • #21
  22. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    • #22
  23. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    Very good. :-)

    • #23
  24. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    I’m not sure that the gifts were limited to three, but there were at least three highlighted gifts of note.  In my faith tradition, there was also a gift of fruitcake given, that is still preserved and in perfect condition in a chased tin reliquary on Elephantine Island.

    • #24
  25. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    I’m not sure that the gifts were limited to three, but there were at least three highlighted gifts of note. In my faith tradition, there was also a gift of fruitcake given, that is still preserved and in perfect condition in a chased tin reliquary on Elephantine Island.

    So delicious even Mary didn’t want to eat it.

    • #25
  26. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Stina (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    I’m not sure that the gifts were limited to three, but there were at least three highlighted gifts of note. In my faith tradition, there was also a gift of fruitcake given, that is still preserved and in perfect condition in a chased tin reliquary on Elephantine Island.

    So delicious even Mary didn’t want to eat it.

    But how does one explain the empty bottle of Cherry Heering?

    • #26
  27. Stina Inactive
    Stina
    @CM

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens: It is seeming to me the whole point of this story is that Christ really did come for everyone.

    Indeed, there’s a tradition in art of depicting one king as European, one as African, and one as Asian, to show that they represent all nations, races, and peoples of the world.

    Where does it say there were three?

    Artistically rendered as 3 because there are 3 gifts.

    I’m not sure that the gifts were limited to three, but there were at least three highlighted gifts of note. In my faith tradition, there was also a gift of fruitcake given, that is still preserved and in perfect condition in a chased tin reliquary on Elephantine Island.

    So delicious even Mary didn’t want to eat it.

    But how does one explain the empty bottle of Cherry Heering?

    Commemorating Herod’s contribution to the Christmas story?

    • #27
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