Ricochet is the best place on the internet to discuss the issues of the day, either through commenting on posts or writing your own for our active and dynamic community in a fully moderated environment. In addition, the Ricochet Audio Network offers over 50 original podcasts with new episodes released every day.
PSA: Don’t Let Your Children Be Art Majors at Murray State — Troy Senik
Over the past few years, as anxiety about the value proposition of college has spread, there have been increasing calls for transparency in higher education, such as the 2012 proposal by Senators Marco Rubio and Ron Wyden to make data about employment and earnings for graduates available to the public.
While that proposal is still floating around Congress, the folks at the Atlantic have done some of the spadework, releasing data earlier today on the most and least lucrative colleges and majors. Here’s what they found.
10 Schools Where Graduates Had the Highest Income (Over a Course of 20 Years)
- Harvey Mudd (CA)
- MIT
- Caltech
- Stanford
- Stevens Institute of Technology (NJ)
- Babson (MA)
- Princeton
- NYU-Poly
- Dartmouth
- Harvard
10 Schools With Highest Return on Investment
- Virginia
- Georgia Tech
- Harvard
- William & Mary
- Washington
- Texas — Dallas
- New Mexico Tech
- Stanford
- Cooper Union
- Michigan
10 Most Lucrative Undergraduate Majors
- Stanford — Computer Science
- Columbia — Computer Science
- UC-Berkeley — Computer Science
- Harvey Mudd — Computer Science
- MIT — Computer Science
- Harvard — Computer Science
- Virginia — Computer Science
- Stanford — Economics
- Washington — Computer Science
- Carnegie Mellon — Computer Science
Schools With Worst Net Return (#1 ranking is worst)
- Shaw (NC)
- Fayetteville State (NC)
- Savannah State (GA)
- Bluefield (VA)
- North Carolina — Asheville
- Montevalla (AL)
- Adams State (CO)
- Morehead State (KY)
- Maryland Institute College of Art
For the state schools there (only Shaw and Bluefield are private), the calculations are based on out-of-state tuition, although Fayetteville State and Savannah State actually make the list on the basis of in-state tuition too. How bad is life at the bottom? At Shaw, the net return was calculated at -$121,000 over the course of 20 years.
Majors with Lowest Net Return (#1 ranking is worst)
- Murray State — Arts
- Florida International — Humanities and English
- Eastern Michigan — Arts
- Virginia Commonwealth — Education
- Bowling Green State — Education
- Western Michigan — Education
- Cal State Northridge — Humanities and English
- Ohio State — Education
- Indiana — Education
- Pittsburg State — Arts
The bottom of the barrel here? That arts major from Murray State would have been financially outpaced by a typical high school graduate to the tune of $197,000 over the course of 20 years.
Now, there’s a truckload of caveats here, as the Atlantic notes. The income is self-reported; today’s hot major may not be tomorrow’s, etc. Also, of course, a couple of these probably have just as much to do with location as with the programs themselves. I can’t speak to the quality of the computer science program at the University of Washington, for instance, but I suspect that graduates’ earnings are helped out significantly by the proximity to companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Expedia. Ditto Stanford and Silicon Valley.
Obviously there are limits to what we can deduce from the two extremes of the market, but … doesn’t this read about right? If I had a child headed off to a four-year university for a STEM degree (which would lead me to believe I wasn’t the biological father), I wouldn’t have a moment’s misgiving. For them, college really is an investment.
But liberal arts at a middle-of-the pack state school? Or even a lot of elite universities? Unless you have credential-specific aspirations, I’d probably rather buy you the great books. It’ll be a lot better than the pabulum you’ll likely get in the classroom and it also won’t put you four years behind in the job market.
Of course, I’m writing this as someone who’s closest approximation of a child is a French Bulldog. And — as the IRS has repeatedly and brusquely told me — that’s not the same thing as an actual dependent.
I’m thus curious to hear from those of you who have kids who are either in college or will be soon. How do you think about the value propositions of various schools and majors?
Published in General
Clearly, the advice was intended for artsy-type people, not STEM people. It was first applied to prevent my buddy from pursuing a degree in drama.
What’s really funny is she is as liberal as the day is long. But she went the most stereotypical conservative route of using college to find a good husband.
EDIT: Whoops, this was supposed to appear under the MRS degree comment.
The thing about STEM degrees is that demand for them is cyclical. When I was in high school in the 80’s, we were always told that massive numbers of scientists and engineers were needed. Then the Cold War ended, and scientists and engineers were in the unemployment lines. Then the Internet boom happened. And then the Internet bust happened. Etc etc etc.
One trend that seems to be accelerating is the trend of older STEM graduates staying unemployed while companies snap up younger grads that will work for a fraction of older workers, all while being wage-pressured by the voracious appetite for foreign H1B workers that will work for even less than that. If that trend continues, then it won’t matter that 9 out of 10 of the most lucrative programs are computer science, because you’ll be jobless at 48 while that 26 year old guy (or that guy from Bangladesh) gets your job. Modern software development seems to have become a live fast, (your career) dies young game. Better save every penny when you get that job at Facebook. You’re gonna need it, sooner than you think.
Well, yeah. Like I said, trades. Art, acting, and writing are trades. Rembrandt was a tradesman. So were Dickens and Dumas. (Ever wonder why the Three Musketeers has so many one- to three-word paragraphs? It was because Dumas was getting paid by the column inch. He was more interested in making money than making literature – although he succeeded at both.)
Headline:
McVEY TOTALLY AGREES WITH DOUGLAS POST, ADMIRES THE WRITING, WISHES HE’D WRITTEN IT HIMSELF
Other subheds:
Could It Be True? Wedding Bells for Jen and Marina? Page Six!
“Marxism? It Wasn’t the Best Idea, But Why Sweat It?” Says Peter Robinson at Opening of New Vape Bar at Hoover
“‘Whoopi Wasn’t the Only One Ted Was Screwing’: a Breakdown of Missing Profits from ‘Cheers'” by Tell All Author Rob Long
I have tried to get 3 boys through college. Two started out doing really well, and then got side tracked, and the other graduated. (2 made very typical “youth choices” without understanding the impact) All 3 accumulated debt. For the one that graduated, the debt is not an major issue. It was considered as part of the pro-forma income plan he did before he started school (all kids should do this). The other kids did the same pro-forma plan, except now the expected income is not there. They now have serious financial troubles. If I had a 4th kid, I would not co-sign for any loans. If it took him/her twice as long to get through school because they had to work, so be it. At least then if something throws the plan off track, they are buried in debt.
Some random thoughts (as if I ever posted any other kind).
I actually am an Art Major (BFA) with an education minor, and somehow managed to turn that into a career developing training programs for business. It’s been OK, but I got started back in the mid ’70s when things were much different that they are today.
I have 5 kids. 1 disabled so college wasn’t an issue. The other 4 I told “I’ll get you through high school, the rest is up to you, but I’m not co-signing for any debt, period.” They all enlisted in the military after high school and are in various stages of getting themselves through college using VA benefits.
I put a sort of related post on the member feed which you may find to be of interest.
http://ricochet.com/a-2nd-big-10-school-for-illinois/
It’s not just film. There’s essentially one non-academic purpose to taking gender studies/ fat studies/ Asian studies etc., and that’s to harness grievances and form bonds with identity groups. As many on the right say, we don’t do that. Not studying the art, though, means that not only can we not go on the offense (Roger Simon had a great article up today or yesterday on Democrats being the real racist, but the idea isn’t going to stick), but we’re not much good at defense, either. We look down on social media as an academic subject, and are then surprised when we get our behinds handed to us on that (and not just our political campaigns, but our think tanks and magazines).
James of England
We look down on social media as an academic subject, and are then surprised when we get our behinds handed to us on that (and not just our political campaigns, but our think tanks and magazines).
Say Amen, somebody…..