Rioter’s Actions Are Worth Pointing Out

 

We’ve had some interesting discussions of various aspects of the Rittenhouse case, mostly focused on his actions. Those who were shot had provoked a confrontation with an armed man who protected himself. I see no provocation on Rittenhouse’s part and, had they not attacked him, they’d be alive. Thier own actions caused them harm.

Our basic rules have to be pretty straightforward. You have a right to defend yourself from serious bodily harm or death by whatever means keep you breathing, provided a reasonable person would agree that your life is in danger. Obviously, there’s a spectrum of threat. Can’t just shoot someone for giving you the stink eye. So what happened?

Evidently, without provocation, the rioting crowd bagan shouting at Rittenhouse, threatening him verbally and chasing him down the street.Threat to his life? Almost certainly. He’s seriously outnumbered and the crowd is hostile. Even in the course of a really good riot, have you ever chased someone down the street with a chain or skateboard or gun when that person had done nothing to you?

Then Rittenhouse got hit in the head with a skateboard. An aoutopsy would describe that as a blunt instrument. Could that have killed him? Is that a threat to his life? Check. When was the last time you chased somebody down a street and hit him in the head with a blunt instrument, when that person had done nothing to you?

Then he got kicked in the head while he was sitting on street as the hostile crowd approched him. Could that have killed him? Sure, and there was more where that came from. Legitimate threat to his life? No doubt. When was the last time you kicked somebody in the head while he was sitting on the ground, and again that person had done nothing to you?

Then the gun gets pointed at him from three feet away. Yeah, that’s a legitimate threat to your life. When was the last time you pointed a handgun at someone who’d done you no harm?

Rittenhouse is on trial for ending those threats. There’s video of it. (With all due respect to the eminently sensible Yeti, there was no video of the Trayvon Martin episode.) The rioters were the bad guys in this picture. Very bad. It doesn’t matter what anybody’s criminal record was, doesn’t matter what Rittenhouse’s grades were, doesn’t matter whether he crossed a state line doesn’t matter what anybody’s color is. The out-of-control aggression of the rioters got them killed, and those facts are not in dispute.

And yet that guy got grilled like he was a trained policeman with the prosecutor literally trying to make his case in a second by second video analysis. I’ll tell you what Rittenhouse’s state of mind was when he pulled the trigger: “Holy moley, my head hurts and they’re coming in for more.”

That’s why this case should never have been brought. Not everything needs to be litigated. Just look at the video.

This case is a Second Amendment issue. The prosecutors want to chill self defense by putting you through hell for defending yourself.

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  1. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    When I heard the jury is majority women, my heart sank. The likelihood of acquittal dropped precipitously at that point. It’ll either be conviction or a hung jury.

    You probably know better than I…but I wonder whether Kyle’s obvious youth will help? Compared to the “victims” he doesn’t look threatening at all.

    Anybody know the economic make up of the jury?  Poor people are more likely to relate to his victims because of the criminal connections in their own family.

    • #31
  2. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    From wisconsinrightnow.com on social media:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Concealing evidence? Prosecutorial misconduct?

    Whichever, Jessica looks great and I hope she stays safe!

    • #32
  3. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    From wisconsinrightnow.com on social media:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Concealing evidence? Prosecutorial misconduct?

    Whichever, Jessica looks great and I hope she stays safe!

    She will most likely hook up with the Guard for some mischief 

    • #33
  4. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    They should worry. I would have refused to be on this jury because of it.

    This is why “hung jury” is a very good bet.

    • #34
  5. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    • #35
  6. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    Do they have alternates to replace them?

    • #36
  7. 9thDistrictNeighbor Member
    9thDistrictNeighbor
    @9thDistrictNeighbor

    The Dan O’Donnell Show” can now report exclusively that Jump Kick Man is a 40-year-old Black male from Kenosha with an extensive criminal record who was at the time of the Rittenhouse shootings on probation following a conviction for domestic violence battery. 

    He has a rap sheet several miles long.  The rest of the story here.

    • #37
  8. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    If that is true.  Maybe a prosecutor trying for a do over.

    • #38
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    If that is true. Maybe a prosecutor trying for a do over.

    Maybe the judge will go with the mistrial with prejudice, or something.  That way only the judge’s house gets burned.

    • #39
  10. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    It would be grounds for a mistrial, but we should keep in mind that it may not be corroborated.  

    • #40
  11. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    It would be grounds for a mistrial, but we should keep in mind that it may not be corroborated.

    Yes, most likely the jurors themselves have to inform the judge of a problem.

    • #41
  12. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Paul Stinchfield (View Comment):

    He wrote: “Two jurors holding decision up, outright citing backlash, per US Marshal in Kenosha

    Should these jurors be removed for this?

    It would be grounds for a mistrial, but we should keep in mind that it may not be corroborated.

    Yes, most likely the jurors themselves have to inform the judge of a problem.

    But if the two jurors are holding up an acquittal for the reported reasons it sounds like the mistrial, with prejudice would be the correct action

    • #42
  13. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    Allegedly per a Marshall. Ah I see that above.

    Hmmm. But how would a US Marshall have this info? Are they acting as a bailiff for some reason   in a state court?  Maybe it’s something like that, but I’m skeptical.

    • #43
  14. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    Allegedly per a Marshall. Ah I see that above.

    Hmmm. But how would a US Marshall have this info? Are they acting as a bailiff for some reason in a state court? Maybe it’s something like that, but I’m skeptical.

    This situation would not be tolerated for very long, would it? In other words, once it has been discussed long enough to know the holdouts won’t change, it goes directly to the judge, right? I mean maybe the judge already has it under consideration.

    • #44
  15. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    Allegedly per a Marshall. Ah I see that above.

    Hmmm. But how would a US Marshall have this info? Are they acting as a bailiff for some reason in a state court? Maybe it’s something like that, but I’m skeptical.

    This situation would not be tolerated for very long, would it? In other words, once it has been discussed long enough to know the holdouts won’t change, it goes directly to the judge, right? I mean maybe the judge already has it under consideration.

    Yes, the jury typically reports to the judge that they are hung. The judge usually then gives them a pep talk, and tells them something like -“No one on earth knows this case better than you do, and there’s no reason to think the next jury will know any more, so go and deliberate again and see if you can get somewhere.” 

    If there is some hang up like the one described, the court would have to address that on the record, I would think, and entertain arguments or at least comments from the parties on how to proceed. 

    • #45
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    Allegedly per a Marshall. Ah I see that above.

    Hmmm. But how would a US Marshall have this info? Are they acting as a bailiff for some reason in a state court? Maybe it’s something like that, but I’m skeptical.

    Does a marshal have to be federal?

    • #46
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    It looks to me like the jury is trying for some kind of compromise verdict or will be hung. Still, I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where he’s convicted or acquitted on one murder charge and not the other. I’m thinking deadlock.

    Two jurors fearing “ backlash” and doxing reportedly holding up verdict, per Jack Posobiec.

    How on Earth does he know that? They should not be communicating with anyone except the court.

    Allegedly per a Marshall. Ah I see that above.

    Hmmm. But how would a US Marshall have this info? Are they acting as a bailiff for some reason in a state court? Maybe it’s something like that, but I’m skeptical.

    This situation would not be tolerated for very long, would it? In other words, once it has been discussed long enough to know the holdouts won’t change, it goes directly to the judge, right? I mean maybe the judge already has it under consideration.

    Yes, the jury typically reports to the judge that they are hung. The judge usually then gives them a pep talk, and tells them something like -“No one on earth knows this case better than you do, and there’s no reason to think the next jury will know any more, so go and deliberate again and see if you can get somewhere.”

    If there is some hang up like the one described, the court would have to address that on the record, I would think, and entertain arguments or at least comments from the parties on how to proceed.

    It seems likely that, considering how certain events – judge chastising the prosecutor, etc – have been publicly available while hopefully not known by the jury, selecting a replacement jury for a retrial could be effectively impossible.

    • #47
  18. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    When I heard the jury is majority women, my heart sank. The likelihood of acquittal dropped precipitously at that point. It’ll either be conviction or a hung jury.

    You probably know better than I…but I wonder whether Kyle’s obvious youth will help? Compared to the “victims” he doesn’t look threatening at all.

    Per the prosecutor’s closing statements, Kyle “provoked” the attack.  Karen believes that if you don’t resist you won’t be harmed.  Pacifism and “safety” is her default position — see the insistence of removing anything vaguely “dangerous” from playgrounds over the last couple of decades.  No risk.  Masculinity is toxic.  If women ruled the world there would be no war.  Etcetera.

    • #48
  19. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    When I heard the jury is majority women, my heart sank. The likelihood of acquittal dropped precipitously at that point. It’ll either be conviction or a hung jury.

    You probably know better than I…but I wonder whether Kyle’s obvious youth will help? Compared to the “victims” he doesn’t look threatening at all.

    Per the prosecutor’s closing statements, he “provoked” the attack. Karen believes that if you don’t resist you won’t be harmed. Pacifism and “safety” is her default position — see the insistence of removing anything vaguely “dangerous” from playgrounds over the last couple of decades. No risk. Masculinity is toxic. If women ruled the world there would be no war. Etcetera.

     

    • #49
  20. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Does a marshal have to be federal?

    A quick web search found that Connecticut has state marshals: https://www.jud.ct.gov/faq/marshals.htm.  Other than that and fire marshals, marshals seem to be a federal thing.

    Searching for “Wisconsin marshals” mostly found references to US Marshals involved in/commenting on the original Kenosha riots.

    I think it’s a safe bet that this refers to a US Marshal.

    • #50
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Does a marshal have to be federal?

    A quick web search found that Connecticut has state marshals: https://www.jud.ct.gov/faq/marshals.htm. Other than that and fire marshals, marshals seem to be a federal thing.

    Searching for “Wisconsin marshals” mostly found references to US Marshals involved in/commenting on the original Kenosha riots.

    I think it’s a safe bet that this refers to a US Marshal.

    Unless it’s a court bailiff or something, and someone referred to them as a marshal erroneously…  Maybe someone from Connecticut?  :-)

    • #51
  22. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Does a marshal have to be federal?

    A quick web search found that Connecticut has state marshals: https://www.jud.ct.gov/faq/marshals.htm.Other than that and fire marshals, marshals seem to be a federal thing.

    Searching for “Wisconsin marshals” mostly found references to US Marshals involved in/commenting on the original Kenosha riots.

    I think it’s a safe bet that this refers to a US Marshal.

    Unless it’s a court bailiff or something, and someone referred to them as a marshal erroneously… Maybe someone from Connecticut? :-)

    I guess it’s possible, but I remain a skeptic. It would just be really weird for info like that to leak out in the first place from anyone but the judge, and if it’s true for the court to be, apparently, ignoring it.  The way it plays into expectations makes me further skeptical. But I can’t say it’s impossible, of course.

    • #52
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