Men, Women, and Workplaces

 

June 1949. The American Medical Association’s annual convention was held in Atlantic City, filling the run-down seaside town’s parking lots with out-of-state Cadillacs. One of the main events of the weekend was demonstrating a new tool for training doctors, medical color television, a futuristic-seeming replacement for the tiers of ringed seats of the traditional operating room surgical amphitheater. But TV was too poor a teaching substitute until color came along. After an elaborate luncheon was over, a spokesman for the manufacturer, Smith, Kline, and French, strongly suggested that the doctors’ wives leave the hall, as the live images would be very graphic.

To his surprise, most of the ladies stayed and watched, most of them impassively sipping coffee and smoking cigarettes. (I mentioned it was 1949, right?) Someone explained to the SKF man that the women were, or had been nurses, and had seen far worse. “They met their husbands on the job”. In 1949, that was as common a fact of women’s lives as hats, white gloves, and handbags. For women, getting ahead in life generally involved marriage, with the goal of marrying “up”. It had always been the way of the world.

November 1977. A brave new world for men and women, after the overlapping but different ‘50s–‘70s cultural revolutions associated with Playboy, Cosmopolitan, and Ms. magazines, but far from a completely changed one. Xerox Corporation held its worldwide conference for executives in Boca Raton. The last day was Futures Day, when most of the attendees would finally get their first-ever look at the next-generation office technology that the company had been creating since 1973. To them, the Xerox Alto workstation was a TV you could type on, like the personal computers that were just beginning to appear. But Alto came with word processing (a new term) built-in, networking, and a new invention that played to Xerox’s strengths, the laser printer. Attendees were invited to step forward and spend some time using the new equipment.

The men were moderately impressed. “Interesting” was the consensus, but by and large, they weren’t that excited by seeing what a productivity step like this could mean for business. By contrast, their wives, nearly all of them well-to-do or outright wealthy, jumped right in, folded their Chanel tweed jackets, kicked off their high heels, and started typing and formatting, exclaiming to each other what an amazing thing this was. It looked incongruous, even funny as the rich ladies quickly figured the system out.

But it made sense. Almost all of them had been secretaries. That’s how they met their husbands: on the job. For the 1977 wives, many of the furtive office romances that led to matrimony took place in the Mad Men era, 1960-’70, back in that mixed time that fell between Playboy and the phenomenon we’d come to call, simply, the women’s movement. In 1974, New York Magazine did an issue about the world a quarter-century back. The lead article was titled 1949: Feminism’s Nadir.

Only a few years later, now forty years ago (where does the time go?), I encountered that “future office”, even the very same networked computer system, now christened the Xerox Star. A friend of mine, a fledgling lawyer, got me a temp job in a large, busy law firm when another job offer fell through and I needed rent money fast. I was there for a couple of months, first as a file clerk, then as organizer of their rapidly growing stock of magnetic media.

The law firm was a well-oiled machine that ran lean and stacked up the billable hours. Think litigation, not Perry Mason. Except for the three partners, the other two dozen or so lawyers spent their long workdays reading documents, dictating into a microphone, or (more rarely) talking on the telephone.

The product of all this endless, day in and day out, talking and dictating and interviewing and deposing was handed off to a large secretarial pool, pounding away at IBM Selectrics. Only the three partners had their own assigned staff; everyone else competed for resources. And if the firm were an army, the officers were all men, and the enlisted ranks were about 90% women. That was pretty typical in those days.

Not one of the lawyers so much as had a typewriter in his office. There were no computer keyboards on their desktops either—not quite yet. By contrast, by 1981 there had already been generations of college women who’d helped their boyfriends by typing their papers. Wives typed their husbands’ ways through law or medical school. That was perfectly normal in those days. Unless they’d been clerks in the armed forces, few men even knew how to type. Many men prided themselves on it.

The costly Xerox Star system was, so far, only used for editing and formatting the most valuable of their legal documents. Only the top echelon of secretaries, the firm’s uncompromising Bene Gesserit, was permitted to work with it, and the elite corps of young women at its three terminals were accompanied by one full time (male) systems technician who I suspected, even 40 years ago, of merely pretending he was needed.

Five days a week until well after five, the two dozen men with fancy sheepskins on their walls were separately trapped in their surprisingly small and un-fancy offices, although making a lot of money. By contrast, the five dozen or so women were all massed in big, noisy open-form offices, a vast, busy, and very social unit that amounted to a female company-within-a-company. They spent most of their work lives typing, correcting, and editing the work product they got on tape from the lawyers. The rivers of talk led to rivers of printed text, which led to rivers of money, which led to all of our paychecks.

The older ladies frequently showed patience while tacitly helping teach newly hired-but-“green” young male lawyers how to deal with the firm’s assembly-line pace. The women weren’t lawyers, and in that era had rarely expected to be. They expected, deserved, and got, respect for the jobs they did choose. So it was with muted, oddly mixed feelings that they greeted a young woman, fresh from a Florida law school, newly admitted to the California bar. This wasn’t a rarity by 1981, but it was still new to most of the lawyers and secretaries.

If this were a Lifetime made-for-TV movie, the women would have stood up as one, proud and sassy, with a big, smiling round of applause for the new attorney. Sure, a couple of unattractive, clueless men in the office might have tried to get handsy with her, but she’d have effortlessly put them in their place. Gestures of sisterly solidarity would have covered her path like rose petals.

In real life, though, it didn’t work out as simply as that. So far as I could tell (admittedly, a real limitation, but there was little to no privacy there), the men didn’t try to hit on her. She got an office and staff support equal to her male coworkers. A no-nonsense sort, she got right down to business. A brisk, successful transition, by all appearances.

But the stereotype-breaker was: the women didn’t like her and didn’t like working with her. Partly it was her chilly personality. She didn’t go out of her way to relate, and she clearly didn’t see herself as being much like the other women. In effect, she saw herself as needing to prove herself as if she were an officer among enlisted ranks; they saw her as a stuck-up snob who thought she was better than the rest of them. Neither was entirely wrong. Despite what the era’s slogans said, Sisterhood isn’t always powerful.

There was another, entirely human and understandable element in the secretaries’ reactions that did track with female dissatisfaction with the workplace, a mixture of only semi-admitted envy and an undercurrent of self-blame: here she was, making the big bucks and giving orders. What did I do wrong?

My temp job lasted four months. The managing partner offered me a full-time gig, which was more than decent of him, but the real job that I’d been holding out for came through. About a year later, out of nowhere, a lawyer sent me an invitation to one of their elite social mixers at the Beverly Hills Country Club, which I was happy to attend.

As the evening drew to a close and I started drifting towards the exit, I fell into the conversational circle of an elegantly dressed woman in her late forties. I’d later learn she was the wife of one of the partners. I was introduced, rather generously, as someone who’d once worked at her husband’s law firm. When I told her I wasn’t a lawyer she perked up. “Oh, thank God!”, she said, laughing. She asked what sort of things I’d seen in my time there and I told her.

I wasn’t surprised that she was conservative; in Beverly Hills, it was not nearly as rare then as it would be now. The boards of directors of L.A.’s other country clubs went after studio chiefs as marquee names; BHCC went after Buzz Aldrin. One of the other guests lit her cigarette while the valet ran to fetch her car. She turned her attention back towards me. “I know you’ve heard lots of bad things about the Fifties, but for me, it was a wonderful time in my life. I liked being an office girl”. She looked amused at my (no doubt) doubting expression.

“Oh, I knew I was luckier than most. There were some drawbacks once in a while. But I met a fine man and married him. Women today don’t get a full picture of back then”.

That old quote came to mind: “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there”. Its lessons are rarely simple or one-sided. She was talking about her life twenty-five years earlier. It’s been forty years since this conversation took place.

She sighed, stubbed out the cigarette, and donned her fur coat. Blackgama, the best of its time. The valet re-appeared with the car. She smiled and nodded goodbye. The big black Cadillac swallowed her up and she vanished down Wilshire Boulevard.

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  1. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Also, I think men should be able to be relied upon to show basic respect and self-control in a professional environment; they’re not children, they can very well see a woman in something that highlights her legs or eyes and keep from blurting out every fantasy in their heads. If women can watch a man roll up his shirtsleeves or unbutton a bit of his work shirt and keep from “responding”, men can do just the same.

    I like this view. This works.

    But it ignores how different men and women are.

    I take this to mean the natural man and woman. Rational capability enables humans to control their nature.

    Okay, sure. But what are the women supposed to do?

    *maniacal laugh*

    *disappears over horizon*

    I’m not going there.

    • #121
  2. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):
    Style is more or less timeless. Look how elegant the dresses Myrna Loy wore in the Thin Man series still are.

    How about Nell Gwyn’s?

    Not so much.  Of course, that’s just my opinion.

    • #122
  3. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    DaleGustafson (View Comment):
    Try “Abby Cox” on you tube. She has a website about clothes in particular the 18th and 19th century that is very interesting.

    The one thing guaranteed about fashions is that they change. Sometimes things are relatively stable for a handful of decades, but then what was in is out and what’s in is a bit mad-seeming for awhile.

    I’d certainly rather be stylish than fashionable.

    A lot of times, the fashions do have practical purposes. Wigs were to cover up hair loss due to syphilis, for instance.

    Style is more or less timeless. Look how elegant the dresses Myrna Loy wore in the Thin Man series still are.

    Every week Ace of Spades shows classic dresses (gowns usually) from decades past.  They all are quite as beautiful and the great majority are as in-style today as they were then.

    • #123
  4. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):
    (Also, let’s be real; a non-trivial number of the men who say that are going almost exclusively after women way outside of their league. It’s not some particular cruelty of the feminine sex to say, ‘if I’m gainfully employed, educated, and put time into my physical health and outward appearance, and you do none of those four things, but sidle up to me to grope or act like G-d’s gift to womankind, this isn’t going to end how you want.’)

    I don’t disagree. But I have known plenty of beautiful, kind, intelligent women who chose real duds. Also, sometimes friendship leads into romance but other times “the friend zone” kills all interest — she’s not going to consider dating a “brother” (though maybe a “brutha”). Fast or slow, flattered or challenged, honored or thrilled — there are no universal rules to romance. 

    Except perhaps that the smoking hot gal is always worth a gamble. 

    • #124
  5. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    I don’t disagree. But I have known plenty of beautiful, kind, intelligent women who chose real duds.

    From what I’ve seen, that’s usually either because they think that means they will be in charge, or because they think they can somehow turn the dud into a non-dud.  Either way it seems they mostly end up with not much.

    • #125
  6. She Member
    She
    @She

    Arahant (View Comment):

    If we’re picking on redheads, we ought to invite @ she.

    Yes.  Those prior comments (and those who made them) have been duly noted and filed.

    Please do not make me post the cheesecake shot.

    • #126
  7. She Member
    She
    @She

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Except perhaps that the smoking hot gal is always worth a gamble. 

    Really?  I haven’t found that to be the case at all….

    • #127
  8. She Member
    She
    @She

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):
    (Also, let’s be real; a non-trivial number of the men who say that are going almost exclusively after women way outside of their league. It’s not some particular cruelty of the feminine sex to say, ‘if I’m gainfully employed, educated, and put time into my physical health and outward appearance, and you do none of those four things, but sidle up to me to grope or act like G-d’s gift to womankind, this isn’t going to end how you want.’)

    Marry me, KirkianWanderer!!  (Kidding.  Riffing on a Boss Mongo comment from several years ago that made me laugh at the time.  I was still a moderator, and had sternly rebuked a member who was being a royal pain in the patoot on a particular thread.  I guess Boss liked the tenor of my remarks.  His rejoinder started in that vein, and then turned into a reverie in which he recalled at the end that–darn it–he was already married.)

    It still makes me laugh when I think about it.

    • #128
  9. Captain French Moderator
    Captain French
    @AlFrench

    She (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    If we’re picking on redheads, we ought to invite @ she.

    Yes. Those prior comments (and those who made them) have been duly noted and filed.

    Please do not make me post the cheesecake shot.

    You’ve posted it before. We all already have it in our photo files. 

    • #129
  10. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Captain French (View Comment):

    She (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    If we’re picking on redheads, we ought to invite @ she.

    Yes. Those prior comments (and those who made them) have been duly noted and filed.

    Please do not make me post the cheesecake shot.

    You’ve posted it before. We all already have it in our photo files.

    No we don’t.

    • #130
  11. Aaron Miller Inactive
    Aaron Miller
    @AaronMiller

    She (View Comment):

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):
    Except perhaps that the smoking hot gal is always worth a gamble.

    Really? I haven’t found that to be the case at all….

    I kid. 

    Sort of. Like a woman knows chocolate isn’t worth eating… and eats it anyway. Wisdom is no fun.

    • #131
  12. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What do women want?

    Our sex is integral to our identity and how we relate to others. Men hunt. Women cook. Men build cabins. Women measure for draperies. Men open doors. Women walk through.

    The oldest recorded use of facial make-up (that I know of) was written ostensibly about 5,000 years ago. The record only says that it was used by women, not men.

    It’s easy to say that girls are nurtured into desiring to look pretty, but that is just as likely because their mothers themselves want to look attractive, and in turn want their daughters to look pretty. And women wear frilly dresses that accentuate their curves and the flow of their movement.

    Applying make-up to the face is the only thing that is done for appearance’s sake (that I can think of) that the one who wears it can’t see it, can’t see her own appearance, can’t directly benefit from it herself. Make-up was worn before the advent of glass mirrors, when one could only see oneself in bowl of still water or a shiny piece of bronze flattened and polished for the purpose. If wearing make-up goes back 5,000 years (and I can’t see why it wouldn’t) then make-up was applied not for the wearer’s pleasure, but for the pleasure of others, and presumably for the benefit of being admired by the wearer – but not for the pleasure of the wearer herself. So why did they wear it, except to be viewed as attractive by others?

    This seemed intuitive to me from my earliest years. Girls and women wanted to look pretty. Boys and men wanted to blow things up (to use Henry R’s fun formulation).

    It’s odd now that women don’t want to be complimented on their looks anymore. But is it really so?

    Make-up and skin care are pretty intertwined; women are often using make-up (especially medicated make-up) to cover up flaws which aren’t just considered unsightly, but are physically painful. I’m not saying that the lion’s share of the equation isn’t on outside enjoyment, but it’s not 100% the case.

    Also, some women enjoy make-up for themselves because they see it as a chance to be artistic, and experiment with different colors and textures and shapes, as an expression of their creativity and individual style. Or simply find it a cathartic part of a morning routine.

    It is all designed to make the woman more attractive.

    Yeah, I feel much more attractive without skin cancer. And split lips.

    • #132
  13. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Captain French (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What do women want?

    Our sex is integral to our identity and how we relate to others. Men hunt. Women cook. Men build cabins. Women measure for draperies. Men open doors. Women walk through.

    The oldest recorded use of facial make-up (that I know of) was written ostensibly about 5,000 years ago. The record only says that it was used by women, not men.

    It’s easy to say that girls are nurtured into desiring to look pretty, but that is just as likely because their mothers themselves want to look attractive, and in turn want their daughters to look pretty. And women wear frilly dresses that accentuate their curves and the flow of their movement.

    Applying make-up to the face is the only thing that is done for appearance’s sake (that I can think of) that the one who wears it can’t see it, can’t see her own appearance, can’t directly benefit from it herself. Make-up was worn before the advent of glass mirrors, when one could only see oneself in bowl of still water or a shiny piece of bronze flattened and polished for the purpose. If wearing make-up goes back 5,000 years (and I can’t see why it wouldn’t) then make-up was applied not for the wearer’s pleasure, but for the pleasure of others, and presumably for the benefit of being admired by the wearer – but not for the pleasure of the wearer herself. So why did they wear it, except to be viewed as attractive by others?

    Make-up and skin care are pretty intertwined; women are often using make-up (especially medicated make-up) to cover up flaws which aren’t just considered unsightly, but are physically painful. I’m not saying that the lion’s share of the equation isn’t on outside enjoyment, but it’s not 100% the case.

    Also, some women enjoy make-up for themselves because they see it as a chance to be artistic, and experiment with different colors and textures and shapes, as an expression of their creativity and individual style. Or simply find it a cathartic part of a morning routine.

    I don’t think that skin care is why women wear make-up, though. If anything it tends to create skin problems.

    Depends on the specific application and product, really. There are a lot of foundations, for example, especially from Korea, that have high SPF to protect the skin from sun damage without layering on all of the pore clogging heaviness of traditional sun screen. Medicated tinted lip balms operate on the same principle.

    Like you need SPF in London. 😉

    When you clock in at the shade of “ghost covered in flour”, you would be surprised. (It’s 90 and sunny this week, my personal hell).

    • #133
  14. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What do women want?

    Our sex is integral to our identity and how we relate to others. Men hunt. Women cook. Men build cabins. Women measure for draperies. Men open doors. Women walk through.

    The oldest recorded use of facial make-up (that I know of) was written ostensibly about 5,000 years ago. The record only says that it was used by women, not men.

    It’s easy to say that girls are nurtured into desiring to look pretty, but that is just as likely because their mothers themselves want to look attractive, and in turn want their daughters to look pretty. And women wear frilly dresses that accentuate their curves and the flow of their movement.

    Applying make-up to the face is the only thing that is done for appearance’s sake (that I can think of) that the one who wears it can’t see it, can’t see her own appearance, can’t directly benefit from it herself. Make-up was worn before the advent of glass mirrors, when one could only see oneself in bowl of still water or a shiny piece of bronze flattened and polished for the purpose. If wearing make-up goes back 5,000 years (and I can’t see why it wouldn’t) then make-up was applied not for the wearer’s pleasure, but for the pleasure of others, and presumably for the benefit of being admired by the wearer – but not for the pleasure of the wearer herself. So why did they wear it, except to be viewed as attractive by others?

    This seemed intuitive to me from my earliest years. Girls and women wanted to look pretty. Boys and men wanted to blow things up (to use Henry R’s fun formulation).

    It’s odd now that women don’t want to be complimented on their looks anymore. But is it really so?

    Make-up and skin care are pretty intertwined; women are often using make-up (especially medicated make-up) to cover up flaws which aren’t just considered unsightly, but are physically painful. I’m not saying that the lion’s share of the equation isn’t on outside enjoyment, but it’s not 100% the case.

    Also, some women enjoy make-up for themselves because they see it as a chance to be artistic, and experiment with different colors and textures and shapes, as an expression of their creativity and individual style. Or simply find it a cathartic part of a morning routine.

    It is all designed to make the woman more attractive.

    Yeah, I feel much more attractive without skin cancer. And split lips.

    Oddly enough, I do too.

    • #134
  15. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Also, I think men should be able to be relied upon to show basic respect and self-control in a professional environment; they’re not children, they can very well see a woman in something that highlights her legs or eyes and keep from blurting out every fantasy in their heads. If women can watch a man roll up his shirtsleeves or unbutton a bit of his work shirt and keep from “responding”, men can do just the same.

    I like this view. This works.

    But it ignores how different men and women are.

    I take this to mean the natural man and woman. Rational capability enables humans to control their nature.

    Okay, sure. But what are the women supposed to do?

    *maniacal laugh*

    *disappears over horizon*

    • #135
  16. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Gary McVey: That was perfectly normal in those days. Unless they’d been clerks in the armed forces, few men even knew how to type. Many men prided themselves on it.

    This seems a bit ambiguous. I took it to mean that many men prided themselves on NOT knowing how to type, but following the part about some men being clerks in the armed forces I can’t be sure.

    @garymcvey you are going to get a bundle of material from this post. I learned to type at Fort Bragg. I was a cannoneer (gun bunny?) in a STRAC (Strategic Army Corps) 155mm Artillery Battalion. I think the Sergeant Major checked some test scores, among other things, and needing a battalion clerk, sent me to typing school. I did one KP and one guard duty so I would know what each was and that was it, easy duty if you don’t mind being under the watchful eyes of a colonel, a major, a captain and the Sergeant Major.

    Now, let’s go back to 1937 when my Mom and Dad were married. There was a resurgence of the long-standing depression. My maternal grandfather was employed throughout the depression at $15 a week. My father had served in the Navy as a Pharmacist Mate but was out. My mother was an expert stenographer/typist at 120 wpm at both typing and shorthand and had employment that paid well. My father could not find a job in the private sector so he re-enlisted in the Navy and then the War so he served past 1945. My understanding of what led to their separation and divorce during the war was his inability and unwillingness to accept that she had always been able to earn more than he could. There may have been some other factors but his sister told me this was big.

     

    • #136
  17. KirkianWanderer Inactive
    KirkianWanderer
    @KirkianWanderer

    Aaron Miller (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):
    (Also, let’s be real; a non-trivial number of the men who say that are going almost exclusively after women way outside of their league. It’s not some particular cruelty of the feminine sex to say, ‘if I’m gainfully employed, educated, and put time into my physical health and outward appearance, and you do none of those four things, but sidle up to me to grope or act like G-d’s gift to womankind, this isn’t going to end how you want.’)

    I don’t disagree. But I have known plenty of beautiful, kind, intelligent women who chose real duds. Also, sometimes friendship leads into romance but other times “the friend zone” kills all interest — she’s not going to consider dating a “brother” (though maybe a “brutha”). Fast or slow, flattered or challenged, honored or thrilled — there are no universal rules to romance.

    Except perhaps that the smoking hot gal is always worth a gamble.

    Yep. 

    I’m not a big fan of the “the friend zone” terminology. I totally get that men don’t like being rejected, but I don’t think they always realize that women are losing in this too. We thought we had a friend/brother, and now what? Was it just a long term ruse to get laid, or did he actually value us platonically? 

    • #137
  18. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    My understanding of what led to their separation and divorce during the war was his inability and unwillingness to accept that she had always been able to earn more than he could. There may have been some other factors but his sister told me this was big.

    Hypergamy works both ways.

    • #138
  19. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Sure, we want her to be pretty…don’t you?” Sometimes, when the slightest thing today can be labeled sexist, it’s useful to be reminded that there were actual reasons why women pushed back.

    Eastern discriminated against redheads?

    • #139
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    What do women want?

    Our sex is integral to our identity and how we relate to others. Men hunt. Women cook. Men build cabins. Women measure for draperies. Men open doors. Women walk through.

    The oldest recorded use of facial make-up (that I know of) was written ostensibly about 5,000 years ago. The record only says that it was used by women, not men.

    It’s easy to say that girls are nurtured into desiring to look pretty, but that is just as likely because their mothers themselves want to look attractive, and in turn want their daughters to look pretty. And women wear frilly dresses that accentuate their curves and the flow of their movement.

    Applying make-up to the face is the only thing that is done for appearance’s sake (that I can think of) that the one who wears it can’t see it, can’t see her own appearance, can’t directly benefit from it herself. Make-up was worn before the advent of glass mirrors, when one could only see oneself in bowl of still water or a shiny piece of bronze flattened and polished for the purpose. If wearing make-up goes back 5,000 years (and I can’t see why it wouldn’t) then make-up was applied not for the wearer’s pleasure, but for the pleasure of others, and presumably for the benefit of being admired by the wearer – but not for the pleasure of the wearer herself. So why did they wear it, except to be viewed as attractive by others?

    This seemed intuitive to me from my earliest years. Girls and women wanted to look pretty. Boys and men wanted to blow things up (to use Henry R’s fun formulation).

    It’s odd now that women don’t want to be complimented on their looks anymore. But is it really so?

    Make-up and skin care are pretty intertwined; women are often using make-up (especially medicated make-up) to cover up flaws which aren’t just considered unsightly, but are physically painful. I’m not saying that the lion’s share of the equation isn’t on outside enjoyment, but it’s not 100% the case.

    Also, some women enjoy make-up for themselves because they see it as a chance to be artistic, and experiment with different colors and textures and shapes, as an expression of their creativity and individual style. Or simply find it a cathartic part of a morning routine.

    It is all designed to make the woman more attractive.

    Yeah, I feel much more attractive without skin cancer. And split lips.

    I respectfully disagree.  There are SPF lotions and lip balms that go on invisibly.  Make-up is only about appearance, and always has been.  And it’s not about how one appears to oneself but how one appears to others.

    • #140
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    Now, let’s go back to 1937 when my Mom and Dad were married. There was a resurgence of the long-standing depression. My maternal grandfather was employed throughout the depression at $15 a week. My father had served in the Navy as a Pharmacist Mate but was out. My mother was an expert stenographer/typist at 120 wpm at both typing and shorthand and had employment that paid well. My father could not find a job in the private sector so he re-enlisted in the Navy and then the War so he served past 1945. My understanding of what led to their separation and divorce during the war was his inability and unwillingness to accept that she had always been able to earn more than he could. There may have been some other factors but his sister told me this was big.

    Arguably not his fault that the depression and war interfered with his ability to earn better, but that’s how life goes sometimes.

    • #141
  22. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Percival (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Sure, we want her to be pretty…don’t you?” Sometimes, when the slightest thing today can be labeled sexist, it’s useful to be reminded that there were actual reasons why women pushed back.

    Eastern discriminated against redheads?

    “We really move our tails for you.”

    • #142
  23. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    Men, generally, do not; they wear pants (generally) or a cloth wrapped into baggy shorts.

    Barbarians. They probably wear beards, too.

    Not all of them that I recall. Very long handle-bar mustaches, though.

    Real men wear togas and are clean shaven.

    Wait, late-breaking news from some fellows named Louis:

    “Armor is how real men dress,” Louis XIII:

    Portrait of Louis XIII in his thirty-fourth year

    “No, no, Papa, high heeled shoes for use with stirrups and show the manly legs as the sexiest part through tight hosiery and very short pants,” Louis XIV:

    Portrait of Louis XIV aged 63

    What? You’re going to argue with guys named Bourbon about what’s manly?

    • #143
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Percival (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Sure, we want her to be pretty…don’t you?” Sometimes, when the slightest thing today can be labeled sexist, it’s useful to be reminded that there were actual reasons why women pushed back.

    Eastern discriminated against redheads?

    I didn’t see that before, but it sure seems like it.

    • #144
  25. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Gary McVey: That old quote came to mind: “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there”.

    Very true.

    Easier to just cancel it. Then repeat it.

    As farce?

    To the people who both know history and aren’t affected by the disasters.

    • #145
  26. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Also, I think men should be able to be relied upon to show basic respect and self-control in a professional environment; they’re not children, they can very well see a woman in something that highlights her legs or eyes and keep from blurting out every fantasy in their heads. If women can watch a man roll up his shirtsleeves or unbutton a bit of his work shirt and keep from “responding”, men can do just the same.

    I like this view. This works.

    But it ignores how different men and women are.

    I take this to mean the natural man and woman. Rational capability enables humans to control their nature.

    But they are different, and it isn’t right to “Criminalize” the normal behavior of men but not pay equal attention to the normal behavior of women.

    One thing worth understanding with regard to responses to enhancing the attractiveness of women is that the motivations for the women may be several and diverse but for the men it is customarily singular, so, yes, they are different, but men tend more toward associated action and sometimes this leads to problems.

    • #146
  27. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Sure, we want her to be pretty…don’t you?” Sometimes, when the slightest thing today can be labeled sexist, it’s useful to be reminded that there were actual reasons why women pushed back.

    Eastern discriminated against redheads?

    I didn’t see that before, but it sure seems like it.

    Probably with good reason.

    • #147
  28. Some Call Me ...Tim Coolidge
    Some Call Me ...Tim
    @SomeCallMeTim

    She (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    If we’re picking on redheads, we ought to invite @ she.

    Yes. Those prior comments (and those who made them) have been duly noted and filed.

    Please do not make me post the cheesecake shot.

    That is a beautiful mane of luxurious hair.  I must admit, though, and please do not be hurt, that, at first glance, I thought it was  a picture of Cousin It.

    • #148
  29. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Percival (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    “Sure, we want her to be pretty…don’t you?” Sometimes, when the slightest thing today can be labeled sexist, it’s useful to be reminded that there were actual reasons why women pushed back.

    Eastern discriminated against redheads?

    They turned down Ali McGraw?

    • #149
  30. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    KirkianWanderer (View Comment):

    Also, I think men should be able to be relied upon to show basic respect and self-control in a professional environment; they’re not children, they can very well see a woman in something that highlights her legs or eyes and keep from blurting out every fantasy in their heads. If women can watch a man roll up his shirtsleeves or unbutton a bit of his work shirt and keep from “responding”, men can do just the same.

    I like this view. This works.

    But it ignores how different men and women are.

    I take this to mean the natural man and woman. Rational capability enables humans to control their nature.

    But they are different, and it isn’t right to “Criminalize” the normal behavior of men but not pay equal attention to the normal behavior of women.

    One thing worth understanding with regard to responses to enhancing the attractiveness of women is that the motivations for the women may be several and diverse but for the men it is customarily singular, so, yes, they are different, but men tend more toward associated action and sometimes this leads to problems.

    Not quite what I meant, but maybe that too.

    I’m thinking more of, if men are to be automatically fired – or “re-educated” or whatever – for “hitting on women in the workplace” which can be seen as typical male behavior, why don’t women face a similar consequence not for “hitting on men in the workplace” (or hitting on other women, maybe) which is not after all seen as typical female behavior, but for what might actually be considered typical female behavior which can be just as detrimental to the work environment, such as… I dunno…  gossiping?

    Sure, it’s not “equal,” but that’s my point:  men and women aren’t the same!

    • #150
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