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From the Editors’ Desk: Video of Oregon Refuge Shooting
The FBI released two videos of the incident: the edited, eight-minute version below — which includes the death of of Robert LaVoy Finicum around the 6’00” mark — as well as the unedited, 26-minute video of the same.
From the WSJ‘s coverage:
Published in GeneralLaw-enforcement officials Thursday night defended their actions in the death of Robert LaVoy Finicum, one of the protesters who had occupied a wildlife refuge, releasing a video showing Mr. Finicum being shot when he appeared to reach toward a gun in his jacket.
“We did everything we could to bring this situation to a peaceful resolution,” said Greg Bretzing, special agent in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Portland Division in Oregon. “It was a reckless action that resulted in the consequences you see here today.”
[…]The video, taken from FBI aircraft, shows Mr. Finicum’s white truck race away from state troopers after being stopped on the road for more than three minutes. After the car speeds away, it swerves off the road, nearly hitting an FBI agent and plowing into a snowbank.
Mr. Finicum then gets out of the car, and walks into a snow-covered roadside forest. The video then appears to show him hold up his hands, then appear to reach for his side before he is shot by a state trooper.
Mr. Bretzing said Mr. Finicum appeared to be reaching into his jacket pocket, where investigators found a 9mm pistol.
Do we yet know if the Sheriff, whose office they were travelling to for a scheduled meeting, was in contact with the FBI?
They looked pretty quick on the tigger to me. It is reported there was a gun in the pocket. What else was there? His ID?
I wish there were sound. What if he was being asked for his ID? On the other hand, what if he was saying, “I’m going to kill you bastards.” Completely different.
Taking his hands down was pretty stupid unless it was on a command.
Another unnecessary shooting by our Feds. Illegals get flown in, yet a citizen trying to defend the Constitution can’t be ignored.
You’re right. The video doesn’t prove anything either way because of the lack of audio.
Here’s what I know for a fact: I can watch the 26 minute video (hell, the 8 minute video!) and it makes me an expert in law enforcement, and I can tell you exactly how those officers should have acted. Because I am that much of a bad muchacho!
It was pretty clear that Finicum went from holding his hands up to reaching across his body with his right hand in what is a typical cross draw move. If I were in the position of the police officers in that situation, I believe I would have fired as well.
If Finicum was attempting to retrieve an ID as was suggested above, he should have done so after telling the police that was what he was doing, and he should have used his left hand. The cross draw movement was obvious to anyone who has seen it executed and represented a reasonable threat to the arresting officers. It was a very dumb move.
No way to know, but circumstantial evidence suggests not. The John Day sheriff is a well known local 2A supporter, among other things. The upcoming meeting there was well-publicized, and there’s only one practical route from Burns north to John Day in the winter. Blocking US 395 was not exactly rocket science.
It makes me suspect that this was “suicide by cop”. I do recall a quote from one of the militia members indicating that he would prefer death as opposed to prison, as to whether that was Finicum though I cannot say.
Looks like a justifiable shooting to me.
Finicum’s actions were outrageous. He was stopped by law enforcement, and instead of doing what one is supposed to do — pulling off to the side, shutting down the car, and yielding to lawful authorities — he sits in his truck for several minutes, straddling the middle line of the road, apparently with the vehicle running.
Then he flees from a lawful stop and tries to run a roadblock, almost hitting an officer with his vehicle.
Then he gets out of the car and still refuses to yield, but instead acts in a very threatening manner.
It would be very easy for him to have avoided being shot. He should have stopped in a proper location, turned off his engine, waited, then stepped out of the truck slowly, kneeled, and put his hands behind his head. He would undoubtedly have been taken into custody peacefully.
There is no reason for him to take out his ID, or a cell phone, or anything else. The officers would have access to all of that after taking him into custody.
On this video, I see an armed, violent criminal being given ample chance to surrender, and instead continuing to act belligerently, until he was justifiably killed by an officer in self defense.
I would say it’s not incumbent upon a citizen to do that — or know that you should — if he or she’s been pulled over for failing to yield properly while making a left turn.
But if you’ve been announcing you’ll die before being arrested after doing something both illegal and very likely to get you arrested — in public, every day, for weeks — it seems the responsibility not to alarm the police unduly is on the citizen.
Roberto:
It makes me suspect that this was “suicide by cop”. I do recall a quote from one of the militia members indicating that he would prefer death as opposed to prison, as to whether that was Finicum though I cannot say.
Th,
I agree with you that there is still doubt. I want to remind everyone that after three separate forensic investigations with 4 eyewitnesses in broad daylight that corroborated Officer Wilson’s story the Attorney General of the United States continued to instigate doubt and insinuate wrongdoing in the Michael Brown shooting.
I think the video can be enlarged and enhanced. I’d like to hear what the officers have to say about what verbal commands they were giving him. I think white lives that wear cowboy hats matter too.
Regards,
Jim
Or martyrdom. It almost looks as if he puts his hands up, then changes his mind.? And it also looks as if he deliberately moved far enough from the car to isolate the gunfire on himself before he made his move.
Running a police blockade, nearly striking someone, and quickly reaching for something in your pocket while guns are trained on you seem like an ideal way to be shot. He could have yelled he was reaching for a stuffed animal–they don’t negate his threatening and erratic actions. The police get a second to figure out if he’s lying.
Finicum acted in the way most likely get himself killed. At least he got out of the car so the other passengers wouldn’t be hit in the crossfire.
Reserving final judgement, that was my impression as well.
Claire, I didn’t use the word “incumbent”, you did. As one with a permit to carry a concealed weapon I have had to learn the responsibilities and essential rules having to do with how you act when carrying and you are approached by a police officer. These rules are well known by anyone so licensed. I have no doubt the Finicum was well aware of the effects of his choice to reach toward his left side in that manner. There are very good reasons why you are warned to keep you hands and 10 and 2 O’Clock on your steering wheel when a police officer approaches your car, whether you are armed or not. It is simply stupid to do anything that in anyway can be perceived as threat by a police officer. He doesn’t know you, and he wants to go home to his family at the end of his tour. He is under a good deal of stress, and it is never good idea to feed into that.
Is it incumbent on a citizen to act appropriately? I’d say it only makes good sense.
Good point. I reserve final judgment as well, though evidence that would cause me to reconsider seems unlikely.
For example, I assume that the officers were saying things like “get down, put your hands up,” or the like. If they said “put your hands in your pockets” or “show me your id right now,” it would change my opinion. But this seems improbable.
To me, this is a tragedy on many levels. For much of my life I gave little credence to even the possibility that our system of government could be corrupted into an oppressive regime. Our American values were too strong. Our respect for individuality too core. Individual initiative and critical thinking too operative in our military and law enforcement that illegal orders would not be given or expected to be obeyed. But in my seniority I fear “conformist America” where malign leadership can effectively exert unconstitutional force. So paranoia can be a cautionary strategy rather than mental illness. I don’t want to believe this. I want “the better angels” of our nature to prevail. I don’t want to believe Finicum was wrongfully shot, but I cannot dismiss it out of hand. Whereas in earlier years I would have placed the burden of proof on the militiamen that they were unlawfully treated, I now am looking to the government to explain how their conduct was just. That I could doubt, and that they (the militiamen) be convinced of the malign intent of the government forces they face, represents a sad sad state indeed.
Agreed. Asking for ID is racist. heh heh.
Looks like an unnecessary shooting to me. Had he ACTUALLY drawn his gun then I would think differently but barring that no officer should take it upon himself to fire on a suspect. The police in this country need to make a serious culture change in the way they approach citizens.
Please look carefully at the video. The officer in question ran toward the path of the truck as it left the road. He put himself in jeopardy. One can only speculate as to what the officer was thinking but the video is clear.
I did look carefully. I backed the video up several times to see what happened with that officer.
The officer was sheltering behind the leftmost vehicle in the roadblock (leftmost as shown on the video). Let’s call this the “roadblock vehicle.”
Finicum’s truck was moving toward the left, and it appeared that it might hit the roadblock vehicle. It appeared that the officer jumped to the left on the video (it was the officer’s right), because had Finicum hit the roadblock vehicle, it would have driven the roadblock vehicle into the officer.
The officer sprawled to the ground in the snow to the left of the road (as viewed in the video). Finicum’s truck swerved further to the left, into the snow, and narrowly missed the officer.
I have trouble imagining a contrary interpretation. What did you think? That the officer was intentionally leaving the (questionable) protection of the roadblock vehicle, in order to jump into the path of Finicum’s truck? This seems implausible.
Finicum’s driving actions were both unlawful flight and reckless endangerment, at a minimum.
I didn’t notice that before; that is interesting. Clearly, Finicum was not trying to hit the officer.
Also, according to the NYT:
Unless I’m mistaken, there are bullet holes in the windshield toward the end of the embedded video.
That said, I stand by my earlier comments that Finicum acted recklessly and foolishly by speeding away from the initial stop. And depending on when the shots were fired, that may influence things.
Another clean shoot. At least he’s white so we won’t have to deal with all the racist idiocy. Although, apparently there is still the anti-law enforcement yahoos that think you actually should wait patiently until the thug actually shoots you before you fire on him.
Here’e a hint. When a cop tells you to get on the ground or keep your hands up and you are considered armed and dangerous, you will be shot if you don’t cooperate. That is how it should be taught and that is how it should work.
To follow up: Finicum’s driving at the point of the roadblock is indefensible (absent something really strange like his brakes suddenly failing — the same brakes that worked just fine a few minutes before, when he stopped before fleeing the scene of the earlier traffic stop).
You don’t keep driving at high speed toward a roadblock. You don’t swerve off the road. You stop.
Look, I’m a right-wing white guy. If anything, you’d expect me to be far more sympathetic to Finicum than to Michael Brown. I find myself feeling the same way about both instances — a criminal resisted arrest and threatened law enforcement officers, and was shot in legitimate self defense. As far as my analysis goes, I don’t give a hoot whether the wrongdoer is white, black, or green.
I agree, with the stipulation that if the FBI opened fire when they were a long way off, then an attempt to flee might have been understandable (if reckless and wrong).
That said, I don’t think that’s what happened. It looks more likely to me that the shots were fired as they attempted to drive around the blockade.
Just as a follow-up to my last comment, when you drive away from a traffic stop after illegally seizing federal property and the police know you’re armed, your begging for trouble.
When you realize there’s a roadblock, well… you really should stop. For your own safety, if nothing else.
Were there shots fired at Finicum or at the fleeing vehicle before the fatal shots? There were several unidentified people in the vehicle so firing at it would seem unwarranted.
Marley’s Ghost brought up the point of the shooting before a gun was actually seen. I think that needs to be addressed. Police officers have a right to defend themselves in a confrontation like the one that apparently took place in this situation. When a suspect is stopped and given specific orders, if he takes any action which appears to be a threat to the officer or someone else, it constitutes a justified shooting. The officer does not have to wait for the gun to appear and begin firing.
The suspect in this case made a movement which, as I stated above, was, to anyone familiar with firearms, the prelude to a cross draw. This can be done extremely fast, and any hestation on the part of the arresting officer can lead to his being injured or killed. By making that motion and not following the directions given him, the suspect created the situation that led to his death. This was a totally justified shooting. It is absurd to expect an officer to risk his life in a situation like this by not acting immediately in his own defense.
The State Trooper that fired the shot or shots will be interviewed by State Police homicide detectives. He will not have to write the report the homicide detectives will write the report based upon the transcripts of his interview. It will be a taped interview with time stamps.
The question will be did the Trooper have a reasonable belief that the subject was armed. I can only make an assumption here but I’m sure the Troopers at the roadblock had been briefed on the situation at the wildlife refuge and had access to video of statements made by the militia as well as video of militia that were armed.
The video that we have seen does not contain audio of any commands that were given at the first roadblock or at the second roadblock. I have been on felony stops and you do not let a suspect walk towards you. There is a protocol and you take one person out of the vehicle at a time. Handcuff the first person and then the next, and so on. You don’t let the suspect dictate the response. The Troopers not only have the driver to deal with they have a car full of people that have not been searched.
Regardless, the driver of the vehicle had an advantage because the Troopers are in the position of having to react. He was uncooperative at the first roadblock, uncooperative at the second roadblock and reaching for a pocket is crazy.