Woke America Runs on Ignorance

 

Woke world is a simple, black-and-white, never-never land of good and evil, oppressors and oppressed. But everything is simple until you know something about it. Binary morality can rarely endure the light of knowledge and understanding.

In a recent column, George Will writes about “our lumpen intelligentsia”:

An admirable intelligentsia, inoculated by education against fashions and fads, would make thoughtful distinctions arising from historically informed empathy. It would be society’s ballast against mob mentalities. Instead, much of America’s intelligentsia has become a mob.

Seeking to impose on others the conformity it enforces in its ranks, articulate only in a boilerplate of ritualized cant, today’s lumpen intelligentsia consists of persons for whom a little learning is delightful. They consider themselves educated because they are credentialed, stamped with the approval of institutions of higher education that gave them three things: a smattering of historical information just sufficient to make the past seem depraved; a vocabulary of indignation about the failure of all previous historic actors… to match the virtues of the lumpen intelligentsia; and the belief that America’s grossest injustice is the insufficient obeisance accorded to this intelligentsia.

Today’s cancel culture — erasing history, ending careers — is inflicted by people experiencing an orgy of positive feelings about themselves as they negate others…

The cancellers need just enough learning to know, vaguely, that there was a Lincoln who lived when Americans, sunk in primitivism, thought they were confronted with vexing constitutional constraints and moral ambiguities. The cancel culture depends on not having so much learning that it spoils the statue-toppling fun: Too much learning might immobilize the topplers with doubts about how they would have behaved in the contexts in which the statues’ subjects lived.

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  1. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    Oddly, the fact that religion is necessary and that atheism doesn’t “work” didn’t cause either man to reconsider his atheism. I suppose that that indicates a certain hubris: “I don’t need to believe in ancient myths to live a moral life, but the masses do.”

    It’s not odd at all. Intellectuals are fundamentally different from the masses. Ricochetti are deeply different from regular people. It would be intellectual hubris to pretend that people are similar. Besides, the atheist who knows the value of religion believes in three perfectly compatible things.

    1) People are overwhelmingly religious creatures so they need to have a good religion rather than a bad religion.

    2) Christian religion makes a good and decent Christian society.

    3) Christianity while making a positive society is probably not True.

    It is the the third belief that you quarrel with. Why so?

    First, if a belief doesn’t work, it’s probably wrong.  That logic gets me past atheism.  So, G-d exists, but is Christianity true?  The best evidence I’ve seen for that is the startling change that came over Christ’s disciples after His death.  When He was crucified, they were terrified and went into hiding; Peter even denied knowing Him.  Yet, shortly after His death, they lost their fear, came out of hiding, and openly preached the Gospel.  Some of them died terrible deaths rather than denounce Him.  What accounts for the change?

    • #31
  2. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    No one man, however brilliant or well-informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or institutions of his society, for these are the wisdom of generations after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history.

    But actually, since the 18th Century, these customs and institutions are too often the blunders of yesterday’s revolutionaries which a nine year old could improve on.

    But I like the last one. Would that it could all be on the banks. But that is for the next Age.

    I copied the last one

    Civilization is a stream with banks. The stream is sometimes filled with blood from people killing, stealing, shouting and doing things historians usually record, while on the banks, unnoticed, people build homes, make love, raise children, sing songs, write poetry and even whittle statues. The story of civilization is the story of what happened on the banks.

    • #32
  3. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    Oddly, the fact that religion is necessary and that atheism doesn’t “work” didn’t cause either man to reconsider his atheism. I suppose that that indicates a certain hubris: “I don’t need to believe in ancient myths to live a moral life, but the masses do.”

    It’s not odd at all. Intellectuals are fundamentally different from the masses. Ricochetti are deeply different from regular people. It would be intellectual hubris to pretend that people are similar. Besides, the atheist who knows the value of religion believes in three perfectly compatible things.

    1) People are overwhelmingly religious creatures so they need to have a good religion rather than a bad religion.

    2) Christian religion makes a good and decent Christian society.

    3) Christianity while making a positive society is probably not True.

    It is the the third belief that you quarrel with. Why so?

    God says I tell you ahead of time what I’m going to do so that when I do it, you don’t say dismissively, My idol did that, or I knew that was going to happen.  Christianity is probably the only ‘religion’ founded and proved upon a prophesy made more than 500 years before (and translated into Greek more that 300 years before).  This predicts the Anointed One coming and being cut off in the 483rd year (the 69th sabbath — understood as a seven-year period) of the 490 years after the decree by  to rebuild Jerusalem.  Artaxerxes starts the 490-year (70-week) prophecy in 457 B.C.  Even allowing for changes in calendars and there being no zero-year, and so forth, this still puts the 483 years that passed at around in 33 AD, Jesus came, was cut off as the sacrificial Lamb for the sin of the world and the personal propitiation for each person’s sin, and additionally changed the world for the better.

    This is pretty much proof to me.  This in addition to the phenomenal existence of the Jews — God’s chosen people to this day — through the diaspora and their returning to Jerusalem.  And personally to me, the miracles I’ve experienced in my own life.

    Church without belief is garbage.  Only the certainty of an Absolute Truth with an Absolute Moral Law from a Transcendent Law Giver can convince anyone to be good.  It is this has been reduced to nothing over the last fifty years, and is why we are in such terrible conditions today.

    • #33
  4. Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) Member
    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing)
    @Sisyphus

    I’m going to add in the Apostles who suffered torture and persecution and death for witnessing to the career and resurrection of Christ. Nobody did that for Baal, or Zeus, or Astarte, or Osiris, etcetera. The whole shebang would have collapsed in Jerusalem because everyone would have known it was just a line of guff. Stephen would have to have been deranged. James bin Zebedee is executed as Bishop of Jerusalem and nobody would have followed him in that position. Certainly not James the brother of Jesus, who thought it was all a crock until Jesus rose, and then became Bishop of Jerusalem and was executed for his trouble.

    Read Acts. Before it is too late. No man knows the day, nor the hour.

    • #34
  5. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) (View Comment):

    I’m going to add in the Apostles who suffered torture and persecution and death for witnessing to the career and resurrection of Christ. Nobody did that for Baal, or Zeus, or Astarte, or Osiris, etcetera. The whole shebang would have collapsed in Jerusalem because everyone would have known it was just a line of guff. Stephen would have to have been deranged. James bin Zebedee is executed as Bishop of Jerusalem and nobody would have followed him in that position. Certainly not James the brother of Jesus, who thought it was all a crock until Jesus rose, and then became Bishop of Jerusalem and was executed for his trouble.

    Read Acts. Before it is too late. No man knows the day, nor the hour.

    Yeah.  The martyrdom of all the inner circle for their faith speaks loudly, doesn’t it.  And Paul who rejoiced in prison, because he knew.

    • #35
  6. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Stina (View Comment):

    It is possible that they have chosen these fields to push their own version of right, wrong, and absolute truth because these disciplines can’t ever actually prove them wrong, by their nature. They just provide counter arguments that you can accept or dismiss.

    They avoid math because they can’t manipulate it to get the answer they want to push as the absolute truth.

    Gad Saad makes the exact same points. He said that the reason SJWs go into Economics or Sociology is that they can avoid falsifiability. Economics and sociology can use the some semblance of the scientific method to figure things out but SJWs don’t like that. 

    According to any kind of scientific/empirical thinking ever, you need capitalism to generate enough wealth to not be poor and two-parent nuclear families are the best families for kids. You can’t prove this through conventional science because you can’t reverse age the same kids that were raised by single mothers and have the single mothers marry the fathers and see how it all happened with all the other variables being the same. But you can compare kids of the same race and the same household income in the same location with each other. In fancy terms, this is called regression analysis.

    Since ever study ever (I exaggerate slightly) suggests that kids of any racial or income background do better with two parent families, I conclude that the two parent family is better than the single-mother family. This isn’t exactly the scientific method but it as empirical as you can get. 

    What leftists do in my experience, is that they find the kid from a single mother who graduated valedictorian and is now a successful business entrepreneur. Notice how lefties are currently focusing on the small number of black-Americans killed by cops rather than anything that kills black-Americans in significant numbers. Sociologists and political scientists feel that this is more important so they write a bunch of papers about systemic racism rather than address the elephant of black homicide and black fatherlessness. 

    I believe that this is connected to the sin of pride. 

    • #36
  7. Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) Member
    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing)
    @Sisyphus

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) (View Comment):

    I’m going to add in the Apostles who suffered torture and persecution and death for witnessing to the career and resurrection of Christ. Nobody did that for Baal, or Zeus, or Astarte, or Osiris, etcetera. The whole shebang would have collapsed in Jerusalem because everyone would have known it was just a line of guff. Stephen would have to have been deranged. James bin Zebedee is executed as Bishop of Jerusalem and nobody would have followed him in that position. Certainly not James the brother of Jesus, who thought it was all a crock until Jesus rose, and then became Bishop of Jerusalem and was executed for his trouble.

    Read Acts. Before it is too late. No man knows the day, nor the hour.

    Yeah. The martyrdom of all the inner circle for their faith speaks loudly, doesn’t it. And Paul who rejoiced in prison, because he knew.

    Paul who is shipwrecked at least three times. On top of regular whippings and beatings and stonings and whatnot. Paul who repeatedly prevents prisoners from escaping for the sake of the guards who would be executed if they did. He gets them all singing hymns. And turns the Praetorian Guard into his personal crypto-Christian messenger service. This guy could have lived a fine and raucous life except for that one incident on the way to Damascus. 

    • #37
  8. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) (View Comment):

    The study of history is not proof against the mob when the history taught is curated by a professorship as dedicatedly atheistic as Will himself. The narrative will be woven from select facts to abolish the foundational Judeo-Christian principles that produced what virtue and prosperity civilization has enjoyed. That people are ends and never means, of equal and precious value before the eyes of the almighty Creator of the universe.

    These cancelers and rioters and their enablers in public office are firm in their disbelief in God and the Devil, the stuff of children’s stories they say. They have reserved their recognized authority and their acknowledgment of divinity to themselves, each saying to themselves “I am God.” Saddening the Lord and tickling the Evil One to no end.

    Stalin taught history. Mao taught history. History without the Truth is just one more faithless prostitute working the streets.

    George Will is part of the problem.

    Quite so.  I don’t think a Will-approved history curriculum would be an improvement.

    • #38
  9. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Goldgeller (View Comment):
    The math part: I just can’t really say. I don’t think I can engage in an argument as to why more students aren’t math majors or the like. I don’t want to impute that to you. But I’ll allow there are plenty of illegitimate reasons why students want to downplay the math and the economics! And I’ll say there are probably too many (sub)disciplines that enable that! I haven’t had anyone say to me or heard anyone around me say math is a tool of white supremacy. I’ve seen that stuff on twitter and it drives me insane.

    Maybe because math – such as statistics, etc – if done correctly, proves that many of their “theories” about race etc, are wrong?

    Like, the claim that hundreds or even thousands of “unarmed black teens” are killed by police every year.  The actual NUMBER proves them wrong.  So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    • #39
  10. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    As are reason and logic, apparently.

    • #40
  11. Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) Member
    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing)
    @Sisyphus

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    As are reason and logic, apparently.

    It would only stand to reason.

    • #41
  12. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    As are reason and logic, apparently.

    Logic is a branch of mathematics.

    Reason is closely affiliated, at the very least.

    • #42
  13. Goldgeller Member
    Goldgeller
    @Goldgeller

    Percival (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    As are reason and logic, apparently.

    Logic is a branch of mathematics.

    Reason is closely affiliated, at the very least.

    I have no idea how my comment will be received but I’ll just post it and see what happens. If only to exchange ideas and get feedback:

    I don’t know anyone who talks this way or believes this argument should be normalized, except for people criticizing academia, and I know some very liberal and woke people at all levels of the academic food chain.

    (Yes, with the internet you can find some teacher somewhere who said something dumb, I know there was something going on in a college in South Africa some years ago. It just doesn’t characterize any distribution.)

    • #43
  14. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Goldgeller (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):
    So, they say “math is a tool of white supremacy.”

    As are reason and logic, apparently.

    Logic is a branch of mathematics.

    Reason is closely affiliated, at the very least.

    I have no idea how my comment will be received but I’ll just post it and see what happens. If only to exchange ideas and get feedback:

    I don’t know anyone who talks this way or believes this argument should be normalized, except for people criticizing academia, and I know some very liberal and woke people at all levels of the academic food chain.

    (Yes, with the internet you can find some teacher somewhere who said something dumb, I know there was something going on in a college in South Africa some years ago. It just doesn’t characterize any distribution.)

    I have read that this kind of stuff crops up in university courses, but whether the articles are just “nut picking” far left outliers, I have no idea.  I’m sure it’s not mainstream.  Here are a few examples of it:
    https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/03/why-rationalism-is-irrational/
    https://theunityprocess.com/the-removal-for-logic-the-formula-of-patriarchy/
    https://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/85spp.html

     

    • #44
  15. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    I posted this a week ago, but it fits here: This is another excerpt from George Will’s July 2 column on Cancel Culture:

    Today’s cancel culture — erasing history, ending careers — is inflicted by people experiencing an orgy of positive feelings about themselves as they negate others. This culture is a steamy sauna of self-congratulation: “I, an adjunct professor of gender studies, am superior to U.S. Grant, so there.” Grant promptly freed the slave he received from his father-in-law, and went on to pulverize the slavocracy. Nevertheless . . .

    The cancelers need just enough learning to know, vaguely, that there was a Lincoln who lived when Americans, sunk in primitivism, thought they were confronted with vexing constitutional constraints and moral ambiguities. The cancel culture depends on not having so much learning that it spoils the statue-toppling fun: Too much learning might immobilize the topplers with doubts about how they would have behaved in the contexts in which the statues’ subjects lived.

    …but here’s what Will wrote on June 1:

    In life’s unforgiving arithmetic, we are the sum of our choices. Congressional Republicans have made theirs for more than 1,200 days. We cannot know all the measures necessary to restore the nation’s domestic health and international standing, but we know the first step: Senate Republicans must be routed, as condign punishment for their Vichyite collaboration, leaving the Republican remnant to wonder: Was it sensible to sacrifice dignity, such as it ever was, and to shed principles, if convictions so easily jettisoned could be dignified as principles, for . . . what? Praying people should pray, and all others should hope: May I never crave anything as much as these people crave membership in the world’s most risible deliberative body.

    November 3 is a binary choice, no matter how much you dislike both sides. So while Will decries the rot on the college campuses and the cancel culture it has enabled, AFAIK, he has not repudiated his June 1 column calling on voters to elect Joe Biden and give the Democrats control of the Senate.

    • #45
  16. Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing) Member
    Sisyphus (hears Xi laughing)
    @Sisyphus

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    In life’s unforgiving arithmetic, we are the sum of our choices. Congressional Republicans have made theirs for more than 1,200 days. We cannot know all the measures necessary to restore the nation’s domestic health and international standing, but we know the first step: Senate Republicans must be routed, as condign punishment for their Vichyite collaboration, leaving the Republican remnant to wonder: Was it sensible to sacrifice dignity, such as it ever was, and to shed principles, if convictions so easily jettisoned could be dignified as principles, for . . . what? Praying people should pray, and all others should hope: May I never crave anything as much as these people crave membership in the world’s most risible deliberative body.

    November 3 is a binary choice, no matter how much you dislike both sides. So while Will decries the rot on the college campuses and the cancel culture it has enabled, AFAIK, he has not repudiated his June 1 column calling on voters to elect Joe Biden and give the Democrats control of the Senate.

    Set your course by the stars, not by the lights of every passing ship.

    — Omar N. Bradley

    • #46
  17. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

     

    First, if a belief doesn’t work, it’s probably wrong. That logic gets me past atheism.

    As far as our understanding of science can determine, entropy is the natural state of the universe. Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.  

    As an agnostic, my problem with atheism is therefore that if its true, its a truth that is inherently worthless and self-defeating, so one might as well believe that which brings the greatest utility.  The problem, of course, is at least three-fold:

    Willful belief is not actually belief at all, and attempts to attain a ‘true’ state of belief is likely a major cause of ideological or religious extremism.

    Utility is subjective at both the personal and societal levels

    Relative utility will often change with the circumstances (again, at both the personal and societal levels).

     

     

    • #47
  18. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    • #48
  19. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith?  Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine.  It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    • #49
  20. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    • #50
  21. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    Practically indistinguishable, hence a very convincing illusion, but enough of a distinction to cause personal discomfort*, and likely social problems when widely believed.

    *There is a though experiment, predating the movie, where one is given the option of being hooked up to a machine like the Matrix, without subsequent knowledge of having done so, with false perceptions of a perfect life being provided for you, even to the point of whatever emotional and psychological needs would best suit your personal happiness.  Would you do it?  My answer is no, my left-leaning friend with Marxist sympathies answered yes…..I suspect that would be a general pattern, albeit with exceptions.

    • #51
  22. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    Practically indistinguishable, hence a very convincing illusion, but enough of a distinction to cause personal discomfort*, and likely social problems when widely believed.

    *There is a though experiment, predating the movie, where one is given the option of being hooked up to a machine like the Matrix, without subsequent knowledge of having done so, with false perceptions of a perfect life being provided for you, even to the point of whatever emotional and psychological needs would best suit your personal happiness. Would you do it? My answer is no, my left-leaning friend with Marxist sympathies answered yes…..I suspect that would be a general pattern, albeit with exceptions.

    Maybe people who answer yes, need to see “Star Trek: Generations.”

    • #52
  23. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    Practically indistinguishable, hence a very convincing illusion, but enough of a distinction to cause personal discomfort*, and likely social problems when widely believed.

    *There is a though experiment, predating the movie, where one is given the option of being hooked up to a machine like the Matrix, without subsequent knowledge of having done so, with false perceptions of a perfect life being provided for you, even to the point of whatever emotional and psychological needs would best suit your personal happiness. Would you do it? My answer is no, my left-leaning friend with Marxist sympathies answered yes…..I suspect that would be a general pattern, albeit with exceptions.

    Maybe people who answer yes, need to see “Star Trek: Generations.”

    Was that the movie where it was said that life had meaning because it ends?  I found it about as comforting or inspiring as that famous poem which said, “Don’t worry about what happens after you die, because you become fertilizer which nourishes grass!”

    Heh.  I’ll get back to the existential angst tomorrow.

    • #53
  24. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    Practically indistinguishable, hence a very convincing illusion, but enough of a distinction to cause personal discomfort*, and likely social problems when widely believed.

    *There is a though experiment, predating the movie, where one is given the option of being hooked up to a machine like the Matrix, without subsequent knowledge of having done so, with false perceptions of a perfect life being provided for you, even to the point of whatever emotional and psychological needs would best suit your personal happiness. Would you do it? My answer is no, my left-leaning friend with Marxist sympathies answered yes…..I suspect that would be a general pattern, albeit with exceptions.

    Maybe people who answer yes, need to see “Star Trek: Generations.”

    Was that the movie where it was said that life had meaning because it ends? I found it about as comforting or inspiring as that famous poem which said, “Don’t worry about what happens after you die, because you become fertilizer which nourishes grass!”

    Heh. I’ll get back to the existential angst tomorrow.

    No, the point I was making was that they said the illusion of existence within “The Nexus” was pointless because it wasn’t real, nothing mattered, nothing “made a difference.”

    • #54
  25. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    kedavis (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    It seems like that might be indistinguishable from “free will” so either way the outcome is the same.

    Electrons have free will, why can’t sentient biological creatures?

    • #55
  26. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    I posted this a week ago, but it fits here: This is another excerpt from George Will’s July 2 column on Cancel Culture:

    Today’s cancel culture — erasing history, ending careers — is inflicted by people experiencing an orgy of positive feelings about themselves as they negate others. This culture is a steamy sauna of self-congratulation: “I, an adjunct professor of gender studies, am superior to U.S. Grant, so there.” Grant promptly freed the slave he received from his father-in-law, and went on to pulverize the slavocracy. Nevertheless . . .

    The cancelers need just enough learning to know, vaguely, that there was a Lincoln who lived when Americans, sunk in primitivism, thought they were confronted with vexing constitutional constraints and moral ambiguities. The cancel culture depends on not having so much learning that it spoils the statue-toppling fun: Too much learning might immobilize the topplers with doubts about how they would have behaved in the contexts in which the statues’ subjects lived.

    …but here’s what Will wrote on June 1:

    In life’s unforgiving arithmetic, we are the sum of our choices. Congressional Republicans have made theirs for more than 1,200 days. We cannot know all the measures necessary to restore the nation’s domestic health and international standing, but we know the first step: Senate Republicans must be routed, as condign punishment for their Vichyite collaboration, leaving the Republican remnant to wonder: Was it sensible to sacrifice dignity, such as it ever was, and to shed principles, if convictions so easily jettisoned could be dignified as principles, for . . . what? Praying people should pray, and all others should hope: May I never crave anything as much as these people crave membership in the world’s most risible deliberative body.

    November 3 is a binary choice, no matter how much you dislike both sides. So while Will decries the rot on the college campuses and the cancel culture it has enabled, AFAIK, he has not repudiated his June 1 column calling on voters to elect Joe Biden and give the Democrats control of the Senate.

    I am with Will.

    There is a third way between the Cancel Culture of some of the Dems, and the Reps who lost their cojones in dealing with Trump.  (Only two Senators found Trump’s shake-down of Ukraine’s president to be wrong, and only Romney found it cause enough to remove Trump, while Lamar Alexander found that Trump’s behavior while wrong, was not enough to remove Trump.  All of the other Senators did not hold their manhood dear [Henry V] and refused to find that Trump’s behavior was less than “perfect.”  Those Republican Senators should rightfully be condemned to minority status as condign punishment, until Trumpism is no longer a force in the party or nation.)

    Given that there are enough Dem Senators with institutional respect for the filibuster, such as Michael Bennet and Diane Feinstein, that will give Mitch the ability to stop truly bad legislation, or to limit its scope.

    • #56
  27. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Gary agrees with George Will.  Is anyone surprised?

    • #57
  28. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):
    Also, humans are organic automatons and free will is an illusion.

    What makes you say that?

    What makes you say otherwise, aside from faith? Sciences says that human personality and decisions, as well as our sense of self and connections with others, are based on our genetic material interacting with external stimuli on both an immediate and cumulative basis-an infinitely complex if-then machine. It is the theoretical existence of the soul as a source of independent, eternal consciousness that provide a non-determinist* explanation for our perceptions and decisions, a capacity to act and exist beyond the limitations of chemistry and physics.

    *or non-random, according to theories I’m not really smart enough to understand, but either way ‘free will’ as we understand it would not exist.

    My point in asking “what makes you say that?” (emphasis on the “makes”) is that, if you’re correct that we have no free will, then something made you say that we have no free will, you had no choice.

    A bigger point is that believing that we have no free will doesn’t “work” – it doesn’t lead to a fulfilling life or allow us to cooperate with others.  Letting people suffer the consequences of their actions makes no sense in such a world; their actions were compelled.  If a belief makes life miserable and, for all practical purposes, unlivable, then it must be wrong.  Or, put another way, if you have to act as if the belief is wrong just to get through the day, then the belief is probably wrong.

    • #58
  29. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    I am with Will.

    There is a third way between the Cancel Culture of some of the Dems, and the Reps who lost their cojones in dealing with Trump. (Only two Senators found Trump’s shake-down of Ukraine’s president to be wrong, and only Romney found it cause enough to remove Trump, while Lamar Alexander found that Trump’s behavior while wrong, was not enough to remove Trump. All of the other Senators did not hold their manhood dear [Henry V] and refused to find that Trump’s behavior was less than “perfect.” Those Republican Senators should rightfully be condemned to minority status as condign punishment, until Trumpism is no longer a force in the party or nation.)

    Given that there are enough Dem Senators with institutional respect for the filibuster, such as Michael Bennet and Diane Feinstein, that will give Mitch the ability to stop truly bad legislation, or to limit its scope.

    Objection!  Assuming facts not in evidence!

    • #59
  30. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    ….

    November 3 is a binary choice, no matter how much you dislike both sides. So while Will decries the rot on the college campuses and the cancel culture it has enabled, AFAIK, he has not repudiated his June 1 column calling on voters to elect Joe Biden and give the Democrats control of the Senate.

    I am with Will.

    There is a third way between the Cancel Culture of some of the Dems, and the Reps who lost their cojones in dealing with Trump. (Only two Senators found Trump’s shake-down of Ukraine’s president to be wrong, and only Romney found it cause enough to remove Trump, while Lamar Alexander found that Trump’s behavior while wrong, was not enough to remove Trump. All of the other Senators did not hold their manhood dear [Henry V] and refused to find that Trump’s behavior was less than “perfect.” Those Republican Senators should rightfully be condemned to minority status as condign punishment, until Trumpism is no longer a force in the party or nation.)

    Given that there are enough Dem Senators with institutional respect for the filibuster, such as Michael Bennet and Diane Feinstein, that will give Mitch the ability to stop truly bad legislation, or to limit its scope.

    Gary, you really think DiFi is going to stand up to Chuck Schumer?

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer opened the door on Tuesday to ending the procedural rule that requires 60 votes to steer most bills through the chamber if Democrats take the Senate and White House in 2020 — a boon to presidential candidates and activists in his party who have called for that change.

    Schumer told reporters that “nothing’s off the table” if Democrats defeat President Donald Trump and take back the Senate in 2020. However, the New York Democrat cautioned that before removing the filibuster for legislation, “our first step is to get back the majority” of the Senate, where Democrats currently control 47 votes to the GOP’s 53 votes.

     

    • #60
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