Why the Left Thinks We’re Evil

 

I think that it’s easier for people on the right to understand that leftists mean well than it is for leftists to understand that people on the right also mean well. In his book, Economics in One Lesson, Henry Hazlitt wrote:

The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.

In Thomas Sowell’s phrase, a good economist must go beyond “stage one” thinking.

Unfortunately, people on the left tend to get stuck at stage one. They see, for example, that a high minimum wage will make minimum-wage workers better off. Additional thought is needed to understand that increasing the cost of low-skilled labor will reduce the demand for that labor.

Even more thought is required to see that the people helped by the increase – those who keep their jobs or can still find jobs after the increase – are likely to be the most employable. That is, they have the most knowledge and experience and they are the least discriminated against. Those hurt by the laws will be the least employable – the least educated, least skilled, and the most discriminated against. In other words, minimum wages help those who need help the least and hurt those who need help the most.

To someone who can’t, or won’t, go beyond stage one thinking, it’s so blindingly obvious that an increased minimum wage will help the poor that they believe that anyone who disagrees must hate poor people – that is, they must be evil. Someone who can see to stage two or three also understands stage one and is unlikely to believe that someone who can’t get beyond stage one is evil.

Moreover, people who truly believe that an election brought evil people into power are more likely to take to the streets than are those who believe that an election merely put stage one thinkers in office.

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  1. Roderic Coolidge
    Roderic
    @rhfabian

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):
    As for the evil man having no rights, so we can “destroy him by any means” – nonsense. Sophomoric tripe.

    They do it all the time.  It’s called the Cancel Culture, Deplatforming Conservatives, Doxxing, and so on.  They get people fired from their jobs, whatever comes to hand.  Remember what they tried to do to Kavanaugh?

    I’m not aware of left wingers being treated that way by right wingers.  It wouldn’t work, anyway.  Try to MeToo the presumptive Democratic nominee and all of a sudden MeToo disappears.  They’ve got principles, and if those become inconvenient they’ve got others.

    • #31
  2. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):

    Roderic (View Comment):

    I think it goes down to intellectual sloth. If your opponent is evil you don’t have consider what he says. You don’t have to engage your brain at all. You don’t even have to consider his rights. You have permission to destroy him by any means necessary.

    I think that’s about the size of it. And frankly, it’s not just the right that calls the left evil. I’ve seen plenty of it going the other way as well.

    You rang?

    I know the opposition, in aggregate, are evil precisely because I have considered what they say and do. If the Left wanted to prove their movement is evil, what more would they need to do than they’ve already done? How many more infants would they need to sacrifice?

    As for the evil man having no rights, so we can “destroy him by any means” – nonsense. Sophomoric tripe. Again, what did we do at Nuremburg? What do we do with child molesters? Think about this, instead of just making things up.

    Ok, I’ll bite.  What’s that to do with what I wrote?

    • #32
  3. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Having customer service departments that are based in India may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the customers.

    Sure it is.  If potential customers are not willing to pay the marginal cost of producing marginal goods, then the producer is benefiting them by not providing them.

    Cutting the workforce to the bare bones either through numbers or number of hours someone’s allowed to work may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the employees.

    That’s not true.  In a free society, if a trade isn’t beneficial to a person, he won’t make it.  So every trade a person makes is beneficial to him.  Every time a voluntary trade is made, an hour of labor for a certain quantity of money,  both the employee and the employer benefit.

     

    • #33
  4. Joshua Bissey Inactive
    Joshua Bissey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Roderic (View Comment):

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):
    As for the evil man having no rights, so we can “destroy him by any means” – nonsense. Sophomoric tripe.

    They do it all the time. It’s called the Cancel Culture, Deplatforming Conservatives, Doxxing, and so on. They get people fired from their jobs, whatever comes to hand. Remember what they tried to do to Kavanaugh?

    I’m not aware of left wingers being treated that way by right wingers. It wouldn’t work, anyway. Try to MeToo the presumptive Democratic nominee and all of a sudden MeToo disappears. They’ve got principles, and if those become inconvenient they’ve got others.

    That’s how they fight (what they think is) evil. It doesn’t follow they fight that way because they have a good/evil framework.

    • #34
  5. Joshua Bissey Inactive
    Joshua Bissey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Spin (View Comment):
    Ok, I’ll bite. What’s that to do with what I wrote?

    Now that I re-read your comment, I’m not sure it does. Though you did agree with what I responded to, so…

    • #35
  6. Weeping Inactive
    Weeping
    @Weeping

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Having customer service departments that are based in India may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the customers.

    Sure it is. If potential customers are not willing to pay the marginal cost of producing marginal goods, then the producer is benefiting them by not providing them.

    Cutting the workforce to the bare bones either through numbers or number of hours someone’s allowed to work may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the employees.

    That’s not true. In a free society, if a trade isn’t beneficial to a person, he won’t make it. So every trade a person makes is beneficial to him. Every time a voluntary trade is made, an hour of labor for a certain quantity of money, both the employee and the employer benefit.

     

    I think we’re defining the word benefit differently.

    • #36
  7. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Does this apply to monopolies?

    • #37
  8. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Does this apply to monopolies?

    Maybe.  Monopolies pop up all the time in free markets, though they rarely last long without government intervention.  Some government monopoly grants – such as patents and copyrights – are generally considered to be beneficial because they reward innovation. 

    However, such protection can be abused by individuals and firms looking to “game” the system. For example, pharmaceutical companies may extend a drug’s patent by making minor changes to its molecular structure, to its dosage, or to the means by which the drug is administered. Significant resources are thus redirected away from developing new drugs and toward making trivial changes to existing ones.

    Companies that pioneer new sales techniques may enjoy a monopoly of sorts until others copy their innovations.  Home Depot, for example, opened the country’s first “big-box” hardware store in 1986, while Lowe’s, Home Depot’s main competitor, didn’t open its first megastore until 1994.

    Alcoa, one of the few monopolies in the United States that lasted without government intervention, had a monopoly on the production of ingot aluminum for decades.  However, the price of aluminum dropped significantly during this time – not because Alcoa was altruistic, but because the company didn’t have a monopoly on substitutes for aluminum such as wood and steel.

    Similarly, during the time that Standard Oil owned most of the nation’s petroleum refining capacity, the quality of oil increased while its price plummeted.  The company wasn’t brought to court for anti-trust violations by its customers, but by competitors who couldn’t match Standard’s efficiency.

    Charges that Standard undersold or bought out its competitors and then raised its prices were simply untrue.  Nor would such a scheme have worked.  The problem with “predatory pricing” strategies is that they create arbitrage opportunities. Rivals can buy up the products being sold below cost and sell them elsewhere for a tidy profit. That’s why it’s rarely done in practice. Here’s a link to the story of how Dow Chemical beat a German bromine cartel with this technique: https://www.investopedia.com/…/dow-chemical-bromine…

    Government-created monopolies are another thing entirely.  As economist Michael Mitchell wrote in his pamphlet The Pathology of Privilege: The Economic Consequences of Government Favoritism:

    [T]he financial bailouts of 2008 were but one example in a long list of privileges that governments occasionally bestow upon particular firms or particular industries. At various times and places, these privileges have included (among other things) monopoly status, favorable regulations, subsidies, bailouts, loan guarantees, targeted tax breaks, protection from foreign competition, and noncompetitive contracts. Whatever its guise, government-granted privilege is an extraordinarily destructive force. It misdirects resources, impedes genuine economic progress, breeds corruption, and undermines the legitimacy of both the government and the private sector.

    • #38
  9. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Joshua Bissey (View Comment):

    I suspect a big secret of the Left’s effectiveness is that they understand politics as good vs evil, rather than a conflict of differing ideas between two groups of well-meaning patriots. I think that’s one reason why they never stop pushing their agenda or trying to punish the evil-doers (you). I think it’s what makes them so good at framing narratives. The other side isn’t just mistaken, they’re also Nazis.

    The Left’s mistake is that they’ve got the wrong polarity. Politics is good vs evil, as they believe it is, but they are “the baddies.” The Right will only prevail if we recognize that it’s an Axis & Allies fight, and we’re fighting the Reich.

    That doesn’t mean our Democratic loved ones are monsters, guilty of war crimes. To further Godwinize this, we didn’t assume every member of the Nazi Party or the German military had committed atrocities. Hence the trials. Some of them are monsters, but some merely vote for the monsters, or follow orders.

    That sounds like victory will require extra-constitutional subjugation. Is it time for that?

    Not in the least. It just means getting serious about using the legal and political system as it was meant to be used. Like, ya know, draining the swamp. For real. It means we would have to start our own campaigns to shame the moral monsters out of businesses and institutions, as they imagine they are doing.

    It means we have to understand the moment of history we’re standing in.

    Fighting the Reich?  That’s crazy.  Then again, there really was Operation Paperclip.

    • #39
  10. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying.  I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    • #40
  11. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Franco (View Comment):
    However, there are multiple games and a myriad of paths to success. 
    The right sees the value in competition and individualism and sees political disagreements as expected.

     

    There are no ordinary people.

    You have never talked to a mere mortal.

    Nations, cultures, arts, civilization—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat.

    But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.

    — C.S. Lewis

    • #41
  12. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying. I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    “Mercantilism” is the belief that a country can enrich itself by promoting exports and discouraging imports.

    As to “hypnotizing” people into buying a product, that might work.  Once.  As William Bernbach, the “father of modern advertising,” said:  A great ad campaign will make a bad product fail faster.

    • #42
  13. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying. I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    “Mercantilism” is the belief that a country can enrich itself by promoting exports and discouraging imports.

    As to “hypnotizing” people into buying a product, that might work. Once. As William Bernbach, the “father of modern advertising,” said: A great ad campaign will make a bad product fail faster.

    “Mercantilism” is the wrong word?  Call it merchantry.

    • #43
  14. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying. I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    “Mercantilism” is the belief that a country can enrich itself by promoting exports and discouraging imports.

    As to “hypnotizing” people into buying a product, that might work. Once. As William Bernbach, the “father of modern advertising,” said: A great ad campaign will make a bad product fail faster.

    “Mercantilism” is the wrong word? Call it merchantry.

    Please define.

    • #44
  15. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Having customer service departments that are based in India may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the customers.

    Sure it is. If potential customers are not willing to pay the marginal cost of producing marginal goods, then the producer is benefiting them by not providing them.

    Cutting the workforce to the bare bones either through numbers or number of hours someone’s allowed to work may help maximize profits, but it’s often not beneficial to the employees.

    That’s not true. In a free society, if a trade isn’t beneficial to a person, he won’t make it. So every trade a person makes is beneficial to him. Every time a voluntary trade is made, an hour of labor for a certain quantity of money, both the employee and the employer benefit.

    I think we’re defining the word benefit differently.

    I am using “benefit someone” to mean “make conditions better for someone than they would have been”.

    It’s consistent with common usage. Let’s agree to this definition, unless you object and want to use a different one.

    Examples: If you and I make a voluntary trade, for example

    • some antibiotics that I own for some money that you own, or
    • some hours of labor, which you have a natural right to give because you own your mind and body, for some money that I own

    then your life is better than it would have been.  I would say that I “benefited” you. My life is better than it would have been. I would say that you “benefited” me.

    • #45
  16. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Does this apply to monopolies?

    Yes, absolutely.  How could anyone question that?

    • #46
  17. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    Does this apply to monopolies?

    Yes, absolutely. How could anyone question that?

    Those who structured American society in the 1800’s would have disagreed with you. When someone through their work, timing, masses of capital not only captures an industry, but the entire surrounding networks, there is a huge danger to the society as a whole. That is how those people who were society structuring people came up with the idea of AntiTrust.

    From time to time, some writers  on ricochet state how this President or that one, say Teddy Roosevelt or Wilson, gave in to the crass and terrorist threats of the Wobblies or others, only they miss the point. If the economic system becomes too heavily weighted in favor of the top one percent of one percent, class revolt will happen. Then our nation would  end up like Russia did in 1917.

    An economic philosophy must never be so sacrosanct that the society which gives birth to it is destroyed by it.

    • #47
  18. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Yeah, I don’t think a monopolist has to respond to market (pricing) signals. Especially if he’s providing essential products/services (fuel oil, for example). 

    • #48
  19. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Yeah, I don’t think a monopolist has to respond to market (pricing) signals. Especially if he’s providing essential products/services (fuel oil, for example).

    @Western  Chauvinist,

    The question is

    Are profits a measure of how much benefit a monopoly is providing to its customers?

    I think you answered a different question.

    Camp

    • #49
  20. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret (View Comment):
    Those who structured American society in the 1800’s would have disagreed with you.

    @CarolJoy,

    Do you?

    Cheers,
    Camp

    • #50
  21. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Yeah, I don’t think a monopolist has to respond to market (pricing) signals. Especially if he’s providing essential products/services (fuel oil, for example).

    @Western Chauvinist,

    The question is

    Are profits a measure of how much benefit a monopoly is providing to its customers?

    I think you answered a different question.

    Camp

    So a law or regulation against price-fixing that reduces profits is denying some additional customer benefits.

    • #51
  22. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Yeah, I don’t think a monopolist has to respond to market (pricing) signals. Especially if he’s providing essential products/services (fuel oil, for example).

    @Western Chauvinist,

    The question is

    Are profits a measure of how much benefit a monopoly is providing to its customers?

    I think you answered a different question.

    Camp

    So a law or regulation against price-fixing that reduces profits is denying some additional customer benefits.

    Any coercive measure (including a law) forbidding any voluntary exchange denies the two people who would have made it exactly the benefit that they would have received from it, had they been free to make it.

    • #52
  23. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying. I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    “Mercantilism” is the belief that a country can enrich itself by promoting exports and discouraging imports.

    As to “hypnotizing” people into buying a product, that might work. Once. As William Bernbach, the “father of modern advertising,” said: A great ad campaign will make a bad product fail faster.

    “Mercantilism” is the wrong word? Call it merchantry.

    Please define.

    You expect me to define a word I just made up? That’s too much! This requires me to think!

    What I meant by “mercantilism” (and I apologize for misusing the word) or merchantry was the barest, cleanest experience of buying and selling, of engaging with a merchant; the idea that all buying is, at its finest, voluntary and when all is done, the seller is always doing nothing more than supplying a need or a want at a negotiated and mutually-agreed price.

    • #53
  24. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):
    Mark Camp

    Weeping (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    In a free market, if I maximize profits, I’m doing the best I can to benefit my customers, employees, and shareholders.

    I’m don’t think this is necessarily true. A company that’s focused on maximizing its profits isn’t necessarily doing things that benefit its customers and employees.

    Sure it is. Profits are a measure of how much benefit it is providing to its customers.

    I tend to disagree with the clean purity of the mercantilism you are justifying. I knew a little 1- or 2-year-old girl whose very first words were “Micky Dee”s!!!”

    If you can hypnotize people into desiring your product, and then you sell it to them, are you really providing a benefit to your customers?

    As a Christian, I believe that luring a person into temptation is not benefiting him, but harming him.  Here I am using the word “benefit”as Christ did.  I am making a moral judgement.

    When I speak of “benefit” as a economic scientist, I mean something very different.  I am necessarily eschewing moral judgement, which is by definition unscientific.  A scientist can never discover any moral truth.  Morality is completely outside of the domain of a scientist.

    • #54
  25. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    As a Christian, I believe that luring a person into temptation is not benefiting him, but harming him. Here I am using the word “benefit”as Christ did. I am making a moral judgement.

    When I speak of “benefit” as a economic scientist, I mean something very different. I am necessarily eschewing moral judgement, which is by definition unscientific. A scientist can never discover any moral truth. Morality is completely outside of the domain of a scientist.

    Does the same schism hold true for politics?

    But I would argue that even science, or the pursuit of science, or the pursuit of knowledge is not morally isolated.  Scientists are moral creatures, and their endeavors are never morally void.

    • #55
  26. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Yeah, I don’t think a monopolist has to respond to market (pricing) signals. Especially if he’s providing essential products/services (fuel oil, for example).

    @Western Chauvinist,

    The question is

    Are profits a measure of how much benefit a monopoly is providing to its customers?

    I think you answered a different question.

    Camp

    So a law or regulation against price-fixing that reduces profits is denying some additional customer benefits.

    Any coercive measure (including a law) forbidding any voluntary exchange denies the two people who would have made it exactly the benefit that they would have received from it, had they been free to make it.

    I was born a citizen of the United States so until recently I never had to consider too seriously the economic choices relative to political choices. So I remain a ‘constitutionalist’ which means I support a mostly free market domestically and an international or foreign trade market constrained only by measures deemed necessary to maintain national sovereignty and our national interests under that same Constitution. The federal government has powers enumerated within the Constitution to legislate and regulate interstate commerce and foreign trade.

    When I do an economic or market transaction, regardless of which side of the transaction I am on, I don’t consider that act as isolated from other considerations such as the role of our Constitution government described above. So I am not really of a mind to argue this in a pure theoretical framework without empirical influences and effects.

    • #56
  27. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    As a Christian, I believe that luring a person into temptation is not benefiting him, but harming him. Here I am using the word “benefit”as Christ did. I am making a moral judgement.

    When I speak of “benefit” as a economic scientist, I mean something very different. I am necessarily eschewing moral judgement, which is by definition unscientific. A scientist can never discover any moral truth. Morality is completely outside of the domain of a scientist.

    Does the same schism hold true for politics?

    No. Morality is completely inside the domain of politics.

    Scientists are moral creatures…

     I didn’t write clearly.  A scientist as such never asserts any moral truth. When a person is curious about a scientific question, he is never curious about a moral question.  When he proposes an answer, it is never a moral assertion. 

    That means that a scientific question is, by definition, a question about how things are, not how they ought to be.  A moral question is, by definition, a question about how things ought to be, regardless of how they are.

    “What is the mass of this sample?” is not a moral question.  The sample has no ability to have a mass that is morally good, nor a mass that is morally wrong.  That is a scientific question.  You are right that every person acts sometimes as a scientist and sometimes as a moral creature, but you are missing my point.

     

    • #57
  28. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    As a Christian, I believe that luring a person into temptation is not benefiting him, but harming him. Here I am using the word “benefit”as Christ did. I am making a moral judgement.

    When I speak of “benefit” as a economic scientist, I mean something very different. I am necessarily eschewing moral judgement, which is by definition unscientific. A scientist can never discover any moral truth. Morality is completely outside of the domain of a scientist.

    Does the same schism hold true for politics?

    No. Morality is completely inside the domain of politics.

    Scientists are moral creatures…

    I didn’t write clearly. A scientist as such never asserts any moral truth. When a person is curious about a scientific question, he is never curious about a moral question. When he proposes an answer, it is never a moral assertion.

    That means that a scientific question is, by definition, a question about how things are, not how they ought to be. A moral question is, by definition, a question about how things ought to be, regardless of how they are.

    “What is the mass of this sample?” is not a moral question. The sample has no ability to have a mass that is morally good, nor a mass that is morally wrong. That is a scientific question. You are right that every person acts sometimes as a scientist and sometimes as a moral creature, but you are missing my point.

     

    Yes, perhaps I am splitting hairs here, but there is a moral difference between the weatherman who gives a daily forecast and the climate scientist who predicts the end of the world as we know it — both are statistically based, but one is much broader and intricate and requires greater presuppositions than the other.  Economics is more like the climate than the weather, and the amount of faith it takes to make predictions is greater.

    • #58
  29. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    As a Christian, I believe that luring a person into temptation is not benefiting him, but harming him. Here I am using the word “benefit”as Christ did. I am making a moral judgement.

    When I speak of “benefit” as a economic scientist, I mean something very different. I am necessarily eschewing moral judgement, which is by definition unscientific. A scientist can never discover any moral truth. Morality is completely outside of the domain of a scientist.

    Does the same schism hold true for politics?

    No. Morality is completely inside the domain of politics.

    Scientists are moral creatures…

    I didn’t write clearly. A scientist as such never asserts any moral truth. When a person is curious about a scientific question, he is never curious about a moral question. When he proposes an answer, it is never a moral assertion.

    That means that a scientific question is, by definition, a question about how things are, not how they ought to be. A moral question is, by definition, a question about how things ought to be, regardless of how they are.

    “What is the mass of this sample?” is not a moral question. The sample has no ability to have a mass that is morally good, nor a mass that is morally wrong. That is a scientific question. You are right that every person acts sometimes as a scientist and sometimes as a moral creature, but you are missing my point.

     

    Yes, perhaps I am splitting hairs here, but there is a moral difference between the weatherman who gives a daily forecast and the climate scientist who predicts the end of the world as we know it — both are statistically based, but one is much broader and intricate and requires greater presuppositions than the other. Economics is more like the climate than the weather, and the amount of faith it takes to make predictions is greater.

    I completely disagree.  In my view, there is not moral difference between any two statements about facts about physical reality.  There is no moral difference between the statement of the weatherman, “I think that the high today will be 60 degrees” and a statement of a climate scientist “I think that the average temperature in 100 years will be 15 degrees higher than today.”

    You are confusing science with morality.

     

    • #59
  30. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    So I am not really of a mind to argue this in a pure theoretical framework without empirical influences and effects.

    I don’t understand what “arguing this in a pure theoretical framework without empirical influences and effects” means.  Could you give a simple example?

    • #60
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